1.5 BBL direct fired build

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rtockst

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I'm building a 1.5 BBL single tier system for a nanobrewery I'm starting. We've broke ground and are about to send in the Federal paperwork, so we're getting down to the nitty gritty! Unfortunately, I've found some major flaws in my design. We'll have a 65 gal kettle, and two 75's for the mash and hlt. I've got three 200K BTU low pressure propane burners from tejassmokers Cast Iron High Heat Jet Burner from Tejas Smokers. Tejas Jet Burners have Brass Jet Nozzles . (the 8" ones), and they're supposed to get to max output with 0.5psi propane so I decided to use some honeywells for the mash and hlt.
I've got the stand built, and have all the pipe and fittings.

I've realized, who in the world would direct fire a 1.5bbl system? heating up strike water from room temp would use most of a 20lb cylinder! So, I thought we might just get a tankless water heater (rinnai 96) and use that for the hlt. Thoughts?

But also, I realized the 200K burner will scorch the hell out of my mash. I'll be recirculating the mash just like the brutus. But, the burner is of the multi-jet type. Everyone knows those aren't adjustable in flame size (while keeping a nice clean flame) without plugging some of the jets. The temp probe will be on the output of the mash, so that 200K burner will heat the bottom of the mash so quick that it seems it will end up turning right back off due to the probe being right outside the mash. My solution is possibly to just use a 100K burner under the mash and use the tankless heater for the hlt and the mash. Thoughts?

Also, I'd like to be able to adjust the flame on the burners for smaller batches. But, I can't seem to find anywhere, a low pressure (works with honeywell at 0.5psi) propane burner that has a truly adjustable flame like the banjo burners, that also has a high output of somewhere near 200K BTU's. Suggestions?

I'm starting to think... damn... should have went all electric.
 
I built a 1BBL system almost exactly as you described. I use 200K BTU jet burners with Honeywell electronic ignition and Auber Instruments PID's. The control panel is a gas modification of the panel featured at The Electric Brewery. I have 35 gal Blichmann Boilermaker's for the MLT and HLT with a 55 gal for the Boil Kettle. To heat water faster I just plumbed a hot water supply line from my home hot water heater. It only takes around 30 minutes to heat the 125 degree hot water to 155-170 degrees. To "soften" the direct fired MLT, I raised the MLT off of the frame 3 inches to reduce the heat. I have had no scorching problems after 4 batches. In addition I can heat the 150-165 wort to boil in my kettle in around 40-50 minutes, but I ignite the burner early in the sparge cycle to expedite the process. Finally, I fuel the system with tandem 40lb LP tanks plumbed in series. After 4 batches the tanks are only about half to 2/3 empty. As far as electric is concerned, you would have issues as well as it would likely take 50 plus amps to feed the multiple 5-6K watt elements required to heat such volumes. I calculated the feasibility of going electric, and the heating times were very similar with common residential elements. I cant remember the specific amp requirements, but it was large. You would need industrial elements, and 230-440 service to really shorten the time. I have attached pictures of my build for your review.

DSC00472.jpg


DSC00475.jpg
 
RIMS / HERMS? I'm interested in how you solve this problem

Original plan was a direct fired RIMS, just like the Brutus 10 setup. But, on such a large scale, direct firing becomes quite inefficient in terms of energy costs, and I'm having trouble finding burners to fit what I need.
 
With the thermal mass of a 1.5 bbl grain bill, I'd expect you'd hold temps just fine with just some minor insulation...that's assuming a single infusion mash, though...
 
With the thermal mass of a 1.5 bbl grain bill, I'd expect you'd hold temps just fine with just some minor insulation...that's assuming a single infusion mash, though...

Well I'm sure I could maintain temps really easily with a 100K burner, maybe even less. But, I wouldn't say it would hold temps very well on it's own. A friend of mine just upgraded his brewery to a 14 bbl system. His mash doesn't have any heat source. They're using strike water as hot as you can get it without leaching tannins from the grain, and the mash temps are still falling down below 150. I would think it would only drop a couple degrees! There must be something going wrong as some point there.

With having a 200K burner under the mash, in the brutus ten style setup and the temp probes right after the ball valves on the outlet, wouldn't the wort coming out be heated too quickly causing it to bounce back and forth between on and off? I do plan on having step mash capabilities. Maybe the only way to know is just build it and do a water test.
 
if step mashing is the plan, then my point is obviously moot.

about a water test, remember that the thermal properties of a mash are very different than water...
 
