Use champagne yeast to carb big beers

I am drinking a tripel that I bottled one week ago. I carbed it with champagne yeast, lalvin 1118. Within one week, it is fully carbed. Not only that, the yeast dropped and formed a tight sediment at the bottom of the bottle without any time spent in the refrigerator. I just grabbed a bottle from the basement, tossed it in the fridge, and an hour later am enjoying a crystal clear super bubbly tripel in a tulip glass, not a bit of yeast in it.

Just thought I'd post this because before I tried this I read through some threads with mixed advice on whether or not this works. I think the best part is how fast this carbs.

FYI, the champagne yeast should attenuate approximately 100% of the sugars in solution.

My point? There's is a good chance you are going to end up with a bunch of bottle bombs. Your 'rapid' carbonation technique could very well backfire on you (no pun intended). You may want to consider placing the remaining bottles somewhere that should they explode, hazards and mess cleanup will be minimized...you may have a potentially dangerous situation.

Just my .02

As mentioned above, it's generally not a good idea to add yeast at bottling that has significantly higher attenuation than the yeast used to ferment the beer. The new yeast will eat all of the priming sugar, plus a bunch of the more complex sugars that the original yeast couldn't. The best case scenario is the beer ends up drier and more carbonated than intended. Worst case scenario is bottle bombs. In the rare cases that additional yeast is required at bottling, it's usually best to use the same yeast it was fermented with.

I think it's fine. First, it's a tripel. It finished at 1.004. So no problems, it's already dry.

Second, champagne yeast isn't going to ferment something that an ale yeast couldn't. It has a hard time with maltose.

I read the same warnings in other threads, but it doesn't sound like the people advising against it had ever tried it. People who had all said it worked fine. Now that I've done it, I believe them.

I just grabbed a bottle from the basement, tossed it in the fridge, and an hour later am enjoying a crystal clear super bubbly tripel in a tulip glass, not a bit of yeast in it.

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that sentence right there shows that there was extreme pressure built up in the bottle. the beer didnt need to be chilled at all to let the CO2 dissolve. it had enough pressure to force adequate volumes of CO2 in at room temperature. that would require much higher pressure.

im interested to hear how the carbonation level of the beer is after 2 weeks in the refrigerator...?

audger said:

that sentence right there shows that there was extreme pressure built up in the bottle. the beer didnt need to be chilled at all to let the CO2 dissolve. it had enough pressure to force adequate volumes of CO2 in at room temperature. that would require much higher pressure.

im interested to hear how the carbonation level of the beer is after 2 weeks in the refrigerator...?

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I don't follow you. You always naturally carb ales at around room temperature.

you always naturally carb everything at room temperature. but if you were to pop open a naturally carb'd beer before it was refrigerated, almost all the CO2 would be in the headspace still and the beer wouldnt be very carbonated.

the fact that this beer carbonated to an adequate level without refrigeration shows there was much higher pressure inside than normal. and if it were cooled and given a week or two to actually dissolve (assuming no bottle bombs), im guessing the beer would be highly overcarbonated.

(i am sort of oversimplifying the 1 hour in the fridge to be the same as no refrigeration at all. only a negligible amount of CO2 would probably dissolve in that time period. it normally takes 3-4 days at minimum to allow a naturally carb'd bottle to absorb all the CO2)

Has anyone in this thread other than rex (and I) used champagne yeast at bottling for a high OG ale? Has anyone who answered yes to the previous question had carbonation problems?

I have used this technique several times with NO ill effects. The idea that champagne yeast has higher attenuation is right, BUT the complex sugars left over by the ale yeast will not be eaten, only the priming sugars. I promise you this. If anyone has had bottle bombs using this method, chances are they did not finish fermenting before bottling or they had an infection.

Actually, you need to take a look at the attenuation associated with your original yeast. If it only attenuates 85% of the sugars you will have substantial 'fermentables' left over prior to adding priming sugar and champagne yeast...and since the champagne yeast will attenuate 100% of sugars you could be in for an unpleasant experience.

It's very easy to achieve a FG well below 1.000 using champagne yeast...so the fact that the FG of the Trippel is 1.004 doesn't really mean much. The fact that a HG beer carbonated so quickly is indicative of very high pressure in the head space...think of force carbing in a keg and the pressures involved in that process (you're doing something similar with a glass vessel). Although your pressures probably aren't quite that high, you're definitely putting yourself in a position to have a potential bottle bomb. Having had one with a cider recipe, I can tell you it makes a huge mess and I wouldn't want to be in the same room with the flying glass.

Let us know in two weeks...I'd be curious to see if you've had any explode by that time.

