Could use help with persistent infection
- Thread starter gbuttar
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Peroxide that is used for industrial or agricultural use is not the same strength as the stuff you pour on your finger when you get a cut.
It's roughly 10 to 15 times stronger. (30 to 45%) Available at pool supply (if they deal with peroxide pools), hydroponics stores etc,. 1 gallon is about 20 bucks. And it is a bleach.. just a Base instead of an Acid.
It's roughly 10 to 15 times stronger. (30 to 45%) Available at pool supply (if they deal with peroxide pools), hydroponics stores etc,. 1 gallon is about 20 bucks. And it is a bleach.. just a Base instead of an Acid.
shtoive87
Well-Known Member
No one has brought up the ice to cool down the starter. Is this store bought or preboiled? Store bought ice is definitely not guaranteed to be sanitized...
So True. Also, Ice can pick up bacteria etc from your freezer.
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
It was about a year ago so to be honest I can't be positive of what brand of Bleach it was, I think it was Clorox and I do remember my wife had to pick up a few gallons at the store for us to do the Bleach Bomb.
We also were shocked when the Bleach Bomb didn't work, in-fact I was so sure it was going to work that I brewed a 5 gal batch after the bleaching, big mistake on my part, then we switched out all brewing equipment and made mini batches and divided them down and tested old equipment (plastics) in them.
Thats how we figured out the Hydrogen Peroxide worked for sure.
I am still using some of plastic items that were soaked in the Hydrogen Peroxide and we are now around 25 batches down the road.
No infections so far, Knock on Wood, I never want to go thru that again.
Cheers
It was about a year ago so to be honest I can't be positive of what brand of Bleach it was, I think it was Clorox and I do remember my wife had to pick up a few gallons at the store for us to do the Bleach Bomb.
We also were shocked when the Bleach Bomb didn't work, in-fact I was so sure it was going to work that I brewed a 5 gal batch after the bleaching, big mistake on my part, then we switched out all brewing equipment and made mini batches and divided them down and tested old equipment (plastics) in them.
Thats how we figured out the Hydrogen Peroxide worked for sure.
I am still using some of plastic items that were soaked in the Hydrogen Peroxide and we are now around 25 batches down the road.
No infections so far, Knock on Wood, I never want to go thru that again.
Cheers
you should have sent a sample of this infection to five star since their business is based on selling products that kill brewing bugs on contact. you discovered something that should scare five star.
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
I still have about 12 gals of infected beer bottled up, and your right I probably should send a bottle or 2 to Five Star, but in reality and truthfully with everything I have going on I will probably never get around to doing it.
I guess I would have to contact 5 Star first to see if they would even be interested in me sending them a sample.
Cheers
I just had a Homer moment DOH! While cleaning a lid this morning it occured to me that I had never cleaned underneath the little grommet on the lid. I have bleached the lid, Star-saned the lid, but never physically cleaned under the grommet. I have had 2 acetobar infected batches, this could be it?
petey_c
Senior Member
Brewtah, I was thinking that the last time I cleaned my fermenter. I've never taken those gaskets out and cleaned underneath. I suppose it's possible. Now I've got to look into how to get them out without effin them up...
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
I did not discover anything, LOTS of people have infections that StarSan dose nothing to.
:smack:
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
I Never Claimed I found a super bug, You Did, and here is a copy of your statement.
"Quote" made by eastoak, >>> part of the reason i brew everything with the same gear is to see if there really is a superbug out there that can't be defeated by a cleaner and star san. if you have that bug i want it for sure.
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
If you have crickets, us them, go fishing.
gbuttar
Member
Just a quick update
I brewed another IPA, and now after about two weeks in the primary I can see the same signs (came a little quicker this time) of infection - skin (looks like ice sheets) on the beer, sour smell and taste. Everything went very smooth, and I got signs (bubbles) of fermentation with 5 hours, and foam out of my blow-off tube after about 12 hours.
This time:
-using an immersion chiller, I got the wort from flame-out to fermenter in 18 minutes
-used only pre-boiled and then sanitized stainless steel equipment post boil
-did not use a starter
-did not pre-boil top off water (used store bought deer park, for the life of me I couldn't think of a way to pre-boil the water and let it cool without introducing a new infection variable, I trusted that the deer park sanitation practices were better than mine)
-no dry hops, eliminating them (at least for this batch) as a source
My only suspects left:
-airborne (unlikely? I haven't heard of too many people consistently getting airborne infections) - I also turned of my AC/fan on brew day
-top off water (unlikely? I have used deer park spring water every time from a sealed bottle which I dunk/spritzed with star san before adding)
-Glass carboy - the only remaining constant
My only new thought on the glass carboy: I knew the previous owner used to autoclave it and never had infection troubles. Although visually it appears to be in good shape, could the repeated autoclave treatments have caused microscopic fractures (bacteria havens) that my liquid sanitizers aren't reaching?
