Piraat "Belgium Tripel IPA" Clone Help...Arrgh!

sorry, i kinda skimmed through last time and didn't catch everything. you're at about 67% apparent attenuation and you probably can get to around 75%...i'd shoot for 1.024 at the most.

jumped the gun on the fusels, too, you'll be fine in the 70s. i would never ferment in the 80s, personally.

i'd let it sit for another month in the secondary (at least) and then go straight to bottle.

all-grain...did you use any sugar? you could also dump some sugar in there to get the fermentation rolling again, and it would be true to style.

Don't apologize to me, I have valued your input on this brew,(read back to the start of the thread). I agree on the temps. I used 1 lb of invert sugar in the last 15 minutes. Unfortunately consistency is not in place yet as I keep changing one thing or another in the equipment or process. I'm hoping to get back to my hop experiments with standardized equipment and constant recipe within a couple months, But I will still play with other styles and techniques to find every minor improvement. Until then I take what works and add it and drop what doesn't. I have you on the "save one for list". hoping to start sharing around March-June.

i'm sure it will be fine. i'm actually digging up a dark strong ale from under my friend's steps some time this month. perhaps i'll save a bottle to swap with you (if it's any good...that was my first dark strong )

DeathBrewer said:

it works wonders. my friend is trying this method to "step up" a barleywine (all extract) and get it >20% ABV.

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How is this working? I would be curious to know the details!

i think he's done...it was at about 22% when i last tasted it. it tasted nice and clean, too. he used a couple of yeasts (WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale Yeast and a Champagne yeast if memory serves) throughout the process and fermented at a very low temperature to ensure minimal fusel alcohols and esters. i'll have to ask him where he's at next time i see him.

I'd like to hear the sugar and yeast schedule when you have a chance to see him. What was the IBUs on that monster?

DB, I checked gravity on the 2 gallon(extra) today and it was 1.022. The hydro sample was crystal clear and tasted very nice. Now if the 10G ever finishes(still fermenting) it should be even better since the spice and sweet orange peel elixir was added to that. My first batch that stalled and I think I saved it! Woot! If my 9-9-09 barleywine is half as good as this it should be a great brew too. Happy Camper signing off.

awesome! glad to hear it!

i still need to brew the 09/09/09. i'm doing some serious slacking on that one, but it will be worth the wait. i'm doing two mashes (reiterative mashing) and making a big beer and a small beer (maybe 3!)

*Bump*

Drinking a Piraat right now. Have to say, its a bit sweeter than most of the Belgian Tripels or Golden Strong Ales I have had. I expected it to be a little hoppier based on the IPA descriptor. I like it, but would want a drier finish on anything I made.

Revvy, you ever make this? What recipe you end up with?

s3n8 said:

*Bump*

Drinking a Piraat right now. Have to say, its a bit sweeter than most of the Belgian Tripels or Golden Strong Ales I have had. I expected it to be a little hoppier based on the IPA descriptor. I like it, but would want a drier finish on anything I made.

Revvy, you ever make this? What recipe you end up with?

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Not yet, I may do this over Christmas. I'm putting together a to brew list for the 2 weeks I'm off....this may be on it.

Actually thanks for bumping it, I forgot about it...

I wonder if beer thirty has tasted his.

Revvy said:

Not yet, I may do this over Christmas. I'm putting together a to brew list for the 2 weeks I'm off....this may be on it.

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Wait just a minute... What kind of reverend gets 2weeks off for Christmas?

My neighbor and I are doing a 10gallon batch of Tripel this weekend. I think. My idea for a small batch of starter is still bubbling with 2" krausen.

Maybe that wasnt such a smart idea.

s3n8 said:

Wait just a minute... What kind of reverend gets 2weeks off for Christmas?

My neighbor and I are doing a 10gallon batch of Tripel this weekend. I think. My idea for a small batch of starter is still bubbling with 2" krausen.

Maybe that wasnt such a smart idea.

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A reverend who currently doesn't do full time church type ministry and who works for a major university, in their communication's department instead.

I stopped doing church ministry to care for my dad while he was dying, and in order to get back into doing it I would have to leave Michigan, and as long as my 84 year old mom is alive I am not doing that again...So I went back to my pre-seminary career instead, and only do ministry freelance on the side...

