Chimay Grande Reserve - Recipe Help

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Turk10mm

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Hi All,

I've never developed my own recipe before, so I took a look at summersolstice's recipe for the Chimay Blue and made a couple modifications. I really don't know what I'm doing so any help in reviewing my changes would be appreciated. summersolstice's recipe was a little low on OG according to the guidelines for a belgian dark strong so I tweaked some of the numbers by adding additional extract, and additional grains.

Where I'm really concerned is by adding more torrified wheat to bring the OG up without making the beer too dark. Is my method acceptable for the style or do i need to consider some Light LME instead of more wheat steeping grain? If I substitute 1.5lbs of Pale LME and cut the wheat down to 1lb, I still stay in the numbers that I'm looking for.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Minimash
6.65 gallons of water (full boil) accounts for 3 quarts of liquid with a 2gal/hr loss leaving 5.18gal wort
Boil Duration 1 hour
OG 1.092
FG 1.023
21.3 SRM
24.6 IBU
9.18 ABV
310 kcal per 12/oz

Steep Grains
----------------------
Munich Malt - 2lb
Special B - 1lb (+.5lb from summersolstice recipe)
Belgian Aromatic - .25lb
Torrified Wheat - 3lb (+2.5lbs from summersolstice recipe) increased to boost OG. Although I'm not sure if this is the right way to do it

Boil
----------------------
Amber LME - 4lb
Munich LME - 4lb (+1lb from summersolstice recipe)
Lyle's Golden Syrup - 1lb

Hop Schedule
----------------------
Hallertau 3.8%AA - 1oz @ 60minutes
Styrian Goldings 3.5%AA - 1oz @ 45minutes (increased from 30 minutes from summersolstice recipe)

Whirfloc Tablet

White Labs WLP500 Trappist Ale - 2ea Double pitch w/starter
 
The best Belgian Dark Strongs I've made were just pale base malt, dark candi syrup, and a small amount of Special B (typically <5% by weight).

The most important aspect of that type of beer will be the FG. 1.023 will be sickly-sweet. With very little bitterness to balance the sweetness, you will need a much dryer-than-average beer. The high alcohol and low residual sweetness will make it drinkable. You want between 1.008-1.014. One way to get the FG lower is by ditching some of the specialty grains, and increasing the sugar amount. Lyles golden syrup seems like a waste, because of it's price, and the fact that it's not bringing much to the flavor party. Why not use plain table sugar? I'd use something like dark candi syrup, or you can make your own:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/

Also, here's a link to one of my BDSs. This particular one was oak-aged, but the base beer is solid:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f74/belgian-barleywine-contest-tested-212251/
 
I have seen two distinct recipes for this, both with dark candy sugar, and both with paradise seed. Don't know if this info may help, but thought I would throw it out there.
 
The best Belgian Dark Strongs I've made were just pale base malt, dark candi syrup, and a small amount of Special B (typically <5% by weight).

The most important aspect of that type of beer will be the FG. 1.023 will be sickly-sweet. With very little bitterness to balance the sweetness, you will need a much dryer-than-average beer. The high alcohol and low residual sweetness will make it drinkable. You want between 1.008-1.014. One way to get the FG lower is by ditching some of the specialty grains, and increasing the sugar amount. Lyles golden syrup seems like a waste, because of it's price, and the fact that it's not bringing much to the flavor party. Why not use plain table sugar? I'd use something like dark candi syrup, or you can make your own:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/

Also, here's a link to one of my BDSs. This particular one was oak-aged, but the base beer is solid:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f74/belgian-barleywine-contest-tested-212251/

Thanks for the links! I'm having a hard time adjusting ingredients to get the ABV high enough without ending up with a high FG. even without the speciality grains, its still up around 1.020 which is the upper 1/3 of the style 1.010-1.024
 
Any software you use to compute OG and FG will assume 75% attenuation. My last BDS started at 1.095 and ended at 1.010, giving me 11.3% ABV. That is 89% apparent attenuation, and far greater than what any software would estimate. With a good amount of sugar, that degree of attenuation is not terribly difficult to achieve.