My plan:
-I'll buy a 3 gallon carboy (found some for only $20), and do a full boil batch (I've been wanting to try AG BIAB anyway, and this well help save some money on beer that may be destined for the drain), this will eliminate my 6 gallon glass carboy and the top of water, leaving just airborne, or me being a complete spaz on overlooking something essential (although based on replies following my initial post, I'm hoping that's not the case).
Any thoughts? Thanks again for all the replies.
I brewed another IPA, and now after about two weeks in the primary I can see the same signs (came a little quicker this time) of infection - skin (looks like ice sheets) on the beer, sour smell and taste. Everything went very smooth, and I got signs (bubbles) of fermentation with 5 hours, and foam out of my blow-off tube after about 12 hours.
This time:
-using an immersion chiller, I got the wort from flame-out to fermenter in 18 minutes
-used only pre-boiled and then sanitized stainless steel equipment post boil
-did not use a starter
-did not pre-boil top off water (used store bought deer park, for the life of me I couldn't think of a way to pre-boil the water and let it cool without introducing a new infection variable, I trusted that the deer park sanitation practices were better than mine)
-no dry hops, eliminating them (at least for this batch) as a source
My only suspects left:
-airborne (unlikely? I haven't heard of too many people consistently getting airborne infections) - I also turned of my AC/fan on brew day
-top off water (unlikely? I have used deer park spring water every time from a sealed bottle which I dunk/spritzed with star san before adding)
-Glass carboy - the only remaining constant
My only new thought on the glass carboy: I knew the previous owner used to autoclave it and never had infection troubles. Although visually it appears to be in good shape, could the repeated autoclave treatments have caused microscopic fractures (bacteria havens) that my liquid sanitizers aren't reaching?
My plan:
-I'll buy a 3 gallon carboy (found some for only $20), and do a full boil batch (I've been wanting to try AG BIAB anyway, and this well help save some money on beer that may be destined for the drain), this will eliminate my 6 gallon glass carboy and the top of water, leaving just airborne, or me being a complete spaz on overlooking something essential (although based on replies following my initial post, I'm hoping that's not the case).
Any thoughts? Thanks again for all the replies.
I still question deer park. May not be on the jug but in the water. Try using tap water. The whole autoclave thing that you mentioned could be suspect as well. Can't say for any certainty but.....
Instead of using the carboy did you try using a plastic fermenter? Could be a cheaper solution/ experiment. 2 - 3 gallon carboys = $40. 1 Plastic fermenter $20.
Just some thoughts. Hope it helps.
Cheers and good luck
Kev
Instead of using the carboy did you try using a plastic fermenter? Could be a cheaper solution/ experiment. 2 - 3 gallon carboys = $40. 1 Plastic fermenter $20.
Just some thoughts. Hope it helps.
Cheers and good luck
Kev
gbuttar
Member
Thanks for the advice - I found a 3 carboy gallon nearby for $25 I think, so I'll probably go with that. I thought about using plastic, but if it doesn't go well, I figured 1 glass carboy is still cheaper than two plastics (if I got another bad batch in a plastic bucket I don't know if I could trust it again, as it would be a new potential source), plus I can get ideal headspace for doing small batches that I can do a full boil on (no top off at all is what I'm shooting for) - my tap water tastes like a swimming pool
Thanks again, I'll post if I figure anything out
Thanks again, I'll post if I figure anything out
have you taken ALL of your gear and given it a thorough cleaning and sanitizing? what type of hoses do you use, silicone or vinyl? any cooled wort going through a ball valve? plastic or glass does not matter as far as cleaning, many people are using plastic with no problems.
gbuttar
Member
I thoroughly clean/sanitize everything anyway, but for this last batch I replaced all my plastics. My thief & funnel are both stainless, and were cleaned, then boiled, and then submerged in fresh star san before use. My glass thermometer was boiled before use, then submerged in star san before use post boil. I cooled with a immersion chiller which was sanitized and then put in at 15 min remaining to sanitize. I use a glass carboy which was bleach bombed (1 cup/gallon) with fresh (new container) of clorox bleach after thorough cleaning/scrubbing/hot soak with oxy clean. My carboy and carboy cap were sanitized with iodophor, rinsed with distilled water and then sanitized with star san and left wet. My silicone blowoff tube was boiled, soaked in star san and assembled wet. I pitched with wyeast smack packs (no starter), and had them soaking in star san until ready to pitch. Fermentation started within 6 hrs.
