How much water for steeping?

I'll be brewing a NB Irish Red extract kit on Friday (my 3rd batch). I got a 9 gallon brew pot and gas burner for Christmas, so this will be my first full boil. Is it ok to steep grains in the full 6 gallons of water, or does this need to be done with a smaller amount?

How much grain are we talking about here?

And all extract not partial mash, correct?

steeping for partial mashes doesn't matter too much no, just do it in the full amount of water, then add the extract. you will extract some of the sugars from the grains as well as flavor/color. This isn't enough to significantly alter the OG anyway. In all grain, you need to figure out what water to grist ratio you need for optimal mashing, but in a partial mash its more about the flavors/colors than extract potential.

jmkratt, I was undrer the impression that any time you soak grains in the water prior to adding extract it IS a partial mash... am I wrong?

jmkratt said:

How much grain are we talking about here?

And all extract not partial mash, correct?

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One pound of specialty grains and yes, all extract.

I should have phrased that better in retrospect. Obviously if you are steeping you aren't using all Extract. I probably overly confused te situation, sorry. What I meant to confirm is the kit is an extract kit not a partial mash kit correct?

Steeping and Mashing are not the same though the principle is very similar.

Check this link out for the difference:

http://***********/stories/wizard/a...-basically-involve-soaking-grain-in-hot-water

Id just soak it in the full amount. The only reason you need ratios when mashing grains is to create an environment to allow the process to work. With speciality grains there is no conversion required and so it is not important.

Thanks guys. Would it be beneficial to steep in 5 gallons, and heat 1 gallon separately to pour through the grains in a strainer?

again I just want to make sure we're talking the right terms. I am under the impression that "partial mash' means you steep grains in the water before adding extract, any amount of grains steeped is partial mash... There's no such thing as "all extract" with grains being steeped... "all extract" to me means you get water, hops and extract and boil... end of story. but I'm often mistaken so I'm hoping someone else can shed light on that.

pompeiisneaks said:

There's no such thing as "all extract" with grains being steeped... "all extract" to me means you get water, hops and extract and boil... end of story. but I'm often mistaken so I'm hoping someone else can shed light on that.

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That is my understanding as well.

OffTheRadar said:

Thanks guys. Would it be beneficial to steep in 5 gallons, and heat 1 gallon separately to pour through the grains in a strainer?

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Are you referring to rinsing the grains? If so, you certainly can though I don't know it will really do much, but it won't hurt. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I have always though rinsing was of benefit only when mashing.

When I was brewing Extract recipes I always steeped in water at 6 quarts per pound of grain whether it was a partial or full boil. I never tried anything more than that because that's just how I learned however that was a pretty old BYO article I referenced so perhaps the ideology of volume has changed or perhaps it is irrelevant?

Also when you go up to full boil your hop utilization will increase thereby requiring less hops during the boil. I did not know this at first and brewed like normal and the beer turned out just fine but was a little more bitter.

very very slightly If you feel better doing that than by all means go for it. You will have to let the grains drain anyway to get as much flavour and colour as possible but the difference from 'sparging' the grain will be minimal.

Oh I see, thanks, I submitted that and hadn't reloaded the page for a while... So partial mash is really mashing, getting some level of the gravity from the grains, and the remainder from extract, whereas steeping grains are just for flavor/color. Got it.

pompeiisneaks said:

Oh I see, thanks, I submitted that and hadn't reloaded the page for a while... So partial mash is really mashing, getting some level of the gravity from the grains, and the remainder from extract, whereas steeping grains are just for flavor/color. Got it.

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Right, Partial Mash and Mini Mash are one and the same. You won't get the efficiency of a full mash but you can do all right.

Mashing involves converting the starch in the grains into fermentable sugar. There are some grains that must be mashed that contribute different characteristics to the beer than the base grains (which pale/light malt extract is derived from) would, hence the need to at least to a partial mash.

Steeping grains have undergone a process in which the starch has already been converted or undergone some other process where there is no longer any potential to extract fermentable sugars. These grains contribute color, flavor, body, and/or head retention.

When mashing, things like water volume, time, and temperature are more critical, whereas steeping grains can be steeped for a generic ~30 minutes at 150-170 degrees-F.

I read in another thread that it is beneficial to pour water through the grains after steeping for 20-30 mins and removing the bag from the water. I probably am referring to rinsing. Sorry, I don't have my terminology completely down yet

I thought that a partial mash was when you are mashing some grain to extract sugar, but are still supplementing some extract to get OG where it needs to be. I didn't think what I'm doing qualified because I'm only steeping specialty grains which seem to be more for color or flavor. I'm really new at this though, so I'm sure I'm wrong. Thanks again for the help!