An up and coming microbrew in san diego county uses RIMS for 40 bbl. Surprised the heck out of me but i'll post a pic as soon as i can find it.

i'd really like to see that!

i am a brewer at a craft brewery in GA...we are on a 50bbl system, but our mash is steam jacketed. I've never heard of using RIMS on a system that large...that's really interesting...
 
You'll be fine with the 8" burner on the mash. The grain will retain enough heat that you won't need insulation. Burner automation will keep the wort from scorching, it only fires for short periods and should never get to the scorching point, especially running at .5 psi.
On that size kettle you will want to measure the mash temp inside the kettle as well. Ultimately, it's the grain temperature that needs to be managed, not the wort itself. (which you probably already know)
What size pump ports are you using? What are the dimensions of your kettles?
I would LOVE to build something this size.
 
An up and coming microbrew in san diego county uses RIMS for 40 bbl. Surprised the heck out of me but i'll post a pic as soon as i can find it.

that would be truly cool! I'm wondering if it's the original rims though, with the heat tube. My business partner would definitely be interested in that, as she is from San Diego.
 
You'll be fine with the 8" burner on the mash. The grain will retain enough heat that you won't need insulation. Burner automation will keep the wort from scorching, it only fires for short periods and should never get to the scorching point, especially running at .5 psi.
On that size kettle you will want to measure the mash temp inside the kettle as well. Ultimately, it's the grain temperature that needs to be managed, not the wort itself. (which you probably already know)
What size pump ports are you using? What are the dimensions of your kettles?
I would LOVE to build something this size.

the pumps are March Home Brewing AC-5SSB-MD Magnetic Drive Pump 1" inlet, 1/2" outlet. Kettles are 24" diameter.

The thing is, is that when I talked to them, they said a low inlet pressure such as 0.5psi would actually give the full 200K btu.
 
Off topic:

Dedhed, what brewery in GA do you work with? I lived in Athens for several years and was very active in the beer community up there
 
I run a direct fire 1.5 BBL system with jet burners, but infusion mash and recirculated herms style. I have (2) 32 tip jet burners(275K) under the BK and HLT , and a 75K 8 tip under the MT. The mash never scorches in my experience because of the false bottom and the constant recirculation, the MT is also uninsulated and I find that temps hold pretty nicely( remembering that most starch conversion takes place in the first 1/2 hour). That said, I don't use a pilot light, and the Honeywell option needs to be carefully considered, with the .5 PSI rating. It's been debated enough, and I don't talk about it anymore, but I have had much success with a 0-30 psi regulator as an option to plugging jets.

When running this size system, I would recommend a 100lb LP tank because of freezing, and indeed, this is not the most economical way to make beer, but it works. I built my system for a movie I am making, so the application is slightly different, but you get the idea.
Arctic Brewery and Mobile Fermentation Trailer
 
Rtockst

I'm starting to think... damn... should have went all electric.

I think you still should go electric. If you are home brewing 1-2 times per month then energy cost is not a big concern. But you said you were going for a license so I guess profit is some of your thinking.

Crunch the numbers any way you want and you will find electric cheaper for production. Instillation cost could still force you back to propane. We run a 1bb electric system on 50 amps. 55 gallon Blichmann kettle for all heating with single infusion mash. KISS it

We use Rubbermaid MT and HLT which cuts down on heat loss and with up to 165 lb of grain we loose only 5 degrees in 60 min.

What are you using for fermentation?

We run 6 42 gallon Blichmann
 
I built a 1BBL system almost exactly as you described. I use 200K BTU jet burners with Honeywell electronic ignition and Auber Instruments PID's. The control panel is a gas modification of the panel featured at The Electric Brewery. I have 35 gal Blichmann Boilermaker's for the MLT and HLT with a 55 gal for the Boil Kettle. To heat water faster I just plumbed a hot water supply line from my home hot water heater. It only takes around 30 minutes to heat the 125 degree hot water to 155-170 degrees. To "soften" the direct fired MLT, I raised the MLT off of the frame 3 inches to reduce the heat. I have had no scorching problems after 4 batches. In addition I can heat the 150-165 wort to boil in my kettle in around 40-50 minutes, but I ignite the burner early in the sparge cycle to expedite the process. Finally, I fuel the system with tandem 40lb LP tanks plumbed in series. After 4 batches the tanks are only about half to 2/3 empty. As far as electric is concerned, you would have issues as well as it would likely take 50 plus amps to feed the multiple 5-6K watt elements required to heat such volumes. I calculated the feasibility of going electric, and the heating times were very similar with common residential elements. I cant remember the specific amp requirements, but it was large. You would need industrial elements, and 230-440 service to really shorten the time. I have attached pictures of my build for your review.