This covers everything post boil - I did not strain, and dumped directly into the carboy using the SS funnel to eliminate sources (siphoning/nylon bag etc.)
I can't think of anything else to try, that's why I am considering the 3 gal batch - new carboy and no top off water to eliminate those last two - I know both theories are a little out there, but through process of elimination I can't come up with anything else. Airborne is the only other thing I could come up with on top of those. Thanks again for the help.
Warmart
Member
I'm far from experienced, but thought I'd add my 2c. The only thing I see is the Deer Park water. I just can't imagine a glass carboy harboring bacteria, it goes against the main purpose of using glass. I don't think I would add any water to a fermenter unless it's been boiled.
I'm really sorry for what you're going through, I can imagine the frustration but it's good to see you're not letting it deter you.
I'm really sorry for what you're going through, I can imagine the frustration but it's good to see you're not letting it deter you.
Bamsdealer
Well-Known Member
Haven't read through everything, but I suspect changing your carboy will take care of the problem. IMO, they're much tougher to clean and handle than a wide mouth bucket. I'm not convinced they're any "safer" than plastic either. Small chips or porous glass might be hard to detect.. especially through the thick class of a carboy. Hot water and a sponge is all I use to clean my buckets... my carboy requires hot water, a cleaner and good scrubbing just to get rid of the ring on the neck of my secondary. I suspect a primary better bottle or carboy would leave a big crud ring that's even tougher to get at with a bristled brush.
Knock on wood, I'm pushing 50 batches and have used various brands of spring and distilled water on quite a few of those without issue.
I doubt your chiller is the issue, but I'd shine it up and put it in with 30 minutes just to be safe.
Good luck. Trash the carboy and get a new fermenter, whether it be glass, plastic or stainless. Your sanitation isn't the issue...
Knock on wood, I'm pushing 50 batches and have used various brands of spring and distilled water on quite a few of those without issue.
I doubt your chiller is the issue, but I'd shine it up and put it in with 30 minutes just to be safe.
Good luck. Trash the carboy and get a new fermenter, whether it be glass, plastic or stainless. Your sanitation isn't the issue...
How dusty is it in your house? I had persistant peddi infectoon years ago from airborne bacteria.
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
I can't think of anything else to try,
Try HYDROGEN PEROXIDE it works...
Cheers
gbuttar
Member
Thanks again for the advice,
Regarding the Deer Park water and carboy: switching to a new 3 gallon carboy and a full boil brew, I'll eliminate both of those potential sources (for my next batch, not sure when I'll get the chance yet). The small batch should allow my to get a better pitch rate without a starter, eliminating that as source
I don't think my apartment is particularly dusty, anyone know of any quick n dirty checks/rules of thumb for airborne contaminants (ie one that does not involve preparing a growth media and an incubator)
If I get a good batch using the 3 gal full boil, I may try going peroxide on my 5 gallon carboy. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting, I'm thinking that much hydrogen peroxide (I'm assuming 50/50 means a one to one ratio with water to the already diluted "drug store 3%" hydrogen peroxide) will cost more than the 3 gallon carboy, so I figured I'd give it a shot first, plus I can save some money on my next batch using less (or hopefully no) extract
Thanks again for the help, I'll update with results from my next batch
Also - the IPA I made previously which tasted half decent for a week tastes like absolute sour ass now, completely undrinkable
Regarding the Deer Park water and carboy: switching to a new 3 gallon carboy and a full boil brew, I'll eliminate both of those potential sources (for my next batch, not sure when I'll get the chance yet). The small batch should allow my to get a better pitch rate without a starter, eliminating that as source
I don't think my apartment is particularly dusty, anyone know of any quick n dirty checks/rules of thumb for airborne contaminants (ie one that does not involve preparing a growth media and an incubator)
If I get a good batch using the 3 gal full boil, I may try going peroxide on my 5 gallon carboy. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting, I'm thinking that much hydrogen peroxide (I'm assuming 50/50 means a one to one ratio with water to the already diluted "drug store 3%" hydrogen peroxide) will cost more than the 3 gallon carboy, so I figured I'd give it a shot first, plus I can save some money on my next batch using less (or hopefully no) extract
Thanks again for the help, I'll update with results from my next batch
Also - the IPA I made previously which tasted half decent for a week tastes like absolute sour ass now, completely undrinkable
Sad to hear the problem still perseveres. It means something in your equipment is still a source for infection.
Is that IPA bottled or still in the fermentor?
How about that valve on your kettle? How well can you clean that? And the tubing?
Did you cut that bottom star off the airlock? If so it should be sanded or filed fairly smooth to make it sanitizable.
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