Stone Pale Ale - grain to bottle in four days?

Fellow Brew Dudes,
I just took a tour of the Stone brewery, which was awesome; however, during the tour the guide said that their pale ale went from grain to bottle in four days. A few fellow home brewers and I asked the tour guide, who was quite knowledgeable but clearly not a brewer, how this was possible and she did not have a good answer. So I put it to you - how can commercial breweries turn out beer this quickly?

most likely-- a ton of healthy yeast, great temperature controls and a filter!

I thought that was the time table for most large breweries.

jtejedor said:

I thought that was the time table for most large breweries.

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Not even just large scale but brewpubs and the like

It is definitely yeast pitch rate and thus short lag times...using a highly flocculent yeast like they do helps also. That said, I'm a brewer at a 100,000+ bbl a year brewery and we don't get any of our beers out that fast. We won't even crash cool tanks until at least day six of fermentation depending on gravity readings. Commercial breweries can def do it more quickly than on a Homebrew scale, but four days grain to package is really fast!

I started a similar thread a while back, although was wondering how they could do it in twelve days, nevermind four.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/commercial-brewery-fermentation-conditioning-timeframes-217670/

Anyone have an idea of what a lot of yeast is in home brew terms to get fermentation down to commercial brewery turnaround times?

If you pitch, say, two packs of dry yeast and have the ability to cold crash, is crashing after around 6-7 days and kegging a day or two later going to give the same results as the same recipe would if it was primaried for three to four weeks at room temps?

You have to remember that Stone has everything completely optimized and repeatable. That being said, it is possible for homebrewers to have similar turnarounds. Without dredging up the old "long primary" debate, the key is pitching the right amount of healthy yeast, oxygen and having some way to remove the yeast and particulates such as a filter or centrifuge, or both as I am sure Stone has.

With most high-floccing English yeasts the fermentation is complete within 3-4 days for an average gravity beer as long as you have healthy yeast(this is the key).

There are two school of thought among homebrewers: Those who believe that they should leave the beer on the yeast for 3-4 weeks and those who operate in a manner closer to how commercial breweries do it. I align with the commercial way of doing things to a point. Leaving the beer on the yeast for 3-4 weeks will make fine beer. Whether it is better is much debated. Focusing on perfecting your fermentation techniques will help you turn beers around quicker. I can turn around most English ales from grain to keg in under 10 days easily.

The mrmalty.com pitching rates are fine for turning around beers quickly, but you have to have healthy yeast. Pitching the correct amount of yeast is worthless if half of that yeast has poor vitality. This is the biggest difference between what a commercial brewery is doing and what is done by a homebrewer who may brew once or twice a month. Their yeast is ready to rock from beer to beer every couple of days, rather than sitting for extended periods of time. Just a week or two makes a huge difference in yeast health if you are trying to ferment like the best commercial breweries.

-Stone has giant 400bbl fermenters, the pressure from that many gallons of wort on yeast will suppress ester formation.
-Because of above, they can get a clean fermentation character at 72*F.
-Stone uses a highly flocing english yeast (most sources say it's WLP007 or something close)
-The warm temp combined with yeast that ferments out quick and flocs quickly means they can probably go from grain to complete fermentation in 2-3 days. Carbonate it on the way to the brite tank. Spend one day cold crashed in the brites, and off to the bottle.

It's completely feasible for a brewery of their size and capacity.

Is there any practical way to filter beer at home? Is it necessary? Could a person boil a medim-low gravity wort, throw a smack-pack into a liter of nutrient, give it a couple of days, pitch, then siphon off and keg a few days later? A nice drinkable ale, ready within a week, would be awesome.

BrewMU said:

Is there any practical way to filter beer at home? Is it necessary? Could a person boil a medim-low gravity wort, throw a smack-pack into a liter of nutrient, give it a couple of days, pitch, then siphon off and keg a few days later? A nice drinkable ale, ready within a week, would be awesome.