The only way champagne yeast can attenuate that high is if ALL of the sugars are simple, like in a mead. What sugars that are left behind from fermenting with an ale yeast are complex sugars that the champagne yeast cannot and will not eat. The only way they will eat them is if enzymes are added to break them down to simple sugars.

gclunde, you say you've fermented below 1.000 with champagne yeast. Was this a beer?

gclunde said:

FYI, the champagne yeast should attenuate approximately 100% of the sugars in solution.

My point? There's is a good chance you are going to end up with a bunch of bottle bombs. Your 'rapid' carbonation technique could very well backfire on you (no pun intended). You may want to consider placing the remaining bottles somewhere that should they explode, hazards and mess cleanup will be minimized...you may have a potentially dangerous situation.

Just my .02

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This is absolutely not true. Champagne yeast does not contain the ability to ferment maltose in almost every strain. Beyond that they certainly cannot ferment maltotriose, which even a lot of brewing strains do not ferment. So adding Champagne yeast to a beer that's only 80% attenuated is not a problem because the champagne yeast will only ferment the priming sugar. Trust me I do it ALL the time and get great results on my high ABV beers.

Has anyone in this thread other than rex (and I) used champagne yeast at bottling for a high OG ale? Has anyone who answered yes to the previous question had carbonation problems?

I have used this technique several times with NO ill effects. The idea that champagne yeast has higher attenuation is right, BUT the complex sugars left over by the ale yeast will not be eaten, only the priming sugars. I promise you this. If anyone has had bottle bombs using this method, chances are they did not finish fermenting before bottling or they had an infection.

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smokinghole said:

This is absolutely not true. Champagne yeast does not contain the ability to ferment maltose in almost every strain. Beyond that they certainly cannot ferment maltotriose, which even a lot of brewing strains do not ferment. So adding Champagne yeast to a beer that's only 80% attenuated is not a problem because the champagne yeast will only ferment the priming sugar. Trust me I do it ALL the time and get great results on my high ABV beers.

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Thanks guys. I knew I was right. In yo face!

smokinghole said:

This is absolutely not true. Champagne yeast does not contain the ability to ferment maltose in almost every strain. Beyond that they certainly cannot ferment maltotriose, which even a lot of brewing strains do not ferment. So adding Champagne yeast to a beer that's only 80% attenuated is not a problem because the champagne yeast will only ferment the priming sugar. Trust me I do it ALL the time and get great results on my high ABV beers.

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I guess I should have been more specific and stated 'fermentable' sugars. I'm still not sure how taking an ale yeast that only attenuates 80% of fermentable sugars and then adding champange yeast that will attenuate 100% of fermentable sugars at bottling time, plus priming sugar doesn't present a potential problem. If it works for you, more power to you.

Personally, until someone can show me something scientific or widely accepted that this is safe, I'll just give it some extra time to carbonate using the existing yeast in solution rather than take a chance.

I used to have a reference just for a doubter like you. It all has to to do with the yeasts ability to produce hydrolyzing enzymes. If the yeast cannot then maltotriose will not be cleaved off into glucose. Some yeast can directly ferment sucrose but many will convert the sugars enzymatically into glucose through sugar bond breaking and molecular rearrangement.

gclunde said:

I guess I should have been more specific and stated 'fermentable' sugars. I'm still not sure how taking an ale yeast that only attenuates 80% of fermentable sugars and then adding champange yeast that will attenuate 100% of fermentable sugars at bottling time, plus priming sugar doesn't present a potential problem. If it works for you, more power to you.

Personally, until someone can show me something scientific or widely accepted that this is safe, I'll just give it some extra time to carbonate using the existing yeast in solution rather than take a chance.

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Alright I'll do my best to convince you without some sort of experiment. You have simple sugars ( monosaccharides I.e. Sucrose, glucose, fructose) these are easily fermented and champagne yeasts will eat ALL of them. The majority of sugars in wines, meads, ciders are simple and therefore can finish very dry. In beers however there are complex sugars. These a sugars that have multiple monosaccharides connected to each other for instance maltose is two glucose molecules. In order to metabolize these complex sugars yeast must cleave the bond connecting the two molecules of glucose. Champagne yeasts can't do this. So they don't touch many of these sugars that are remaining. Ale yeasts also consume simple sugars very easily and will consume most (if not all?) during fermentation along with some complex sugars. Attenuation, put very simply, is a matter of how many of these complex sugars are metabolized.

So to address exactly what you said, you said "I'm still not sure how taking an ale yeast that only attenuates 80% of fermentable sugars and then adding champange yeast that will attenuate 100% of fermentable sugars at bottling time, plus priming sugar doesn't present a potential problem."

