Numbers numbers everywhere! My efficiency is???

Okay, I am not too worried about what my efficiency is except for the fact that I kinda want to know for recipe formulation purposes.

I use a free program, Homebrew Formulator, and it works well but I cannot figure my efficiency. I am fairly certain it is operator error.

Firstly, It calculates mash efficiency and pre-boil mash efficiency. Which of these is the one I plug into my overall "brewery environment"? They tend to be about 10 points different all the time. Usually with the pre-boil being lower (say 62%) and then the mash efficiency being higher (say 69%). Is that right?

Admittedly I am not very good at collecting all the data needed. I seem to be all over the place too from batch to batch number wise. I would like to just have a consistent efficiency not matter what it is. Anybody help me figure out what is going on? I realize I need to give some more info but right now I am just wicked confused!

I could be in the minority but the gravity measurement of wort into the fermentor is what I would use for efficiency.

Blender said:

I could be in the minority but the gravity measurement of wort into the fermentor is what I would use for efficiency.

Click to expand...

That is okay if you use it as a function of volume other wise extra boiling would increase you effieciency

Bah Humbug said:

That is okay if you use it as a function of volume other wise extra boiling would increase you effieciency

Click to expand...

Well of course one would use it as a function of volume. You'd have to be a special kind of 'tarded to boil it down to 3 gallons and take that gravity reading and claim your efficiency is high.

Anyway...

ProMash is really weird about it. I always take my readings from the fermenter...but ProMash has 2 options: "measurement taken in kettle" and "measurement taken in fermenter". The kettle option is the default, and the numbers look normal. But if I select the "taken from fermenter" option (which is actually what I do!), which takes into account all the losses from fermenter to kettle, my numbers go through the roof. For example, the IIPA I brewed last week says 78% eff. when the "from kettle" option is selected...but I actually took the reading from the fermenter...so I select the "from fermenter" option, and what does it say? 105% efficiency! And I know I h'aint gettin no 105%. I still don't get that.

I may use Promash wrong but if I set efficiency for 70%, it calculates an OG. I have always assumed that was the fermenter measurement for the batch size. When the measurement is taken after the wort is in the fermenter I use the efficiency adjustment to adjust it up or down until it meets the OG. I use that reading for my efficiency.

Okay. Still

knights of Gambrinus said:

Okay. Still

Click to expand...

Did you try searching? I did a quick google search and found these for starters:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=46224
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=44375
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=177948
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=444941
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=38192

Evan! said:

ProMash is really weird about it. I always take my readings from the fermenter...but ProMash has 2 options: "measurement taken in kettle" and "measurement taken in fermenter". The kettle option is the default, and the numbers look normal. But if I select the "taken from fermenter" option (which is actually what I do!), which takes into account all the losses from fermenter to kettle, my numbers go through the roof. For example, the IIPA I brewed last week says 78% eff. when the "from kettle" option is selected...but I actually took the reading from the fermenter...so I select the "from fermenter" option, and what does it say? 105% efficiency! And I know I h'aint gettin no 105%. I still don't get that.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you may have a mistake in the "losses" number (which is calculated from entries elsewhere). If losses are set to zero, the efficiency number doesn't change if all you do is click from "in the kettle" to "in the fermenter".

From the ProMash help:

Measurements taken in the fermenter will consider the recorded volume plus the volume losses from the Kettle to the Fermenter (set in the Water Needed Calculator), and will also take the wort shrinkage into account for these losses. The total volume then used in the efficiency calculation is the recorded volume + all volume loss from kettle to fermenter

Click to expand...

So if your stated losses are too high, the program thinks you threw away more sugars than you did, and gives you efficiency "credit" for them even though they didn't show up in the fermenter.

Beerthoven said:

Did you try searching? I did a quick google search and found these for starters:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=46224
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=44375
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=177948
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=444941
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=38192

Click to expand...

Indeed I did. Sadly, nothing helped me to understand. I will check those threads and see if they help. Sorry to be a bother.