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There are home filtering setups, but you need to be able to keg. If you use very highly flocculant english strains, cold crash and fine, 7 days from grain to keg is very much a possibility.

Everyone:
4 days "grain to glass" is not technically correct for Stone Pale Ale. The primary fermentation takes about 4 days, after which we chill the tank and age for 5-6 days at 34 dF. Pretty standard fermentation and aging time for a beer of that strength.
We'll get clarification to our tour guides ASAP.
Most of our ales are 10-11 days,, dry-hopped ales a bit longer-14-21 days.
Hope that helps clarify things a bit.
Mitch Steele

Is there any practical way to filter beer at home?

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http://www.midwestsupplies.com/midwest-beer-clarity-filter-system.html

I just picked one of these up around a month ago. I works really nice.

Mitch - thanks for the reply. One of the great things about HBT is having pros like you answering our questions.

One more question: when you dry hop beer at Stone do you transfer the beer to a secondary, or do you just add the hops to the primary?

MitchAtStone said:

Everyone:
4 days "grain to glass" is not technically correct for Stone Pale Ale. The primary fermentation takes about 4 days, after which we chill the tank and age for 5-6 days at 34 dF. Pretty standard fermentation and aging time for a beer of that strength.
We'll get clarification to our tour guides ASAP.
Most of our ales are 10-11 days,, dry-hopped ales a bit longer-14-21 days.
Hope that helps clarify things a bit.
Mitch Steele

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Wait, what! Not 6 weeks!!!

707Brew said:

Mitch - thanks for the reply. One of the great things about HBT is having pros like you answering our questions.

One more question: when you dry hop beer at Stone do you transfer the beer to a secondary, or do you just add the hops to the primary?

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Uh oh...

Cheers

Oh BTW, can we get the recipe for Arrogant Bastard too? ;-)

Most of our ales are 10-11 days,, dry-hopped ales a bit longer-14-21 days.

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Thanks Mitch. That's about the same as I do (plus a few days because I'm not in no hurry.)

MitchAtStone said:

Everyone:
4 days "grain to glass" is not technically correct for Stone Pale Ale. The primary fermentation takes about 4 days, after which we chill the tank and age for 5-6 days at 34 dF. Pretty standard fermentation and aging time for a beer of that strength.
We'll get clarification to our tour guides ASAP.
Most of our ales are 10-11 days,, dry-hopped ales a bit longer-14-21 days.
Hope that helps clarify things a bit.
Mitch Steele

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Wow, sweet. Thanks for all the info as well as all the great beer.

smizak said:

Wait, what! Not 6 weeks!!!

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LOL! Revvy will not be pleased!!!! :cross:

jfr1111 said:

There are home filtering setups, but you need to be able to keg. If you use very highly flocculant english strains, cold crash and fine, 7 days from grain to keg is very much a possibility.

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Umm....not true....you can certainly filter with fining agents and not keg.

Using WLP002 or WLP007, I can go from grain to glass in 10 days or so, with a fully carbed and very bright beer (I keg): 7 days in primary; keg it up, shake for 10 min at 30psi, let keg sit for a day with 30psi at 40F, release pressure, set to 13psi and leave for a couple days (to let particulate settle out); pour off pint with junk; drink!!!

Other yeasts take longer, but pretty much only use these 2 because they kill

Hope that helps. Cheers!!

We use a uniting process, so when we dry hop, we do it in the same tank. We'll chill the beer from 72 to 62 after primary, get some yeast to collect in the cone so we can remove it, and then add the hops via a mixing tank.

And no, I can't provide Arrogant Bastard Ale recipe or ingredients ;-)

mcaple1 said:

Umm....not true....you can certainly filter with fining agents and not keg.

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That would NOT be filtering...

MitchAtStone said:

We use a uniting process, so when we dry hop, we do it in the same tank. We'll chill the beer from 72 to 62 after primary, get some yeast to collect in the cone so we can remove it, and then add the hops via a mixing tank.

