Advice for Oaked Bourbon RIS

I'm planning on doing an Oaked Bourbon Russian Imperial Stout. Recipe is posted below, but this is my first time doing an RIS, and also my first time with Oak and/or Bourbon additions. Here's some questions I have:

1. It seems that RIS really benefit from aging. Can this aging be done in the bottle, or should it be done in the secondary. How long should I go.

2. I looked at an oak/bourbon recipe from Northern Brewer and it said to primary for 1-2 weeks, secondary for 2-3 weeks, then add the bourbon-soaked oak chips and a pint of bourbon for 1-2 weeks. If I've got the beer in secondary for say 10 months like some RIS recipes suggest, are the oak and bourbon flavors going to cause problems, or be overwhelming. If so, should I wait to add them?

3. I know it's on the bottom end of the spectrum for ABV% at only 8.0%, but I wondered how much a pint of bourbon added to 5 gals will increase the ABV.

4. When looking at starter volumes(using a stir plate), Mr. Malty says I need a 3.87L starter, but BeerSmith says 0.65L is adequate. Any insight on this? It seems like quite a discrepancy.

5. Any other ideas or recommendations are welcome.


BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - BeerSmith Home Brewing Software, Recipes, Podcast and Blog
Recipe: KGBourbon Russian Imperial Stout
Brewer: Matthew Clark
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial Stout
TYPE: Partial Mash
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 5.80 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.30 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.081 SG
Estimated Color: 39.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 80.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1 lbs Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 1 8.2 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2 4.1 %
8.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.1 %
4.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.0 %
10 lbs Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.5 SRM) Extract 5 81.6 %
1.00 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 47.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 23.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 9.5 IBUs

1. Either is fine. I'd probably let it age in the bottle, that way after it has sat for a few months you don't have additional steps to go through to have it ready to drink. A beer ageing in a bottle will also stay good longer than one in a fermenter(if you're ageing for 10 months i'd definitely bottle it).

2. The bourbon will probably be pretty consistent. I'm assuming you're using oak chips. The flavors of the oak will get stronger the longer they're in the beer, to a point. They will also begin to get weaker over time as the beer is off the oak. That being said, I'd probably leave it on the oak for a few months in a secondary. Taste it every few weeks. When it gets just right, let it go another few weeks to get to be a touch too oakey. Then bottle it and age even longer. You want the oak to be a little on the strong side if you're going to age it longer off the oak since those flavors get weaker.

3. I'm no rocket surgeon but I expect that effect will be negligible. Maybe a percent or so.

4. Well, honestly one seems a little low and one seems a little high. It's a high gravity beer though so you're going to need a big starter and a very well aerated wort. I'd err on the high side.

5. I may back off the roasted barley a little bit. I've overused that in the past and it isn't pleasant. Otherwise looks good.

Let us know how it turns out!

I have to disagree with TheBaconator on some points, and strongly agree on others.

1. Bottle ageing is not a perfect substitute for bulk ageing. In general, the bigger the beer, the longer you'll want to bulk age. It doesn't have to be for something like 10 months, but it is not uncommon to bulk age beer for quite a while.

2. If you're using oak chips and not cubes, don't leave it for months. See this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/tips-wood-aging-119445/
2oz for a couple weeks is probably appropriate since the beer has a lot of other powerful flavors. The whiskey will be very strong. I've used 8oz, and it was quite present in a similar stout. That said, next time I do it I'll bump it up to 12oz, and I think 16oz will be fine, but very forward.

3. Hey! Exactly 1% when you're using 80 proof whiskey in 5 gallons.

4. Yes. Lots and lots of yeast. Err on the high side. What strain are you going with?

5. The roasted barley is a personal taste thing. It will be perfectly fine, so long as you like a very roast-y flavor.

Warrior is great for bittering, but does not have a very flavorful contribution to the end of the boil. Just as a suggestion, I would say consider subbing out the late additions of Warrior with Willamette. The Warrior/Willamette combo is great in big roast-y beers.

Good comments above.

For the ABV boost of bourbon, it's just a weighted average. You know the volume & ABV of each, so you can get volume of alcohol of each, add together, then divide by total volume:

5gal beer x 8% ABV = 0.4gal alcohol x 128oz/gal = 51.2oz alcohol from beer
16oz bourbon x 40% ABV = 6.4oz alcohol from bourbon
51.2oz + 6.4oz = 57.6oz alcohol total
5gal beer x 128oz/gal = 640oz + 16oz bourbon = 656oz total
57.6oz alcohol volume / 656 total volume = 8.78% ABV

It's more accurate if you covert to weight and adjust for temperature, but this should get you close enough.

And +1 for short time with chips. A week or two works great. You don't want woodchip-flavored beer.

And know what you like with roasted barley. If you like it, great, but if not, know what you're adding. I, personally, use it very sparingly.