Oh, and if you haven't read Brew Like a Monk, you should. It states that Chimay Blue starts at 1.077, has 9% ABV, 89% apparent attenuation, 40 SRM, and 35 IBUs.

It's really amazing how simple the grain bills are for very complex beers. You can make a good BDS with only pale malt and dark syrup, and some breweries do. Some use a mix of dark syrup and simple table sugar. For example, Duvel uses only pilsener malts and Dextrose. Westvleteren 8 is Pale and pils malts, and sucrose and caramelized sugar. Rochefort 10 uses pils malt, one cara malt, white sugar, dark sugar, and wheat starch.

I think anyone who has had those beers would call them "complex" although their recipes certainly are not.
 
Any software you use to compute OG and FG will assume 75% attenuation. My last BDS started at 1.095 and ended at 1.010, giving me 11.3% ABV. That is 89% apparent attenuation, and far greater than what any software would estimate. With a good amount of sugar, that degree of attenuation is not terribly difficult to achieve.

Oh, and if you haven't read Brew Like a Monk, you should. It states that Chimay Blue starts at 1.077, has 9% ABV, 89% apparent attenuation, 40 SRM, and 35 IBUs.

It's really amazing how simple the grain bills are for very complex beers. You can make a good BDS with only pale malt and dark syrup, and some breweries do. Some use a mix of dark syrup and simple table sugar. For example, Duvel uses only pilsener malts and Dextrose. Westvleteren 8 is Pale and pils malts, and sucrose and caramelized sugar. Rochefort 10 uses pils malt, one cara malt, white sugar, dark sugar, and wheat starch.

I think anyone who has had those beers would call them "complex" although their recipes certainly are not.


Haha, I'm on the first chapter of Brew Like a Monk right now. :)
 
Ok, lets try this again (and thanks for your assistance) Its still pretty complicated but I set it for an 85% attenuation

Minimash Recipe

Kettle Volume: 6.75 gal (S.G.: 1.071)
Boil Duration: 1 hr
Evaporation: 2.0 gal
Water Volume Added: .7 gal
Final Volume: 5.26 gal (S.G.: 1.091)
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 85%
Evap/Hour: 2 gal

Ingredients:

Steep @ 155 for 45 minutes and sparge with 2 quarts @ 170
------------------------------
2.0 lb Belgian Pale
2.0 lb Belgian Pils
.5 lb Special B - Caramel malt
0.25 lb Belgian Aromatic
0.25 lb Caramunich® (Organic)
1.5 lb Torrified Wheat

Boil
-----------------------------
2.0 lb Amber Liquid
2.0 lb Munich Liquid
4.0 lb Pale Liquid
1.0 lb Belgian Candi Syrup

Hop Schedule
----------------------------
1 oz Hallertau (4.3%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
1.5 oz Styrian Goldings (3.5%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min

Additions
----------------------------
1 Whirlfloc Tablet (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
2.5 tsp Yeast Nutrient - added during boil, boiled 15 minutes

2 x White Labs WLP500 Trappist Ale, 2000ml Starter

Original Gravity: 1.091
Terminal Gravity: 1.014
Color: 19.92 °SRM
Alcohol: 10.2%
Bitterness: 28.8

Total: 299.84 kcal

Carbonation:
Natural Conditioning
Beer Temp: 68.0 °F
Priming Agent Rate: 4.02 g/L
Priming Agent Mass: 131.16 g
Volumes CO2: 2.5
 
I would replace the amber and munich LME with just pale, or get rid of all the steeping grains except the Special B. In those darker LMEs they use specialty grains to get the color and flavor right. Which grains, and how much, I don't know. You'll get a ton of color from the candi syrup and the amber and munich LMEs won't be necessary.

That way also you'll have a better idea of what your steeping grains taste like, instead of whatever cocktail of grains the maltster used to make the LME.
 
Thanks for the constructive criticism. I'll rework it again and post back later this evening. I really do appreciate the help.
 
I used to make a lot of mediocre beer using the "malt soup" complex recipe approach. Now I use simple recipes, and my beers are a lot better than they used to be. Some of my best beers have used only pale malt, with no specialty grains at all.

