Diseases and infections?

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BadgerBrigade

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I don't have any personally...
But I'm wondering what are possible diseases and infections you can get in your cider?
Can someone may be put down a list, may be a few words about them and how they can be remedied?
 
Diseased cider? That's sounds gross.

Any of the beer spoilage organisms can contaminate cider, especially Acetobacter, resulting in apple cider vinegar (which does have its uses). The souring bacteria can also easily contaminate cider, including Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus, Pediococcus, which may or may not result in something gross.

Post infection, you are stuck with what you got. Preventing contamination comes with good sanitizing practice, just the same as beer.
 
It's not a disease or infection per se...but Wet Cardboard, Prune or Sherry Flavors come to mind when I think of issues with bottled brews.
 
Pickled_Pepper said:
It's not a disease or infection per se...but Wet Cardboard, Prune or Sherry Flavors come to mind when I think of issues with bottled brews.

Yes, my test batch of Blackcherry has a prune meat juice taste to it? What's that
 
Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus, Pediococcus?
Can someone explain these infections, what they do and how to fix them?
 
Carboard, Prune and Sherry are usually associated with oxidation. I've tasted it in some beers I stashed and found about 10 years later...I've never tasted oxidation in my ciders.
 
Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus, Pediococcus?
Can someone explain these infections, what they do and how to fix them?

These yeast (Brett) and bacteria (Lacto/Pedio/Aceto) are ubiquitous in the environment, ie. they are everywhere. Brett can ferment sugars that Sacc cannot, and also produce phenols and acetic acid as byproducts of fermentation. Lactobacillus and Pediococcus produced lactic acid and some diacetyl as byproducts of fermentation. Acetobacter can convert the ethanol in your fermented wine/cider into acetic acid (vinegar).

It is hard to "fix" contamination with these organisms after it has occured. It is best to try and prevent contamination. Sulphur dioxide is used to stop the growth of these organisms, and can be used to make your wine/cider as the paper said "microbiologically stable." Although once contamination has occurred, and off flavors are being produced, it is too late.
 
Keeping oxygen out will prevent most infections because things like acetobacter and film yeast are aerobic. These are 2 of the commonest infections (film yeast and acetobacter both float on the surface). Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) like pediococcus eat the malic acid, so doing a MLF will protect against them, also so2. Wild yeast like brett are less of a problem in cider than wine, and can be prevented by using so2. If you keep air out, have a pH under 3.6 and use so2 you are very unlikely to have problems, the only exception is H2S (rotten eggs) which isn't an infection.
 
This is a topic which has been bugging me for about a year now. If you would be so kind as too indulge me . . . ;)

Rant on-

One of the best things a cidermaker can do to improve their products is to educate themselves in regards to common wine faults and flaws. Gaining a sensory awareness of issues is the first step in prevention and treatment. I've found this to be generally lacking in US cider culture, among both amateurs and professionals (which is especially frustrating). Interestingly enough, this ignorance doesn't seems to be as prevalent in the wine or beer world, were sensory evaluation is one of the first things taught/learned. This lack of proper understanding based on low experience is creating a belief among many new consumers (most cider drinkers are new to cider as a product) that these faults and flaws are "just how cider is supposed to taste" and irks me to no end.

As part of my job I taste and evaluate a pretty wide range of both homemade and commercial craft ciders on a regular basis. I'd venture to guess that around 60% have some sort of significant flaw with diacetyl VA, & oxidation being the main culprits.

Take a wines class, the BJCP exam, or just read up online. Much of the information applies to cider as well.
http://www.bcawa.ca/winemaking/flaws.htm
http://www.cider.org.uk/frameset.htm

DO NOT ACCEPT SUB-PAR CIDER

-Rant off :drunk:

Luckily, minimizing exposure to air and the proper use of sulfites are two of the best tools available to cidermakers looking to avoid infection and they are cheap, easy, & inexpensive.




Wild yeast like brett are less of a problem in cider than wine

This seems counter to logic as cider has a lower ABV and higher pH than most wines, leaving it more vulnerable overall. Could you expand on this thought? I may be missing something.
 
This seems counter to logic as cider has a lower ABV and higher pH than most wines, leaving it more vulnerable overall. Could you expand on this thought? I may be missing something.

Wild yeast cause most problems in red wine, when the proper yeast have trouble fermenting dry because of the high alcohol levels. It is very easy to get a bit of residual sugar and high pH. When the saccharomyces yeast stop working it allows the brett type yeasts to reactivate and consume that last little bit of residual sugar, if so2 levels have also dropped due to binding with the pigments in red wine it is worse. With cider it is easier to ferment dry because the alcohol is lower, and also you can keep the pH and so2 levels right easily. Also it is just from my own experience, I never have trouble with wild yeast in cider even though I don't use so2.
 
