20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

Titan88 said:

Just did this tonight and decided to add a pic for comparison. Last night, I made caramel syrup (left). That shade, which I guess is around 60L, took about an hour of boiling. Using this method, the one on the right, in my opinion, got to the deep amber level. I already smells like Nutella. I'm getting nutmeg, brownies and minimal marshmallow, but it still hasn't cooled down yet. As soon as it cools, I'll edit this post with smell and tasting notes. Thanks to the OP for the method. I thought the ammonia smell that fills the kitchen when boiling would ruin the batch once it cools. IT DOESN'T!

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You cooked it under vacuum? At what temp

What do you mean? I didn't say anything about a vacuum.

My bad thought you where referring to my post about Sous-vide


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jtp137 said:

My bad thought you where referring to my post about Sous-vide


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Oh. Nah. Found out why it crystallized though. Low water content. Warm the jar up in hot water and melt the rocks then stir in water. Voilà

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I mistakenly picked up yeast energizer instead of DAP . Can I use this to make the syrup? It contains: Diammonium Phosphate, springcell, magnesium sulfate.

That's what I used the last time I made a batch and it worked fine.

Did double cooked #5. It stinks as ......but half of tee spoone did this to my herbal tee. And yes, I drink my tee from pint glass



Making dubbel with it and I will call it HellDubb.

I've used this a couple times in beer. SWMBO hates when I make it because of the smell, but every time I make it, I'm shocked that so many different flavors can come out of sugar, water and a little chemistry, but I don't question it.

I've seen some criticism that this isn't the 'right' way to make the syrup, but tradition be damned, this stuff is tasty and I'm using it for my "Shimmy and Shake" (Chimay blue approximation), and I'm sure it'll do exactly what I need it to.

I also really like it in coffee.

Subscribed, need to make this stuff

Those that actually brewed with it. Is it as fermentable as the store bought syups


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I'm not sure if anyone is still following this post anymore. Seems like people are having a lot of issues making this. I am looking for a clear candi sugar for in my Belgian Strong Golden Ale. If i am correct, and please tell me if i am not i should be following this recipe.
Rose (250F)
-Clear, slightly rosy color. This syrup is sweet and sugary with very little to no character flavors.
2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
1/2 tsp DAP
1/2 Cup Water
I should be able to add sugar, water and the DAP, no stiring and bring temperature up to 250F slowly.
once i reach that temperature, i should slowly stir in the second addition of water while bringing the temperature back up to 240F. Then take the pot off the stove and put it in a ice bath. Done, right?
And doing this, i will have syrup, right?

I read an article and this is the process. We are just trying to make inverted sugar, right?
Invert sugar
Yield: 2 lb 3 oz (1 kilo)
4 Cups + 6 Tablespoon (2 lb 3 oz) Extra fine granulated sugar 1 kg
2 cups (16 fl oz) Water 480 ml
¼ Teaspoon ( ¼ tsp) Cream of tartar or citric acid 1 g
If you have an induction cook top or an electric stove use these options instead of gas. In a non reactive saucepan stir to a boil the sugar, water and cream of tartar (Or citric acid).
Once the mixture boils wash away any sugar crystals stuck to the side of the pan with pastry brush dipped in water. Any additional water added to the pan from this process, has no effect on the final outcome.
On medium heat without stirring boil the mixture to 236°F (114°C). Remove from heat and cover the pan. Let cool at room temperature. Store in a refrigerator. Invert sugar will last at least 6 moths.
- See more at: http://www.chefeddy.com/2009/11/invert-sugar/#sthash.ilP4BeGz.dpuf

If you're only making clear syrup, just add table sugar right in the boil. No need to go to all the trouble of making the invert syrup

I made a 5.5lbs of it from 4lbs of sugar. I aimed for 290F but I hit 300F by accident

Things I observed.

1. Use a tall pot so when you do this ( avoid splattering hot liquid)
2. It took a while to get to 270 but takes little to get from 270 to 290
3. Once I added the cooling off water it turn into a syrup

So instead of getting 290 as I wanted I got 300. It's very nice, dry fruit note and chocolate, little bitter. It made my beer almost a stout in color.

Anyone can tell me how can I figure out the equivalent of SRM for 290 and 300 ?