The best thing you can take away from Brew Like a Monk is how simple recipes can be to make outstanding beer.
 
Nateo, I left in the specialty malts. Do you think this is still too complex? I need to finish the book before i actually brew this. Again, I appreciate the constructive criticism.

Wolfgang's Black Heart - Dark Strong Ale
Author: Tony McAnally
Category: 18 - Belgian Strong Ale
Subcategory: E - Belgian Dark Strong Ale

Kettle Volume: 6.75 gal (S.G.: 1.073)
Boil Duration: 1 hr
Evaporation: 2.0 gal
Water Volume Added: .7 gal
Final Volume: 5.26 gal (S.G.: 1.093)
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 85%
Evap/Hour: 2 gal

Ingredients:
Steep 45 minutes at 155 degrees. Sparge with 2 quarts at 170
3.0 lb Belgian Pale
4.0 lb Belgian Pils
1.5 lb Torrified Wheat
.75 lb Special B - Caramel malt
.5 lb Belgian Aromatic
.25 lb Caramunich® (Organic)

Boil
5.0 lb Pale Liquid
1.0 lb Belgian Candi Syrup

1 oz Hallertau (4.3%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
1 oz Styrian Goldings (3.5%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
.5 oz Styrian Goldings (3.5%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min

1 tsp Whirlfloc Tablets (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 45 min
2.5 tsp Yeast Nutrient (AKA Fermax) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min

2 ea White Labs WLP500 Trappist Ale

Style:
Recipe
Original Gravity: 1.088
Terminal Gravity: 1.013
Color: 20.57 °SRM
Alcohol: 9.95%
Bitterness: 27.3

Guideline
1.075 - 1.110
1.010 - 1.024
12.0 - 22.0
8.0% - 11.0%
20.0 - 30.0

Analysis:
Attenuation: 85%
% Alcohol: 9.95% ABV
Total: 292.45 kcal

Carbonation:
Natural Conditioning
Beer Temp: 70.0 °F
Priming Agent Rate: 4.02 g/L
Priming Agent Mass: 4.50 oz
Volumes CO2: 2.43

Notes:
5lbs liquid Pale
1lb Belgian Candi Syrup
Total = 6lbs or ~.5 gallons volume
 
Here's a little interesting reading:
http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/?p=35

There is more than one way to skin a cat, for sure. Belgian beers are all about brewing to taste, not to style, and using ingredients that are readily available. I'm sure the beer you're planning to make will taste good. Is it the best possible beer? Without making it, it's impossible to say.

I buy my grain in bulk. I have pale malt and wheat malt. From that, I make my own chocolate malt, and a Special-B type roasted crystal. I hate paying $2/pound for specialty grains from the LHBS, so I don't. I have found, for myself at least, that boundaries paradoxically create new opportunities to explore the depth of flavor in limited ingredients. It's like a painter with a limited palette. It's a pain to go to the brew store every time I want to brew. So I would never use that many specialty grains for economic and practical reasons, but I also am happy with the beers I make using fewer grains.

I think you should try different methods to find what works for you. For me, I was not happy with my complex grain bills. I think that was mostly due to my inexperience with what those grains would bring to the flavor party. Someone like Jamil, who has the depth of knowledge and experience can make a complex recipe taste great, but he knows exactly what he's doing.

I'd say brew the recipe you have planned, but I'd also say brew another with just pale malt extract and dark candi syrup. That would be the most basic BDS I can think of. Then you can compare the results yourself and see what you like better. If there's something lacking in the barest recipe, you can add a grain, and see if it's better or worse. Philosophically, I like working toward a solution in slow, incremental steps, and being able to evaluate empirically exactly what my changes did.

But I also rarely take anyone's word for anything, and I recommend the same to you: Don't take my word for it, and find out for yourself.
 
Thanks a lot! I will give it a go and see how it turns out. I guess the only problem with testing different ways is that it takes so darn long to really know how a beer will finish out when its this big. I'm guessing I'll have a full 6 months before I can really be able to judge the effort. When you are a new brewer that seems like an eternity. :) But I have a few batches already done, and i'll be able to do more after to keep me busy. Patience is not one of my strong suits.