Revvy said:

A reverend who currently doesn't do full time church type ministry and who works for a major university, in their communication's department instead.

I stopped doing church ministry to care for my dad while he was dying, and in order to get back into doing it I would have to leave Michigan, and as long as my 84 year old mom is alive I am not doing that again...So I went back to my pre-seminary career instead, and only do ministry freelance on the side...

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Wow. I was only kiddin.

That is commendable that you put your life on hold to take care of your folks. Not many people would do that.

Academia must be fairly different than being a reverend.

--Respect

For what it's worth, I have been brewing some Belgian beers over the last year and have finally reached a point where my FG is down where I want it.

The last Quad (1.094) got 1 minute of pure O2 though a stone, built up 1 vial of yeast on a stir plate 1500mls....dump beer then 2000mls more, added yeast nutrient, fermented wlp530 at 66 deg for 2 days (with a blow off tube because it was making a huge mess) then ramped the temp up to 82 (fridge with heating pad). The FG was 1.010 after 1 week.

Tasted great going to conditioning fridge where it will spend 1 month at 34 deg. Then transfer to clean keg, warm up for 2 days to 72 in warm fridge, add fresh yeast and sugar and bottle.

Belgian yeasts are not like any other yeasts I have used and need a different approach to pitching amounts and temperature. Finally have the FG down to a nice dry level, but it took me a year to figure it out and some sweet beers.

Sorry to be some long winded, but I love brewing Belgian beers. I also love the Dark Candi sugars for darker styles.

Happy Brewing,

B-Dub

Thanks for the hints B-Dub. I think I might save the candi sugar for 2 or 3 days and add it when fermentation starts to slow. I am pitching on a cake of 3787 so I hope there is plenty of yeast. I am hoping to pitch around 70 and and let it warm up after a couple days. I am mashing for 90 at 150, and always use O2. Shooting for 1.010 FG.

Mashed at 147-149 for 90 then ramped to 170 to mash out.

I hear some of the monks add the candi syrup at 45 min during a 90 min boil.

Love this stuff!

I enjoyed reading this thread. I am putting my winter brew list together and wanted to make this.

I am curious as to which recipes were ultimately chosen and more importantly how did they turn out?

Thank you

eljefe said:

I enjoyed reading this thread. I am putting my winter brew list together and wanted to make this.

I am curious as to which recipes were ultimately chosen and more importantly how did they turn out?

Thank you

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I was just about to bump this thread to keep it alive too.... you beat me to it.

I know I would brew the first recipe. Alas, I have limited experience with Belgians.

Bump again, I too am interested. The helpful folks on here told me to try the world of Belgian when I made my post "burned out on my homebrew", I stepped into the world and I am not looking back

Revvy, Beerthirty - which recipe ended up being the one?

Another Bump. Revvy, you prefect this over the years since 2008?

I'm drinking it right now and put this together on the fly while tasting. Any thoughts?

Piraat Clone

Original Gravity (OG): 1.086 (°P): 20.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.010 (°P): 2.6
Alcohol (ABV): 9.89 %
Colour (SRM): 10.0 (EBC): 19.7
Bitterness (IBU): 31.7 (Rager)

68.75% Pilsner
9.38% Sucrose
6.25% Candi Syrup, Amber
6.25% Caravienna
6.25% Vienna
3.12% Munich I

1 oz Perle (6.5% Alpha) @ 90 Minutes (Boil)
1 oz Styrian Golding (4.4% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
1 oz Styrian Golding (4.4% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 152°F for 75 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 68°F with Wyeast 3655-PC Belgian Schelde Ale Yeast (Relatively clean, but still has those nice Belgian characteristics)

DannPM said:

Another Bump. Revvy, you prefect this over the years since 2008?

I'm drinking it right now and put this together on the fly while tasting. Any thoughts?

