Lambic theory

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Clearwall

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Hey, has anyone here ever brewed lambic ale? I really love the stuf and woul like to evebtually get to breweing some, bu im a bit unclear as to how to brew it. Am i correct in my research that the deal with lambic is that the fermenter is not contained and that every batch is made with the remnants of the last batch? Can someone clear up lambics for me?
 
No matter what you do, you will not brew a Lambic, unless you move to the Senne valley of Belgium. After wort preparation, the fermenter is left open so that the native wild yeasts and bacteria float in and start the ferment. Many of these strains have been isolated and cultured, and some are available to home brewers (e.g. various yeasts, plus Brettanomyces lambicus, B. bruxellensis). You can do a pretty creditable job if you research the ingredients & techniques. I like Lambics, but not enough to do all that. However, there was the time that one of my brewpartners had a batch spontaneously ferment after a warm, humid Orlando brew session. I dubbed it a fLambic. Several years later, he had the nerve to try one. He claimed it was good, but then again, he likes Hanssens, which make bitter lemons seem sweet in comparison, if you ask me.
 
I wouldn't venture to say you will never make a lambic unless you live in Belgium. Thats what they would say. I think you can make a very respectable Lambic STYLE beer with the available wild yeast or lambic blends from White Labs or Wyeast.

My best advice if you really want to brew lambics, or any other wild ale is get the book "Wild Brews" by Jeff Sparrow. He really goes into depth on traditional Lambic brewing, and how we can emulate it on the homebrewing level.

A traditional lambic is spontaneously fermented. The breweries cool the wort in huge shallow stainless pans called the "coolship". Its usually contained in the upper story of a brewery near wood rafters. Wild yeast and bacteria are introduced to the wort this way.
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think all lambic breweries add part of a batch to the new one. This method is called Solera. You basically take out most of the previous batch, and add more wort. Every time you leave a little behind. It is used, but like I said, its not really common, and not something most homebrewers do.

One thing lambic brewers do though is blend. Its pretty rare that you will find straight unblended lambic. Most of the time, brewers blend 1, 2 and 3 year old lambics. The old lambic is very sour and dry, while the younger lambic is sweeter since the wild yeast haven't had the time to work on all of the longer chained sugars. The blended versions are called Gueuze.
 
I get it that Belgium is very snooty with their "lambic" definition just as Germany had their Reinheitsgebot. You can't brew Abby beers, only Abby style beers, etc. Whatever.

They let the local flaura get to their open fermenters sure. However, most modern Belgian breweries capture and reculture. If they can do it, certainly other mortals around the world can. Both major yeast labs offer Lambic blends that are pretty darn close to the real thing.

The easiest way to limp into the sour hobby is to brew 50% pils malt with 50% flaked wheat. Bitter to 5 IBU with old or low alpha hops. Ferment for 3 days with neutral ale yeast, then pitch lambic blend culture. Wait 9 months. No kidding. If you want to fruit it, you can add that at about the 6 month mark. Raspberry, sour cherry, etc puree or concentrates work well.
 
Wow, yeah, gonna have to get the hang of basic lagers and ales before I delve into this. Sounds intense.
 
No matter what you do, you will not brew a Lambic, unless you move to the Senne valley of Belgium.

I don't understand. Are you saying that only the wild yeast of the Senne Valley can produce a lambic? Jolly Pumpkin produced a 100% spontaneously fermented beer exactly like a lambic from Belgium, and it sure does taste a lot like a lambic. I just don't think that lambics are only from the Senne Valley, although the style is definitely centered in that region.

I find the lambic classification different than the Trappist and Abbey ale classification. Those are labels and trademarks used to showcase a brand, but people can still make the same beer. But I've never seen anywhere that says the lambic name is protected and can only be from Belgium.
 
I find the lambic classification different than the Trappist and Abbey ale classification. Those are labels and trademarks used to showcase a brand, but people can still make the same beer. But I've never seen anywhere that says the lambic name is protected and can only be from Belgium.

Its not, its just snobbery.
 
I don't understand. Are you saying that only the wild yeast of the Senne Valley can produce a lambic?

i think its basically like champagne only being from the champagne region of france. which a brut can taste just like champagne to me. it just about the same with the lambics except i think there is no law(not sure if there is one for the champagne thing either)
 
I'm going to bottle my lambic tonight or tomorrow. I used strawberries for mine, and I'm curious as to how it will turn out.