Now, that is a nice setup. Is that a dumping mechanism on the mash tun? I wish I would have planned that into the frame build. Anyway, yes I looked into electric a bit ago also. You can do 2 of the 5500W ULWD elements in one kettle, but some posts I've seen make it sound like that would still take longer than necessary. My main concern, other than burner size, is just money and energy savings. I think I'd save money per batch using either a tankless water heater (rinnai 96, uses gas) or just using 2 or 3 5500W elements in the HLT instead of a burner. It may take an hour to heat that strike water up with electric, but it would be much cheaper, I believe.

Awesome system! Was the control panel very hard to wire?
 
Rtockst

I'm starting to think... damn... should have went all electric.

I think you still should go electric. If you are home brewing 1-2 times per month then energy cost is not a big concern. But you said you were going for a license so I guess profit is some of your thinking.

Crunch the numbers any way you want and you will find electric cheaper for production. Instillation cost could still force you back to propane. We run a 1bb electric system on 50 amps. 55 gallon Blichmann kettle for all heating with single infusion mass. KISS it

We use Rubbermaid MT and HLT which cuts down on heat loss and with up to 165 lb of grain we loose only 5 degrees in 60 min.

What are you using for fermentation?

We run 6 42 gallon Blichmann

Yes, I'd like to make parts of it electric, such as the boil and the hlt. But, we're trying to get our fed paperwork sent in the next week or so, and they require you to list all of you energy usage (3 x 200K BTU burners, etc). If we can file an amendment after we get the license, then I might do that.

We're going to buy a few Stout brand conicals. Probably a few 55gals, and one or two 80 gal.

Can you give me a few more of your systems specs such as element wattage, how many elements, heating times and temps.

Thanks.
 
I run a direct fire 1.5 BBL system with jet burners, but infusion mash and recirculated herms style. I have (2) 32 tip jet burners(275K) under the BK and HLT , and a 75K 8 tip under the MT. The mash never scorches in my experience because of the false bottom and the constant recirculation, the MT is also uninsulated and I find that temps hold pretty nicely( remembering that most starch conversion takes place in the first 1/2 hour). That said, I don't use a pilot light, and the Honeywell option needs to be carefully considered, with the .5 PSI rating. It's been debated enough, and I don't talk about it anymore, but I have had much success with a 0-30 psi regulator as an option to plugging jets.

When running this size system, I would recommend a 100lb LP tank because of freezing, and indeed, this is not the most economical way to make beer, but it works. I built my system for a movie I am making, so the application is slightly different, but you get the idea.
Arctic Brewery and Mobile Fermentation Trailer

I dig your mobile system. I can't imagine how much work it took to build it all.

Do you find with your adjustable regulator, that if you take the pressure too low, it won't burn cleanly? I figure there is some adjustability of it, but would think there are limits since you can't adjust air intake.
 
thelorax121 said:
Off topic:

Dedhed, what brewery in GA do you work with? I lived in Athens for several years and was very active in the beer community up there

I'm a brewer at SweetWater Brewing Company...
 
Yes, I'd like to make parts of it electric, such as the boil and the hlt. But, we're trying to get our fed paperwork sent in the next week or so, and they require you to list all of you energy usage (3 x 200K BTU burners, etc). If we can file an amendment after we get the license, then I might do that.

We're going to buy a few Stout brand conicals. Probably a few 55gals, and one or two 80 gal.

Can you give me a few more of your systems specs such as element wattage, how many elements, heating times and temps.

Thanks.