Piraat Clone

Original Gravity (OG): 1.086 (°P): 20.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.010 (°P): 2.6
Alcohol (ABV): 9.89 %
Colour (SRM): 10.0 (EBC): 19.7
Bitterness (IBU): 31.7 (Rager)

68.75% Pilsner
9.38% Sucrose
6.25% Candi Syrup, Amber
6.25% Caravienna
6.25% Vienna
3.12% Munich I

1 oz Perle (6.5% Alpha) @ 90 Minutes (Boil)
1 oz Styrian Golding (4.4% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
1 oz Styrian Golding (4.4% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 152°F for 75 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 68°F with Wyeast 3655-PC Belgian Schelde Ale Yeast (Relatively clean, but still has those nice Belgian characteristics)

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I recognize this is a stupid and lazy question but how do I convert the % of fermtables into the actual weight? I know if I want 10 pds of grain it would be 6.875 lbs of pilsner but I don't think 10lbs is the target weight. Thank you for any help you can provide. I would like to try this. Thanks

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the reason people often quote you at percentages is because the efficiency of brewers and their setups can change. You need to gauge your efficiency and then use that to determine how much grain you need and then use the percentages to balance the flavor and fermentables profile. I'd guess that you'd want around 20 pounds of grain that has fermentable sugars. Use that as a starting point.

shaqmobile said:

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the reason people often quote you at percentages is because the efficiency of brewers and their setups can change. You need to gauge your efficiency and then use that to determine how much grain you need and then use the percentages to balance the flavor and fermentables profile. I'd guess that you'd want around 20 pounds of grain that has fermentable sugars. Use that as a starting point.

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Thank you, that makes sense. I will give 20 lbs a try and see how it works.

So I'm interested in brewing this recipe. I found it in CloneBrews by Szamatulski and it looks very similar to one of Revy's recipes:

16.8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel 88.2 %
8.0 oz Crystal Malt - 10L 2.6 %
4.0 oz Aromatic Malt 1.3 %
1 lbs Rice Solids 5.2 %
8.0 oz Candi Sugar, Clear 2.6 %

0.65 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] 60.0 min 12.0 IBUs
1.00 tsp Irish Moss 15.0 min -
0.50 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] 15.0 min 3.1 IBUs
0.50 tsp Coriander Seed 15.0 min -
0.50 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] 5.0 min 1.2 IBUs
1.00 tsp Orange Peel, Sweet 5.0 min -

Yeast: 1st Choice Wyeast 1214 @ 68-73 F, 2nd Choice Wyeast 1762 @ 68-73 F
Add Danstar Windsor Ale yeast or WLP099 to secondary

This looks very similar to one of the first recipes Revy posted. I might do a mix of the 2 (leave out rice syrup, up the pilsner to 17#, and up the sugar to 1#, gives me 1.100 OG in BS2 with CloneBrews version at 1.102 and Revy's 1st recipe at 1.101)

Also I might try doing a stepped infusion mash instead of single if this turns out well. See if it adds anything.

eljefe said:

Thank you, that makes sense. I will give 20 lbs a try and see how it works.

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I also want to add that 20lbs is for average efficiency without sparging. If I don't sparge and just drain my mash, it's around 45% efficiency. You can always boost the gravity with table sugar (don't exceed 10% of the fermentable sugar in weight).

Also, keep in mind that with high alcohol brews the yeast is more temperamental. You need to try and cater to it as much as possible. Keep your temps relatively static, a small starter won't hurt and aerate your wort as much as you can! For the average homebrewer, it's almost impossible to over oxygenate your wort. Piraat is pretty dry, so you want your yeast to be as healthy as possible to gobble up that sugar and exist in such a high alcohol environment. You want to keep it between 68-80F. Generally speaking, the higher the temp the funkier the flavor. 68-75 is probably ideal for a Piraat clone.

Revvy said:

The first and last ones seem the most promising...at least they hit the ABV dead on...

I can't figure out where the distinctive apple-ness might come from..Is it from the WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity which 3 of them use?

Suggestions, Ideas, practical experience anyone?

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Acetaldehyde is an organic compound that is produced during the conversion of sugar to ethanol. It's an intermediate phase of that conversion. It has a very distinct "green apple" flavor. If you have a significant quantity of it, that means you have incomplete fermentation. It can be caused by whatever would make your yeast give up early. Bad yeast, too much yeast, too little yeast, high temps, low temps, fluctuating temps, poor oxygen supply or primary fermentation was cut short.