Thanks!

Question that may have been answered a hundred times in the body of this thread already: using LD Carlson yeast energizer in place of DAP because the latter isn't available here. What ratio should I use when converting the recipe? Basically, I'm wondering what percentage of the stuff I'm using is actual Di-ammonium phosphate, as compared to the DAP from the recipe.

SnickASaurusRex said:

Here's a pic of the color stages.

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Quoting this post for the photo...

I did a half-batch for an upcoming brew, using LD Carlson yeast energizer and cutting all the numbers in half for the 290 version. At 290 and after the addition of 3/4 cup of water, I was in the 260-270 range for color. I had to give it a second pass ala Sugar #5 to get it up to the right color. Anyone else have this experience?

The color development seems to be quite dependent on how quickly you are raising the temp. You might want to lower the flame a bit and take it a bit slower.

Just made this exactly per the recipe and using a thermapen for temps. Here's what I got. Any ideas what went wrong? I was going for 280.

You should have seen the color change as the temps went up. Did you have a thick syrup that was bubbling? It should thicken into a thicker syrup as it cools. Did the probe pick up the reading from the bottom of the pan and not the liquid?

The color was right and it looked great. I took it off the heat and let it cool and this is what I ended up with. I temped it the whole way with a thermapen in the liquid and make sure to not touch the pan. 90 minutes and 2 pounds of sugar wasted. I'm frustrated. I'm also at a point in my life where buying 2 pounds of D2 for $16 is worth it for the 90 minutes and aggravation.

I don't know how it would lose color as it cooled. My first thought was altitude when I saw your location but that doesn't really make sense either. At this point the sugar isn't wasted. It can be reheated for as second attempt. Not sure I'd do that though given the results.

elkshadow said:

The color was right and it looked great. I took it off the heat and let it cool and this is what I ended up with. I temped it the whole way with a thermapen in the liquid and make sure to not touch the pan. 90 minutes and 2 pounds of sugar wasted. I'm frustrated. I'm also at a point in my life where buying 2 pounds of D2 for $16 is worth it for the 90 minutes and aggravation.

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I gave up after mine were not that fermentable



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I've made Edwort's Apfelwein a few times with 2# of plain sugar. I'm going to make 2# of the Light Amber (270F) sugar this time and see how it turns out.

Has anyone done the same?

Apfelwein is actually what I was trying to make this for. In the end I just used plain sugar. I am using 3711 on it though so that should be interesting.

Let me know how it goes

elkshadow said:

Apfelwein is actually what I was trying to make this for. In the end I just used plain sugar. I am using 3711 on it though so that should be interesting.

Let me know how it goes

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Making 2# of the 270F sugar went smoothly per the instructions in post #1. I kept the heat low on my gas stove (2 out of 6) and needed to adjust the heat up a little at the very end to get to 270F. The color was very similar to the pic posted early in this thread (comparison below).

The hardest part was getting the cooled & thick (gel-like) sugar mixed into the 5 gallons of cooled (65F) apple juice. I sanitized a spatula and incrementally used the juice mixed into the pot with the sugar to dissolve the sugar before transferring to the carboy. I think this is better than putting the sugar syrup into the carboy warm and maybe having it crystallize later. I aerate with a drill & paddles, this helped sugar clumps dissolve too.

Edit: After reading more posts, I will skip heating once the 2nd amount of water is added to see if the product stays more liquid.

Use these recipes all the time now... DAP smells like cat piss ... worth it tho

I have made three Dark Strongs with 10 to 25% sugar cooked to 285. I tried two different yeasts and mashed at 148 to 150. I cant get the FG lower than 1.024 every time I buy the syrup it goes down to 1.012

Does anybody have any other attenuation issues


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jtp137 said:

I have made three Dark Strongs with 10 to 25% sugar cooked to 285. I tried two different yeasts and mashed at 148 to 150. I cant get the FG lower than 1.024 every time I buy the syrup it goes down to 1.012

Does anybody have any other attenuation issues


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Someone else, or maybe you, did bring this up earlier in this thread.

jtp137 said:

I have made three Dark Strongs with 10 to 25% sugar cooked to 285. I tried two different yeasts and mashed at 148 to 150. I cant get the FG lower than 1.024 every time I buy the syrup it goes down to 1.012

Does anybody have any other attenuation issues


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i just used 2.5lbs of the double cooked 290F in a quad that went from 1.095 to 1.014. I've used 2lbs of the 270F in a tripel that went from 1.085 to 1.007. I haven't had any attenuation issues with it.