I did take a whiff of it in secondary... and it's not pretty. All of the strawberries are floating on the top and putting off an... aroma...
 
I don't understand. Are you saying that only the wild yeast of the Senne Valley can produce a lambic? Jolly Pumpkin produced a 100% spontaneously fermented beer exactly like a lambic from Belgium, and it sure does taste a lot like a lambic. I just don't think that lambics are only from the Senne Valley, although the style is definitely centered in that region.
Exactly, even a snobby Belgian lambic brewer won't tell you it has to be made in Belgium, it simply has to be spontaneously fermented. Allagash also does spontaneously fermented lambics, they even built a coolship in their barrel house and open the windows above it to let the critters in.
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That is every bit as much of a lambic as any beer brewed in the Senne Valley. Will it taste the same as Cantillon or Lindemans? No but it is just as valid of an example because it is still a wheat based spontaneously fermented sour ale. I have even heard since most of the cherry orchards in the Senne region have been taken out you can't even spontaneously ferment the same product you could decades ago. I think it was in Wild Brews Jeff talked about how when they have to replace structures in the breweries they reuse the rafters and parts of the ceiling because that is where the concentration of critters is. If those buildings burned down and were rebuilt in the same exact location today, they would still not be able to brew the same beers.

I brew lambics as close to traditional as I can. I age hops, I use 30% raw wheat, I turbid mash, I even barrel age and blend. I do not however spontaneously ferment. 98% of the people who drink my beer will not care and neither do I. For me, it is far too long and labor intensive of a process to risk having it taste like vomit after 2 years of waiting. I'm not super anal about sanitation when brewing them because I want some local critters in there and I pitch dregs from American sours to change up the character, but I want to have at least some control over what my final product tastes like. If that makes some old guy in Belgium look down his nose at me and claim I am not really making lambics...well I can live with that, I just won't share any with him.
 
According to wikipedia, lambic is a legally protected appellation in the EU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambic#Types_of_lambic_and_derived_beers

That means that only beers from the Senne Valley and meeting other definitions can be marketed as lambic in the EU. As an American, you can do whatever you want but similar to an American winery marketing a "Champagne" you will look to the informed as though you are ignorant of or willingly disrespectful of European appellations.

How hard is it to say "lambic style"?
 
According to wikipedia, lambic is a legally protected appellation in the EU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambic#Types_of_lambic_and_derived_beers

That means that only beers from the Senne Valley and meeting other definitions can be marketed as lambic in the EU. As an American, you can do whatever you want but similar to an American winery marketing a "Champagne" you will look to the informed as though you are ignorant of or willingly disrespectful of European appellations.

How hard is it to say "lambic style"?
Wow, I had not heard this ever before in my Lambic research but due to some recent changes I stand corrected. As of May 2009 Lambics and their subcategories are protected in name with a Traditional Speciality Guaranteed status.

Source: http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/quality/policy/com2009_234/ia_annex_c_en.pdf

Looks like HORAL has been doing their job.

Edit: Nevermind, it's only certified TSG without reservation, so all you American brewers can continue to call your spontaneously fermented wheat beers lambics you just can't put a TSG stamp on the bottle. No other appellation is listed in the wikipedia article you linked.

Also, even if it was TSG certified with reservation that is a totally different system from Geological Indicators and only refers to traditional ingredients and production methods and has nothing do to with where it's produced.

Agricultural Product Quality Policy said:
It has to be noted that TSG differs from the system for geological indications (GI) since it does not refer to origin. In fact, the system is drawn so that any producer complying with the product specification may use the registered name together with the TSG indication, abbreviation or logo on the labeling of an agricultural product or foodstuff.
Myth busted. I am still looking further into other appellations. The only info I have found so far is a Michael Jackson article saying it must by appellation contain at least 30% unmalted wheat (this would fall under the TSG) and an Oakland Tribune article saying it must be made in the Senne Valley, but neither one lists their source. The only appellation I can find on the EU website is TSG...there doesn't appear to be a PDO or PGI for it so I am inclined to think the Oakland Tribue was mistaken.

Edit 2: According to this 2009 published atlas that has all TSG, PDO and PGI certified products Lambics are ONLY TSG certified without reservation. This means any brewer anywhere in the world can call their beer a Lambic and those using traditional ingredients and methods can even get a TSG appellation stamp. So yeah, myth busted.

http://www.qualivita.it/site/_page/Qualigeo_Atlas.pdf
 
Actually, I take back my previous post. Reading of the fine print reveals that there is two types of TSG certification, without reservation and with reservation. Lambic is without reservation, meaning anyone anywhere can call their beer Lambic they just can't put that it is TSG certified unless it conforms to their standards.
 