Temperature, too much yeast and yeast health are where I would look first. Yeast can survive at 95 degrees but that doesn't mean you want to ferment there. Also, avoid reusing the yeast cake too many times. Make sure you use your yeast from the HBS within a week or two after purchase, the sooner the better.

shaqmobile said:

I also want to add that 20lbs is for average efficiency without sparging. If I don't sparge and just drain my mash, it's around 45% efficiency. You can always boost the gravity with table sugar (don't exceed 10% of the fermentable sugar in weight).

Also, keep in mind that with high alcohol brews the yeast is more temperamental. You need to try and cater to it as much as possible. Keep your temps relatively static, a small starter won't hurt and aerate your wort as much as you can! For the average homebrewer, it's almost impossible to over oxygenate your wort. Piraat is pretty dry, so you want your yeast to be as healthy as possible to gobble up that sugar and exist in such a high alcohol environment. You want to keep it between 68-80F. Generally speaking, the higher the temp the funkier the flavor. 68-75 is probably ideal for a Piraat clone.

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Actually according brew like a monk for Belgian beers you normally want between 10-20% sugar. Just have plenty of healthy yeast. Many trappist beers pitch at around 68 or 70 but let it rise to 80. The general consensus was that you have to get to know your yeast and know what you want out of it.

One of my favorite beers.... on sunday for the COWBOY v steeler game we are opening a 9L bottle of piraat, hope this is an inspiration to find a great clone. The bottle is a bit turned to hide the fact that the label is torn, and yes that is a 1/2 barrel keg next to it and a 5gal coleman behind it.

Ermagherd!!1 ^^^

OK, I'm reviving this thread because I want to brew a Piraat clone, and (unless I missed something in the past 7 pages of the thread), I never really found any feedback on that 1st recipe Revvy posted. That's the one I am sort of drawn to, and would like to know if anyone has brewed it.

17 Lb's Belgian Pilsner malt, 1/2 lb. crystal 20 L., 4 oz. Cara-Vienna, 4 oz. Aromatic. 1 Lb. Belgian light candi sugar, 1 oz. Brewers Gold @ 5 AAU (60 min), 1 oz. Styrian Golding with 1/2 tsp.Crushed Coriander(15 min.) 1/2 oz. Styrian Golding with 1/2 tsp.Crushed Coriander @ 1 tsp Sweet orange peel (10 min), White Labs WLP500 Trappist Yeast, Prime with 1-1/4 Cup wheat DME.

Best mashed @ 152 Degrees for appoxx. 90 min. Depending on your efficiency you should have a 10/10-1/2 Alcolhol."

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Any thoughts, and anyone tweak this one?

I'd also like to see if anyone else has input on this! I'd like to clone Piraat.

Resurrecting this thread, but an attempt on this was next up on my brew list and got knocked out this weekend. My version will mostly be based (but modified) on the first recipe from Revvy's post.

My recipe:
7.75 gal pre-boil
6.25 gal post boil (90 mins)
5.5 gal into the fermenter

17 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 83.2 %
1 lbs Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.9 %
10.0 oz Caravienne Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.1 %
5.0 oz Carahell (10.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.5 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 7 25.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 15.0 mi Hop 8 3.8 IBUs
0.50 tsp Coriander Seed (Boil 15.0 mins) Spice 9 -
0.50 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 1.5 IBUs
1.00 tsp Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 13 -
0.50 tsp Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 14 -
1.0 pkg Trappist Ale (White Labs #WLP500) [35.49 Yeast 15 -
1 lbs 8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 16 7.3 %

I'm using some extract since reaching 10.5% overwhelms my mash tun and effiency would plummet anyway. Adding a bit of wheat malt since after pouring a bottle into a snifter the real version is quite hazy and has a bit of that sticky, wheaty mouth feel. Finally subbing in Northern Brewer for bittering as I have a bunch of it in my freezer.

I'm not really sure WLP500 will be the best yeast for this, but I'm not very versed with the Belgian yeasts so I may have to brew this a few times with different yeasts to test.. oh the humanity.

We have any new info on a clone of this?
Would like to give it a try myself.