The problem is that it is 80% sugars total, not %80 of fermentable sugars. Champagne yeast love the simple corn sugar (sucrose) you add and eat it real quick, but nothing else. Long story short I don't see any biochemical problems with it, nor any real life experience issues. Hopefully that helps.

Ok...I'll buy that...

Here's my next question...

Why use champagne yeast at all if the ale yeast is going to ferment the simple sugars anyway?

gclunde said:

Ok...I'll buy that...

Here's my next question...

Why use champagne yeast at all if the ale yeast is going to ferment the simple sugars anyway?

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1. It has a higher alcohol tolerance than most ale yeasts.
2. It's much cheaper.

DrinksWellWithOthers said:

1. It has a higher alcohol tolerance than most ale yeasts.
2. It's much cheaper.

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Exactly. Strong beers can wear out your primary yeast. If you're going to repitch at bottling, why not use a pack that costs around a dollar and will carb your beer in one week?

I made this thread to put this whole issue to rest, get some good testimonials and scientific back-up going. Thanks, guys.

audger said:

... if you were to pop open a naturally carb'd beer before it was refrigerated, almost all the CO2 would be in the headspace still and the beer wouldnt be very carbonated.

the fact that this beer carbonated to an adequate level without refrigeration shows there was much higher pressure inside than normal. and if it were cooled and given a week or two to actually dissolve (assuming no bottle bombs), im guessing the beer would be highly overcarbonated.

(i am sort of oversimplifying the 1 hour in the fridge to be the same as no refrigeration at all. only a negligible amount of CO2 would probably dissolve in that time period. it normally takes 3-4 days at minimum to allow a naturally carb'd bottle to absorb all the CO2)

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I may be way off, but im pretty sure your beer is absorbing the co2 while it is conditioning. Refrigerating it just reduces the pressure to a more manageable point, so you get beer with a nice head and gentle carbonation... not a glass full of foam.

The second there is pressure higher than atmospheric pressure CO2 begins dissolving into solution. Sometimes it just takes a couple weeks to get all the way there. I think champagne consumes all the sugar so fast compared to tired ale yeast that completed fermentation that it carbonates the beer much faster.

smokinghole said:

The second there is pressure higher than atmospheric pressure CO2 begins dissolving into solution. Sometimes it just takes a couple weeks to get all the way there. I think champagne consumes all the sugar so fast compared to tired ale yeast that completed fermentation that it carbonates the beer much faster.

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I think that's true. I do have one personal issue that should be considered. I have bottled a sweet sparkling cider, that had more simple sugars than usual primed beers, and the champagne yeast produced CO2 way faster than it could be absorbed. So much pressure built up it blew the cap and juice all ovewr the ceiling. I was sure I had a whole batch of overcarbed bottles but I immediately refrigerated them and checked a few days later and they were perfect. That's the one issue I might worry about but I don't think the priming sugar is enough for this to happen at normal temperatures.

Great thread. I've got a 12% quad that I want to bottle condition, and want to add champagne yeast to help carb. My question though is how much yeast to add? I've got about 4.5 gallons and want to get to 2.5 ~ 3 volumes.

simont said:

Great thread. I've got a 12% quad that I want to bottle condition, and want to add champagne yeast to help carb. My question though is how much yeast to add? I've got about 4.5 gallons and want to get to 2.5 ~ 3 volumes.

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Half a pack should be good. Save the rest to throw into the boil of another high gravity beer for some yeast nutrient.

Would there be any benefit or disadvantage to adding the champagne yeast after primary fermentation and let it sit for a week, then bottle?

The benefit of course is peace of mind. The champagne yeast will eat anything that the ale yeast has failed to eat, and so when you bottle, you know that there is nothing in there besides the priming sugar.

The disadvantage is if the champagne yeast poops out because it has no food. So then you have to add another packet of champagne yeast at bottling time to make sure there is something viable when you bottle.

How about I just add half a pack 1 week before bottling and the other half of the packet at bottling time?

Unless you have some seriously deficient ale yeast the champagne yeast should not ferment anything that the ale yeast was not able to ferment. So if you want the peace of mind just spend the $2 and use a packet a week or two before and then use one at bottling if that tickles your pickle. No need to overthink it really. Also depending on how high the alcohol level is the champagne yeast will be plenty viable in the beer if you pitch it and let it sit a week. I wouldn't even bother with a second packet if I were you.

Well, I have a 12% Belgian Dark Strong, I added the priming solution 5 weeks ago and when opened a bottle today no signs of carbonation, pretty sure that the yeast won't make it, so I decided to add champagne yeast to it.

I will open all the bottles and rep itch some champagne yeast (i will make a starter earlier). Has anyone tried this? Will like 1-2ML of yeast work per bottle?