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Thanks, Mitch. It's always interesting to see how the process changes with commercial quantities. I'll hold all further questions until I take the tour again.

Cheers!

emjay said:

That would NOT be filtering...

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its a form of filtering.....clarifying = filtering...it just depends on what level of filtering you are going for. if you are trying to removed 100% of yeast, then yeah....fining agents aren't filtering. but with gelatin/fining agents, there is a filtering aspect to it.

Filtering means passing something through a screen or filtering medium, with particles being removed simply by being physically blocked from also passing through.

And before you try to make a debate out of that (not that you can really debate a fact), it's clearly what the poster meant when he said that you need to keg in order to filter beer, because it's used to remove ALL yeast.

emjay said:

Filtering means passing something through a screen or filtering medium, with particles being removed simply by being physically blocked from also passing through.

And before you try to make a debate out of that (not that you can really debate a fact), it's clearly what the poster meant when he said that you need to keg in order to filter beer, because it's used to remove ALL yeast.

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^ this is correct. Fining is not filtering...

I'm reasonable sure Stone does not filter. Not sure about fining (they probably do.) I see chill haze in their beers. There is nothing is wrong with chill haze in a pale ale except the serving temp. The big problem is not filtering and pasteurizing makes for short shelf life, particularly for average strength ales.

I'm pretty sure Stone runs a centrifuge and a filter system. Most top breweries do contrary to popular homebrewer belief.

They also pasteurize.

Mitch at Stone, thanks for jumping in the conversation to clarify! I emailed about this exact thread last week and you replied with 2 emails in less than 24 hours, classy. now, if only I could get you guys to distribute to the Midwest (Iowa)... Also a classy and fun team at GABF, took the time to explain to my wife and beer newbie friends all the different brews you guys had there and then gave them all a taste of the special pour Old Gaurdian and I was the only one who had the slip from the book signing. You guys rock...

MachineShopBrewing said:

I'm pretty sure Stone runs a centrifuge and a filter system. Most top breweries do contrary to popular homebrewer belief.

They also pasteurize.

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Stone does not pasteurize.

dmckean44 said:

Stone does not pasteurize.

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Are you sure? Every can you brew it episode about arrogant bastard said they do.

scottland said:

Are you sure? Every can you brew it episode about arrogant bastard said they do.

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I heard that one too and I don't know where they are getting it from.

ChadChaney said:

Mitch at Stone, thanks for jumping in the conversation to clarify! I emailed about this exact thread last week and you replied with 2 emails in less than 24 hours, classy. now, if only I could get you guys to distribute to the Midwest (Iowa)... Also a classy and fun team at GABF, took the time to explain to my wife and beer newbie friends all the different brews you guys had there and then gave them all a taste of the special pour Old Gaurdian and I was the only one who had the slip from the book signing. You guys rock...

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Pop up to Minneapolis... plenty of Stone to go around (finally)!

scottland said:

Are you sure? Every can you brew it episode about arrogant bastard said they do.

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The little advert I have for their IPA says:

No Additives
No Chemical Preservatives
No Pasteurization
No Adjuncts (rice/corn)

It's probably 3 years old but I can't imagine they'd just start pasteurizing one day after not doing it the first 17 years.

A little more clarification:
We do centrifuge and do a rough filter on our beers. Most craft brewers our size use a similar setup.
We do NOT pasteurize!

Cheers,
Mitch

MitchAtStone said:

A little more clarification:
We do centrifuge and do a rough filter on our beers. Most craft brewers our size use a similar setup.
We do NOT pasteurize!

Cheers,
Mitch

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:rockin:

Would the amount of yeast used in commercial operations be considered "overpitching" by most homebrew dogma? If so, why are the purported flavors produced by excessive yeast growth not considered 'off flavors", seeing as they don't show up in most commercial operations? Or am I missing something here...

stubbornman said:

:rockin:

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+11