We run two 5000 watt elements
It takes about 50 min to heat 40 gallons from 100 f to 180 f
The routine is fairly standard
Heat water for the mash for 50-60 min while getting grain organized
Mash in and then heat sparge water in 50 min and pump to HLT
Sparge and pump to BK when kettle gets about 20 gallons turn on the BK and
By the time the sparge is over the kettle has been boiling for a few minutes.
BTW we start with 100 f water because we run a household wood fired domestic water system which is plumbed into the brewery. You can see the build at

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/squam-lakes-brewery-pictures-144764/

I will post some new pictures of the new rig. One comment about the new system is the tilting MT is very good but the real winner is to be able to tilt the BK for cleaning ( this is very important when you have an electric setup )
 
Conicals

We run 42 gallon conicals and have resisted going bigger because we feel that the heat of fermentation would get difficult to control without adding a control system of some kind. 50 gallons ….OK… but for 80 gallons I think you need something to cool things down at least during the first 1-3 days depending upon the yeast and what your brewing.
By sticking with all the same conical size (6 currently) you have a better chance to have a repeatable brew. When you’re selling your beer you are held to a much higher level than when home brewing where a little variance might even be appreciated.

Fed paper work ….. can take months so get it right the first time.
We made one change to the permit after we were up and running (expanded the size) and it took 8 months.
 
Boar Beer said:
We run two 5000 watt elements
It takes about 50 min to heat 40 gallons from 100 f to 180 f
The routine is fairly standard
Heat water for the mash for 50-60 min while getting grain organized
Mash in and then heat sparge water in 50 min and pump to HLT
Sparge and pump to BK when kettle gets about 20 gallons turn on the BK and
By the time the sparge is over the kettle has been boiling for a few minutes.
BTW we start with 100 f water because we run a household wood fired domestic water system which is plumbed into the brewery. You can see the build at

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/squam-lakes-brewery-pictures-144764/

I will post some new pictures of the new rig. One comment about the new system is the tilting MT is very good but the real winner is to be able to tilt the BK for cleaning ( this is very important when you have an electric setup )

Those are pretty good times for electric in that size. I think I'd have to use 3 elements in the liquor tank to get comparable Times, as we'd be heating 60 or so gal. ever heard of an element higher than 5500w that's still single phase capable?
 
Conicals

We run 42 gallon conicals and have resisted going bigger because we feel that the heat of fermentation would get difficult to control without adding a control system of some kind. 50 gallons ….OK… but for 80 gallons I think you need something to cool things down at least during the first 1-3 days depending upon the yeast and what your brewing.
By sticking with all the same conical size (6 currently) you have a better chance to have a repeatable brew. When you’re selling your beer you are held to a much higher level than when home brewing where a little variance might even be appreciated.

Fed paper work ….. can take months so get it right the first time.
We made one change to the permit after we were up and running (expanded the size) and it took 8 months.

We'll be making fermentation chambers for the larger ones to try and solve the extra heat problem. Hopefully they work ok.

You kept brewing while waiting to get the paperwork back, right?
 
I built a 1BBL system almost exactly as you described. I use 200K BTU jet burners with Honeywell electronic ignition and Auber Instruments PID's. The control panel is a gas modification of the panel featured at The Electric Brewery. I have 35 gal Blichmann Boilermaker's for the MLT and HLT with a 55 gal for the Boil Kettle. To heat water faster I just plumbed a hot water supply line from my home hot water heater. It only takes around 30 minutes to heat the 125 degree hot water to 155-170 degrees. To "soften" the direct fired MLT, I raised the MLT off of the frame 3 inches to reduce the heat. I have had no scorching problems after 4 batches. In addition I can heat the 150-165 wort to boil in my kettle in around 40-50 minutes, but I ignite the burner early in the sparge cycle to expedite the process. Finally, I fuel the system with tandem 40lb LP tanks plumbed in series. After 4 batches the tanks are only about half to 2/3 empty. As far as electric is concerned, you would have issues as well as it would likely take 50 plus amps to feed the multiple 5-6K watt elements required to heat such volumes. I calculated the feasibility of going electric, and the heating times were very similar with common residential elements. I cant remember the specific amp requirements, but it was large. You would need industrial elements, and 230-440 service to really shorten the time. I have attached pictures of my build for your review.

1st - Beautiful looking system.

Q./ Did you weld in a whirlpool port into the 55gal boil kettle? I'm about to order a 55gal Blichman but really want to be able to whirlpool via pump.

I too supplement the HLT with hot water from the home tank. Saves a lot of propane. My plan was to use a 55gal HLT and a 55gal BK . Today I'm using keggles and 26gal MT with a 4in (non-jet) burner. The mash holds plenty of heat so the burners rarely turn on. The pilot flame seems to almost be enough.
 