Hi, I made a batch of deep amber 290 and it turned out a bit mor coffee like than I expected there were some raisins and plumbs but not that much and also the color was black like coke or something, have I done something wrong? I tried to be very careful, should I lower the amount of DAP? I measured the temperature with two thermometers and I didn't let it go over 290 but I expected a lot more of red color

LuisLozano13 said:

Hi, I made a batch of deep amber 290 and it turned out a bit mor coffee like than I expected there were some raisins and plumbs but not that much and also the color was black like coke or something, have I done something wrong? I tried to be very careful, should I lower the amount of DAP? I measured the temperature with two thermometers and I didn't let it go over 290 but I expected a lot more of red color

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When I've made these syrups, I've found that if you taste the syrup, it is much stronger, and not what's expected, but when you dilute it with water (like you will when you use it) different flavors come out. If you haven't tried that, give it a shot and see if the raisins and plums come out.

I did two attempts at the 260 this weekend per directions and using DAP both ended up being the consistency of half crystylized honey. Reading all 39 pages, I have three thoughts: 1, need to use more water when cooling down; 2, hold below boiling to make sure all sugar is in solution so there are not crystals available post boil as nucleation points before going higher; 3, hold at 250 for 30 minutes to make sure full inversion has occured. I suppose I could check my temp probe too. Any other thoughts?

DSmith said:

Making 2# of the 270F sugar went smoothly per the instructions in post #1. I kept the heat low on my gas stove (2 out of 6) and needed to adjust the heat up a little at the very end to get to 270F. The color was very similar to the pic posted early in this thread (comparison below).



The hardest part was getting the cooled & thick (gel-like) sugar mixed into the 5 gallons of cooled (65F) apple juice. I sanitized a spatula and incrementally used the juice mixed into the pot with the sugar to dissolve the sugar before transferring to the carboy. I think this is better than putting the sugar syrup into the carboy warm and maybe having it crystallize later. I aerate with a drill & paddles, this helped sugar clumps dissolve too.



Edit: After reading more posts, I will skip heating once the 2nd amount of water is added to see if the product stays more liquid.



View attachment 215324

View attachment 215325

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I transferred my apfelwein with the 270F sugar to a secondary. The gravity was 1.000, very close to past versions using corn sugar (0.998). The sugar was very fermentable. I didn't have any extra to sample. It'll be 6 months before I bottle.

The 270F sugar may not have been fully inverted, but the yeast didn't seem to care.





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Bensiff said:

I did two attempts at the 260 this weekend per directions and using DAP both ended up being the consistency of half crystylized honey. Reading all 39 pages, I have three thoughts: 1, need to use more water when cooling down; 2, hold below boiling to make sure all sugar is in solution so there are not crystals available post boil as nucleation points before going higher; 3, hold at 250 for 30 minutes to make sure full inversion has occured. I suppose I could check my temp probe too. Any other thoughts?

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You are on the right track. I make real caramels as well and the biggest thing there is to wipe down the sides of the pot. If stirred too much afterward or if even a single crystal remains it becomes the seed crystal for the rest to start forming. Since this is usually going into a brew and liquid volume/concentration isn't as important, I vote for a touch more cooling water at the end, and only bringing back to a boil, not 240°F.

p.s. Any leftovers put into a clean vinegar/oil style bottle with a spout makes a great syrup to add to coffee. Just watch out as it can mold over the months.


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I just made the dark amber and it came out beautiful..I cut the recipe in half and it came out perfect..Looks just like the color you have posted for 290 degrees..Make sure your thermometer is good and it makes it itself..Got to 290 and put in 3/4 cup of water which took it down to 219 then let it go back to 240 and flame out..Total time on a medium heat was 20 to 25 minutes..

Awesome..stoked to brew an amber ale and toss this in..GREAT recipe!!