TyTanium said:

For the ABV boost of bourbon, it's just a weighted average. You know the volume & ABV of each, so you can get volume of alcohol of each, add together, then divide by total volume:

5gal beer x 8% ABV = 0.4gal alcohol x 128oz/gal = 51.2oz alcohol from beer
16oz bourbon x 40% ABV = 6.4oz alcohol from bourbon
51.2oz + 6.4oz = 57.6oz alcohol total
5gal beer x 128oz/gal = 640oz + 16oz bourbon = 656oz total
57.6oz alcohol volume / 656 total volume = 8.78% ABV

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Aha, thanks for correcting my math. I neglected to include the volume added by the whiskey when calculating the final ABV.

Honestly just my humble opinion but I would go for oak cubes. Last few times I have used chips I was not entirely pleased with the results. A real one dimensional flavor that is a little harsh and usually I have to wait a couple of weeks for it to mellow out. Maybe its something I'm doing but I get better results with oak cubes. The cubes require more contact time but I get more of those wonderful flavors I associate with oak from the cubes. YMMV.

Thanks for the insight here!

If you're using oak chips and not cubes, don't leave it for months. See this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/tips-wood-aging-119445/
2oz for a couple weeks is probably appropriate since the beer has a lot of other powerful flavors. The whiskey will be very strong. I've used 8oz, and it was quite present in a similar stout. That said, next time I do it I'll bump it up to 12oz, and I think 16oz will be fine, but very forward.

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Thanks for the link, very helpful. I guess I misspoke when I said chips. I was planning on using cubes, although, I see you CAN use chips. From what I've read, medium-plus is the way to go, but I can't quite decide on whether to use French or American cubes. The whiskey I'm using is Stranahan's, so it's pretty smooth to begin with.

As far as the roasted barley, the only recipe I've ever used it in is this, and I was extremely happy with the results. I don't know if this is a lot of roasted barley or a little or in between.

Recipe: Cabra Cuerda Stout
Yeast: Wyeast London Ale 1028
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.070
Final Gravity: 1.022
ABV: 6.7%
IBU: 38
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 37 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21 days @ 68-72
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 7 days @ 68-72
Date: 3/10/11

Ingredients

7.00 lb Amber Liquid Extract
1.50 lb Oats, Flaked
1.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row)
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
0.75 lb Chocolate Malt
0.50 lb Roasted Barley

2.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min)

6 oz. unsweetened cocoa powder (last 10 mins of boil)
1 lb. Lactose (last 10 mins of boil)

1 Vanilla Bean [split and added to secondary]
3 Serrano Peppers, flame roasted, split, and added to secondary
2 Large Poblano Peppers, flame roasted, split, and added to secondary

1 Wyeast London Ale 1028

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Lastly, how long should I secondary or age this thing? Give me an envelope!

Clark

mtcpilot said:

As far as the roasted barley, the only recipe I've ever used it in is this, and I was extremely happy with the results. I don't know if this is a lot of roasted barley or a little or in between.

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Why not try splitting the difference for this time and if you want more, try more next time? Say .75lbs chocolate malt and .75lbs roasted barley. Personally, I don't think 1lb of roasted is too much at all, but if you're concerned, it may be better to play it safe.

mtcpilot said:

Lastly, how long should I secondary or age this thing? Give me an envelope!

Click to expand...

I've never used oak cubes, so maybe someone with more experience can chime in, but I'd say do your usual primary time, then put it on the oak cubes for a month or two. (you can taste periodically for the right amount of time)

So I went to the LHBS today to get my ingredients and hit some stumbling blocks. They were completely out of Special B. They said there was a bad roast and it dropped the supply way down. A brewery had just come in the day before and bought out their entire supply. I bought some darker Crystal (150L) instead. They were also completely out of Warrior. I ended up buying a pound of Cascade, a pound of Amarillo, and a pound of Simcoe. I'm a huge fan of all 3 in IPAs, but which and how do you suggest I go about using these guys instead.

Clark

mtcpilot said:

They were also completely out of Warrior. I ended up buying a pound of Cascade, a pound of Amarillo, and a pound of Simcoe. I'm a huge fan of all 3 in IPAs, but which and how do you suggest I go about using these guys instead.

Clark

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I ended up going with 1.5 oz of Simcoe @ 60, 1.5 Amarillo @ 15, and 1.5 Cascade @ 5 mins. It's been in primary for 18 days. I'm transferring it to secondary as I write this, and am wondering how long I should soak the oak cubes in the pint of Stranahan's. I'm letting it secondary for 2-3 weeks and thinking of letting the oak soak in the bourbon for that same time, then throw the cubes AND bourbon in the secondary, let age for 9 months (it will make great beer at Elk Camp). Any opinions on if this is too long to let the cubes soak in the bourbon?

Not too long - don't think there such a thing as soaking too long in bourbon. I think I saw one guy that soaked for a year.