You don't fix infections, you prevent them. Each of those bacteria adds their own waste products to the cider and either you like the result, or you dump it.

But, remember that strong ciders can have a nasty edge to them that will mellow out in time. One of the best experiences I've had was attending an 'off flavor' class at OSU. It really clarified what was hopelessly damaged vs what would age out.
 
Wild yeast cause most problems in red wine, when the proper yeast have trouble fermenting dry because of the high alcohol levels. It is very easy to get a bit of residual sugar and high pH. When the saccharomyces yeast stop working it allows the brett type yeasts to reactivate and consume that last little bit of residual sugar, if so2 levels have also dropped due to binding with the pigments in red wine it is worse. With cider it is easier to ferment dry because the alcohol is lower, and also you can keep the pH and so2 levels right easily. Also it is just from my own experience, I never have trouble with wild yeast in cider even though I don't use so2.

Thanks greg, that makes sense, I'll be the first to admit that I know relatively little about the nuances of winemaking. Not too many stuck fermentations in the cider world but that actually matches which my anecdotal experience with brett in cider mainly being an issue once already in the bottle.
 
From reports that I have heard it may be that you have tasted LAB off-flavours rather than brett, from a wild MLF. According to Andrew Lea this is a common cause of contamination, but it is impossible to know for sure.
 
This information absolutely rocks! A little difficult to follow because I'm still a bit wet behind the ears But I will start taking the keywords (LAB, saccharomyces, MLF?) and researching right away!

Greg, LeB; you guys are ACES!
 
If you get acetobacter and film yeast, you can have a good idea what it is and the causes. With mousey, sticking plaster or baynyard flavours it is very difficult to know the exact problem, but probably you need more so2 and to ensure that the fermentation and MLF finish fully. Of course some people want residual sugar for sweetness, in which case it is even more important to keep the so2 levels right. As long as you keep all your equipment clean, sanitation is rarely a direct cause of problems.
 
I agree that Brett if often the scapegoat for many off flavors which can be caused by other bugs. That being said, if it's got the band-aid, the funk, and the horse blanket all in one then I'm blaming Brett. :p

To a certain extent, identifying the exact bug causing the problem is unnecessary, as the treatment is the same. If I find a film floating in one of my ciders, I definitely won't waste time trying to figure out if it's Candida, Acetobacter, or Zymomonas. Instead, I'll be getting ready to rack off, dose, and/or bottle and pasteurize ASAP and identify why it happened in the first place.
 
LeBreton said:
I agree that Brett if often the scapegoat for many off flavors which can be caused by other bugs. That being said, if it's got the band-aid, the funk, and the horse blanket all in one then I'm blaming Brett. :p

To a certain extent, identifying the exact bug causing the problem is unnecessary, as the treatment is the same. If I find a film floating in one of my ciders, I definitely won't waste time trying to figure out if it's Candida, Acetobacter, or Zymomonas. Instead, I'll be getting ready to rack off, dose, and/or bottle and pasteurize ASAP and identify why it happened in the first place.

Candida? Pretty sure people can get this? What is that? I was told by a doc once I may have a light form of this...?!?
 
BadgerBrigade said:
Candida? Can people get this? What is that?

The reason I ask is I had a very violent fermentation and the airlock has been bubbling every second for almost 7 days...
I have a lot of bubbles on the surface and I wonder the different between heathy foam head and unhealthy film?

LeB, do u ever teach this subject at work or in your area...? I would travel from Cali all the way to N.Y. Just to learn from you dude! LEBADASS!
 
I wouldn't sweat over bubbles, so long as the ferment is going strong you should be happy. Like candida, both humans and cider can also get infected by strep.

I'm actually gonna be in your neck of the woods in about a week. Mountain View specifically, any suggestions for libations in that area?
 
LeBreton said:
I wouldn't sweat over bubbles, so long as the ferment is going strong you should be happy. Like candida, both humans and cider can also get infected by strep.

I'm actually gonna be in your neck of the woods in about a week. Mountain View specifically, any suggestions for libations in that area?

Don't really know Mountain View but If you want to go to a real cool Cider bar My girlfriend and I will come pick you up in Mountain View and take about a 40 minute trip north to San Francisco and go to UpCider! One of the coolest bars I've ever been to in the city! I think they have close to 80 different types of cider! Plus beer and wine...
And the food is absolutely amazing! Lots of wild variety.... a pretty good amount of vegetarian stuff but if you're a carnivore like myself They have these Turkish lamb sliders Which probably came from the hands of God himself... Lol
Not to mention their pulled pork sliders, Which doesn't really sound like anything out of the norm in until you eat one....
 
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