Sorry to side track this thread, but is this DAP the correct DAP? I was concerned as they were talking about gardening with it and nothing about ingesting it. I would assume it's the same, but just want to play it safe and not poison myself or my friends!

Thanks!

Chris7687 said:

Sorry to side track this thread, but is this DAP the correct DAP? I was concerned as they were talking about gardening with it and nothing about ingesting it. I would assume it's the same, but just want to play it safe and not poison myself or my friends!

Thanks!

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If you read the description on that link it says brewing and winemaking are uses for it. I would assume that it's the same stuff

That it does, sorry. Just skimmed the description. Thanks! Here goes my second attempt, used Wyeast Yeast Nutrient the first time which did not end up working.

I've been reading everything I can find this evening about candi sugar -- including about half of this thread before I jumped to the end. There's a lot of confusion about invert sugar vs. caramel (pyrolyzed sugar) vs. the browning (Maillard) reaction. The more I read, the confused-er I get, but it's coming into focus. This weekend I will try making dark amber (red) candi syrup because I'll be brewing a Dubbel soon.

A few things that I've figured out:

• You can make caramel with just sucrose by heating it without water to about 330 degrees. Look up "burnt sugar syrup" You do the same thing with water and they call it "caramel syrup"
  
• You normally make invert sugar by boiling sucrose in water with a little bit of acid. Presumption: If you add white sugar directly to your brew kettle at the beginning of the boil, it should invert because the wort is acidic; there's no need to make white invert sugar ahead of time.
  
• Fructose caramelizes easier than sucrose or glucose. That might be why everyone thinks you need to invert the sugar. I have no idea at this point whether the sugar needs to be inverted.
  
• Sugar will invert without adding an acid, it just takes longer.
  
• Acid inhibits Maillard browning, and base really really increases it (that's why bagels and pretzels are boiled in lye)
  
• DAP contains nitrogen, but I think more importantly it is a base and raises the pH to where browning can occur. I don't know if the ammonium stands in for amino acids in the reaction, or if it's just trace amino acid impurities in the sugar that brown.

Real Belgian candi sugar is supposed to be made from beet sugar with no additives. (I read that somewhere.) No acids, no bases, no salts, no malt extract. Just sugar and water (which is then boiled away.) Here's how I think they do it: their beet sugar is refined, but it's not as highly refined as our granulated sugar. It still has traces of proteins and amino acids. Also the refining process leaves it with high pH. So they boil the sugar and the proteins brown, and they keep boiling it and the sugar caramelizes, and all that is dependent on the impurities that our white sugar doesn't have.

We've been borrowing science from candy makers, but perhaps we should be borrowing from bakers instead. I will post my untested recipe in a follow-up post in a few minutes. And in a few days I will post whether it worked or not.

Sorry for such a long previous post.

Here's what I came up with, combining everything I read on the Internet today. I hope it works:

UNTESTED RECIPE FOR DARK CANDI SYRUP​

Combine 1 pound sugar, 1 rounded tsp bread flour, and 1/2 cup water in a heavy saucepan. Heat to 255-275°F (use a candy thermometer) and hold at that temperature for 20 minutes. [this hold time is for some of the sugar to invert]

Add 2M sodium hydroxide solution a drop at a time to start the browning reaction. [I don't know how many drops yet] There should be an almost immediate color change. Continue cooking at 275°F (add small amounts of cold water if necessary to keep the temperature from rising) until the color turns dark amber and then red. This should go pretty fast. For darker candi syrup, raise temperature to 300-330° until the desired color is achieved. This is the sugar caramelizing. Don't go any hotter or it will burn. When it reaches the desired color, add another half a cup of water -- be careful, it will sputter and pop -- to make a syrup. Simmer and stir just until it all dissolves, and when cool store in a glass jar. It shouldn't need refrigeration.

2M sodium hydroxide solution: Add 8 grams of food-grade or reagent grade lye to 100 ml of distilled water. (Red Devil lye is close enough for me) Store in a tightly closed bottle. If you can't find high enough grade lye, slaked lime (pickling lime) should work but it might take more.

The flour is to supply proteins for the Maillard reaction. The starch should convert to dextrin.

I believe the Belgians use beet sugar simply because it's cheap and available there, not because there's any detectable difference between it and cane sugar.