Those are pretty good times for electric in that size. I think I'd have to use 3 elements in the liquor tank to get comparable Times, as we'd be heating 60 or so gal. ever heard of an element higher than 5500w that's still single phase capable?

We had Brewmation size and design the controls. Not sure about bigger heating elements. I have see on this site guys with three elements in one kettle. I think it was a 1.5 bbl rig
 
GT Brewer and Landshark67

Why do you whirlpool? If your doing 30-40 gallon batches then I would think you are using conicals. Why not go strait to the conical and avoid running your cooling wort round and round giving it a chance to get infected. You save time and after filling the conical you can drain off the unwanted stuff.
 
GT Brewer and Landshark67

Why do you whirlpool? If your doing 30-40 gallon batches then I would think you are using conicals. Why not go strait to the conical and avoid running your cooling wort round and round giving it a chance to get infected. You save time and after filling the conical you can drain off the unwanted stuff.

I plan on using a whirlpool. I'd say one advantage is that if you use a heat exchanger to cool the wort, you can whirlpool before sending it through, therefore reducing the amount of time to clean the heat exchanger. They're tough to clean if you send all that trub through. Also, there's debate over whether or not trub in the fermenter imparts harsh flavors to the beer. I'm thinking it probably affects the finished beer much less, since there'd be less surface area of trub in contact with the beer and the fact that you can dump it just like you mentioned.
 
1st - Beautiful looking system.

Q./ Did you weld in a whirlpool port into the 55gal boil kettle? I'm about to order a 55gal Blichman but really want to be able to whirlpool via pump.

I too supplement the HLT with hot water from the home tank. Saves a lot of propane. My plan was to use a 55gal HLT and a 55gal BK . Today I'm using keggles and 26gal MT with a 4in (non-jet) burner. The mash holds plenty of heat so the burners rarely turn on. The pilot flame seems to almost be enough.

Do you constantly recirculate the mash?
 
Do you constantly recirculate the mash?


I do.

I've been testing a few different return options in a quest to actually notice hot side aeration effects. Oddly, I can't tell an difference in my beers.

I use a fly-like sparge arm that sits at the top of the grain bed about 1in below the fluid level. Depending on pump flow the grain stirs a bit on the top.

My other return is a simple ss elbow that touches the MLT side...also just below the surface. When I do this I usually stir the mash 4-5 times during the 70min step.
 
GT Brewer and Landshark67

Why do you whirlpool? If your doing 30-40 gallon batches then I would think you are using conicals. Why not go strait to the conical and avoid running your cooling wort round and round giving it a chance to get infected. You save time and after filling the conical you can drain off the unwanted stuff.


The whirlpool step is almost habit now. My IPAs get a large dose of hops at this point. The whirlpool also helps sanitize the plate chiller before the valves are switched and everything flows to the fermenter.

My conical is a ways from the brew system so the final whirlpool step also gives me some time to prep hoses.

If I use a grant/hopback then I like flowing the clear beer out of the whirlpool and into the hopback for one more exposure to hops before fermentation.
 
I noticed some 180qt stainless pots on eBay. Concord is the company name (probably Chinese made). 304 stainless. $260 delivered

While 45 gallons is not quite the 55gal goal, the price seems very attractive vs Blichman or Stout. I'm ordering one to check out. They may have a 200qt option too.

Brew on!
 
I noticed some 180qt stainless pots on eBay. Concord is the company name (probably Chinese made). 304 stainless. $260 delivered

While 45 gallons is not quite the 55gal goal, the price seems very attractive vs Blichman or Stout. I'm ordering one to check out. They may have a 200qt option too.

Brew on!
Please post what you think of these. They are up In LA, so I've been thinking of picking up 2 and saving on shipping.
 
Here we come, 1.5 bbls!!!

ForumRunner_20120128_143208.jpg



ForumRunner_20120128_143149.jpg

any suggestions on a type of 1/8" bit that doesn't take forever to drill through 1/4" steel plates? Yes 1/4"... that was not to my specs
 
rtockst said:
Here we come, 1.5 bbls!!!

<img src="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45335"/>

<img src="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45334"/>

any suggestions on a type of 1/8" bit that doesn't take forever to drill through 1/4" steel plates? Yes 1/4"... that was not to my specs

Start smaller then move up. Use lots of coolant.
 
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