I do appreciate the advice.
 
That recipe that I linked to earlier tasted good at 2 months, grain to glass. But big beers do benefit from extended aging. Great Divide here in Denver ages their big beers a year before they sell them, sometimes longer.
 
Just curious why you're using the irish moss? I've never had Chimay Grande look that clear. Check it:
3880933910_5a6ed8e709.jpg
 
It may be dark but I wouldn't call it cloudy. i just want to take out the haze from the beer so that its clear. The pic you show is a pretty bright beer. You can see the underside of the head clearly through the beer. if it wasn't bright like that you wouldn't be able to see the individual bubbles in the head. i want that same brightness.
 
Nateo,

For a partial mash, is 10.25lbs of grain too much in comparison to 5.5lbs of LME? Heck, i'm damn near doing all grain weights in a mini-mash with these numbers.

Thanks!
 
I assumed you were adding the LME because you couldn't fit all the grain in your mini-mash setup. If you can fit all the grains in your mini mash, and just make it a 'mash' go for it! That's basically how I worked my way up to all grain. I use the deathbrewer BIAB method.

If you want to keep the mash "mini" you could definitely sub all of the pale malt for pale LME, although I prefer dry malt extract. It's more shelf stable. Unless you know your LME is fresh, it's safer to go with DME. It's not a 1-to-1 sub, because of the weight difference. Don't remember the exact conversion, that's what beersmith is for.

I would keep the pils though. That has a unique flavor that's not quite like pale malt.
 
Well I have a 9 gallon pot, so I have no idea how much grain i can actually put in the pot with 6 gallons of water. I know that I can put 5 in and dunk it around like a teabag pretty easily. I sort of doubt that I can get enough grain in the pot too use all grain for this particular recipe. Is there any way i can simulate the density/volume of grain to test it? Could probably try a 10lb can of oatmeal :p
 
I just ran it through beer tools, and if i had 7lbs of pils and 7lbs of pale, .75lb each of special b, aromatic, caramunich, .5lbs each of torrified wheat and melanoidin then I'm roughly where I was with the the lme.

But that 17lbs of grain.. That seems like a bunch for 6 gallons of water. I dunno if I could reclaim enough wort from it.
 
I've fit 14lbs of grain in a smaller pot than you have (mine is 5 gallons). Most homebrewers mash thinner than they need to. I usually use around 1qt/lb. Your mash paddle should be able to stand up straight in the mash. If it falls over, the mash is too thin. So 6 gallons seems like way too much water to me.
 
but my problem would be getting the wort out of the pot after. I've been using a grain bag exclusively. can i still do that with that much grain?

sorry for the edumacation of a newb that you are graciously putting up with.
 
i'm gonna shutup now :) , you gave me a the info i should have searched for with the reference to deathbrewer BIAB.. i'm reading it now, please disregard my denseness.
 
I have a 5 gallon paint strainer bag I got at the hardware store that works beautifully. Before that I had a cheesecloth bag my wife sewed for me, but the paint strainer bag drains better.
 
Well, i think I'm just going to bite the bullet and buy a 10 gallon cooler and make a mash tun and just do this sucker up with a single batch sparge. Thanks for pushing me to AG, my wife will send you the bill :p
 
Hi guys,

resurrecting this thread as I'm planning on brewing a Belgian ark Strong this winter.

My grain bill percentage features the following percentages - do you guys think I'm going too heavy on the special B:

Pilsner 66%
Special B 10.5%
Dark candi syrup 22.5%
Cane sugar 1%

I've read - as you do - many different recommendations in various places, some say keep it simple, others suggest multiple small additions of various malts. I've opted to keep it simple on the grain bill and go along the lines of rochefort / westvleteren grain bill from BLAM.

But after looking at the grain bill again and comparing it to suggested additions of Special B, I find myself concerned as to whether I'm going too heavy on it.

Thoughts on that? Cheers :)
 
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