Wow, yeah, gonna have to get the hang of basic lagers and ales before I delve into this. Sounds intense.

I disagree, the main difference is with the time spent fermenting a "pLambic". It isn't any harder to brew than any other batch, unless you do a turbid mash on it; which, I don't think is completely necessary to make a good sour lambic, especially your first one.

Here is a great write up the Oldsock did earlier this month:

http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/2009/11/brewing-sour-beer-at-home.html

Do not be scared, just do a quick and dirty single infusion! Save the turbid for when you really want to get adventurous!
 
Do not be scared, just do a quick and dirty single infusion!
I agree with this, if you aren't ready to do all the traditional things that's okay. There is even guys out there making extract ones with maltodextrin that apparently turn out pretty nice. If you do go with the single infusion mash I would at least add some flour, you want some starches in there for the bugs to chew on over the years. I do a turbid mash because I only do one lambic a year and it's kind of a ritual, but I bet you could get every bit as good of a beer using Jeff Sparrow modified cereal mash that he details in Wild Brews. This would also allow you to use raw wheat.
 
All this discussion about Belgian snobbery and appellations is really interesting, but what I really meant about not brewing Lambics outside the Senne valley is more practical. With the cultures available to homebrewers today, we can make very good approximations to what ferments naturally there. I would call the homebrew version pLambic, and I think this is pretty standard. But spontaneous fermentation is something different - there is no attempt to match the critters that ferment the traditional Lambic. A spontaneously fermented wheat ale from my region may be wonderful (though sadly, that is not my experience), but I don't think most people would consider it a Lambic (snobbery and appelations aside).
 
A spontaneously fermented wheat ale from my region may be wonderful (though sadly, that is not my experience), but I don't think most people would consider it a Lambic (snobbery and appelations aside).

Interesting subject to me,

So do you call the american spontaneously fermented wheat a lambic style or pLambic or simply a wild brew and leave lambic out of it. For instance I have a flanders style brown going (with peaches). I'll call it maybe "Oud Bruin met perzik" since part of my ancestry is dutch. Should I add the county of origin or some other reference to locale to the name? What style is this entered in the brewing competitions? Other?

Was there no wild fermented barley/wheat based beers in the beginning of "american" brewing when they first brought barley to the "new world"? Did they also bring their yeast? Probably both? Did they just call it "Jedadias' beer" "Gertrudes beer"? I'm sure they didn't care, they just wanted something to deaden the pain. :rockin:
Just trying to keep this thread going for some reason, I guess.
 
Interesting questions... I'm more interested in what the name conveys to the consumer - if they feel misled, that's a fail. So if your wild brew has some reasonable resemblance to a Lambic, pLambic and Lambic-style are fine (and "Oud Bruin met perzik" for your brew is a great name, since you've followed the Oud Bruin style. Country of origin seems like good back label text if you're so inclined).

Early brewers did not understand all the mycology going on with yeast, but they surely recognized that there was something going on besides water, malt, and hops, and that using the dregs from a clean-tasting beer somehow increased the chances of getting another.

I'm interested by the idea that people do "wild ferments" - that's putting a lot of faith in local microbes, given the work/expense put into the brew. I've never tried to do this intentionally, but in 18 years of brewing I've certainly made infected batches, and have had numerous infected brews imposed upon me by homebrewing pals looking for a diagnosis. It seems that the "unusual" flavors from the uninvited critters are mostly in 3 categories: phenolic, sour, and earthy. And these general elements are all in Lambics. Unfortunately, phenolics can be pleasant (e.g., many Belgian styles, German weizen), or absolutely vile. My experience with infected brew has always been the latter. Sour can also be interesting (e.g., your Oud Bruin, Berliner Weisse, ...). My only "sour" infection was pretty clean and lactic. I didn't like it, but my 2 brew partners fought over it. I like "earthy" in small doses - but I never detected that je-ne-sais-quois essence of a nice biere de garde in any of these infected batches.

Other experiences?
 
sticky.:ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban: let's keep this one going. I've got a strawberry/currant lambic aging now. I can't think of anything new from my experience thusfar, but I want to know more!
 
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