OffTheRadar said:

I read in another thread that it is beneficial to pour water through the grains after steeping for 20-30 mins and removing the bag from the water. I probably am referring to rinsing. Sorry, I don't have my terminology completely down yet

I thought that a partial mash was when you are mashing some grain to extract sugar, but are still supplementing some extract to get OG where it needs to be. I didn't think what I'm doing qualified because I'm only steeping specialty grains which seem to be more for color or flavor. I'm really new at this though, so I'm sure I'm wrong. Thanks again for the help!

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Yeah you're fine in that your kit is made for steeping it sounds like and we have made this more complicated than your original question.

I believe you are referring to rinsing and again I have rinsed for as long as I remember but I am brewing PM batches. I think I started rinsing when I only steeped too but I don't recall for sure. I usually use 2 gallons of water at 165* and let my grain bag sit in another pot for like 10 minutes. For steeping I don't know that it matters but I don't see how it can hurt.

As to your original question do you feel comfortable moving forward? If it were me and the kit had say 1.25 pounds of grain, I would steep in 7.5 quarts. But that's just me.

Just found this link in a bookmark:

http://***********/stories/techniques/article/indices/30-extract-brewing/964-kick-up-your-kit

Tip 3. Steep small.

Does your kit instruct you to steep your specialty grains in the full amount of brewing water? This is a good way to get the most flavor from the grains, but it’s also a good way to extract harsh tannins from the grain. For a better steep, place your crushed grains in a nylon or muslin steeping bag and add only enough water to your brewpot to cover the grains. Steep the grains at temperatures anywhere from 130–170 °F (54–77 °C). When you are done, lift the grain bag out and let it drip for 15 seconds or so. If you steep the specialty grains in a separate small pot, you can be heating the bulk of your brewing water in your big brewpot during the steep. Just add the “grain tea” from the little pot to your big pot when it’s ready — in about 30 minutes.

jmkratt said:

Also when you go up to full boil your hop utilization will increase thereby requiring less hops during the boil. I did not know this at first and brewed like normal and the beer turned out just fine but was a little more bitter.

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I'm set on the steeping, but I didn't realize that I would need to adjust the amount of hops due to the full boil. Is there an easy way to figure how to adjust my hops amount?

OffTheRadar said:

I'm set on the steeping, but I didn't realize that I would need to adjust the amount of hops due to the full boil. Is there an easy way to figure how to adjust my hops amount?

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Do you have Beersmith or any other program?

If not there are free online programs you can input and adjust like hopville. I know there are more, that's just one that came to mind.

http://hopville.com/

That's what I used when I made the switch to full boil.

There may be some sort of quick conversation software or formula out there but I am not aware of any.

Check this thread out if you want more info:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/full-boil-vs-partial-boil-hops-utilization-88417/

Thats perfect, thanks for all the help!

No worries. I remember how confused I was when i made the switch and it seemed a little overwhelming but it's no big deal. You'll be fine and your beer will be good.

You can also experiment with late extract additions to your boil for hop utilization. You might look into a few threads on that if you have time.

Beersmith has a pretty good listing of grains showing what must be mashed for conversion and not.

If a grain has the necessary enzymes to convert it's (and other grains) starches into sugars in a mash, it is generally known as a base malt.
Specialty grains typically don't have the necessary enzymes to convert starches to sugars in a mash and require a base malt to convert them (they will still add colour and flavour if steeped but not fermentables). Some specialty grains (crystal malts) have already had their starches converted by other processes and will add some fermentables if steeped.

As for terminology:
All grain- uses just that (all grains) in a mash with base malt and specialty grains to convert starches to fermentable sugars.
Partial Mash (mini mash)- uses some base malt and specialty grains in a mash to get some but not all of the fermentable sugars for the beer. Extract is added to make up the difference.
Extract or extract plus steeping- All fermentable sugars come from extract. Specialty grains are steeped for colour, flavour and body but little sugar (comparatively) is gained from them.

Hope I made that somewhat understandable.

As far as steeping techniques go, I like to rinse my steeped grains to get the extra sugars and flavours that like to cling to the grain. The water I use is around 160-170 to help dissolve any sugar but not too hot where I have to worry about possible tannin extraction.

Terje