Any one want to tidy this up?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Efficiency

knights of Gambrinus said:

Indeed I did. Sadly, nothing helped me to understand. I will check those threads and see if they help. Sorry to be a bother.

Click to expand...

Not a bother!

I've searched for answers to my questions lots of times and often don't find an answer that suits me, so I ask.

I just thought I would throw them out there for ya.

Okay, I read all those threads. Plus the ones I had found in my search before I posted this.

I still don't understand. I guess I am just a moron.

All I want to know is how to determine what extraction I can count on from the grain so that when I make a recipe I actually get the OG I am supposed to get.

Bah Humbug said:

Any one want to tidy this up?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Efficiency

Click to expand...

I have read this article elsewhere online. Did not help me. I mean I understand the theory and how it should work. I just do not get why my numbers are all over the place and which numbers I should be focusing on to get where I want to be.

knights of Gambrinus said:

I have read this article elsewhere online. Did not help me. I mean I understand the theory and how it should work. I just do not get why my numbers are all over the place and which numbers I should be focusing on to get where I want to be.

Click to expand...

Hey Knights,

I bet if you listed the exact grain bill you used, as well as how much water you used and how much your batch ended up being, someone would work up the calculation for you. Hell, I might even do it if I find a spare minute.

I measure two places:

1) in the kettle, pre-boil, which tells me if everything went OK in the mash/sparge
2) in the fermenter; any difference here points to losses (hop absorption, kettle draining dead space, etc.) during and after the boil.

Measuring both helps you pinpoint any variations you might have.

For recipe formulation, you'd want to use #2, assuming your process (and thus losses) are fairly consistent.

My losses are very small, so my numbers are almost always within 1-2% of each other.

This is a helpful article to read: http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4.html

Click through for specific information on yields and calculations.

explosivebeer said:

This is a helpful article to read: http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4.html

Click through for specific information on yields and calculations.

Click to expand...

That's a really good reference with a good example.

In his book "Designing Great Beers" Ray Daniels has a chapter on how to hit your target OG. If you have access to a copy of that you might want to check it out, too.

As far as your question goes. It doesn't really matter which number you use. Just pick one and stick with it. If you use the mash efficiency, then design all your recipes around that number. In order to get consistency, you need to take consistent measurements. Just eye balling it isn't going to work.

I use promash and always take my reading in the fermenter. The efficiency in it is always higher than if I plug in the "taken in the kettle" button. I then set my recipe to a slightly lower number, just as a fail safe. OG is usually within a point or two of what I'm shooting for, and volume in the fermenter is relatively consistent if not a little bit more than anticipated.

Here is what I understand from efficiency calculations:

To start, say you want a 5.5 gallon 1.050 FG beer. Take the last two numbers in your FG, so for this 50, and multiply it by the gallons of wort that you put into the fermenter. So 5.5 x 50 = 275. This is your total gravity units (TG). Now this doesnt change regardless of the amount of liquid you have, so if you collect say 7 gallons in your brew kettle, you should have 275/7 gravity units, which would be about 39. So if you do your sparge and then take a pre-boil gravity reading (adjusted of course for temp) it should be around 1.039, and when boiled down to 5.5 gallons it should be around 1.050.

So to calculate your actual efficiency, just take a pre-biol measurement, multiply the gravity units by the amount of wort you collect in the brew kettle, and divide it by what the total should be. So, for example, say you collect 7 gallons of wort in the kettle with a gravity reading of 1.030. You would take 30 and multiply it by 7 gallons, to get 210 (30 x 7). So you got 210 total gravity units, and if you had perfect 100% efficiency, you would have had 275 gravity units (from above). So take 210/275 = 0.76, or 76% efficiency. I hope that helps!

Jason

I guess the problem is I miss the target or screw something up than I compensate by adding grains or DME. Then I do not know where I really stand.

Some recent brews.

American IPA: Mash Efficiency 67.7% Preboil mash efficiency 58.2%

Mild Ale: Mash Eff. 69.1% Preboil mash eff. 62.9%

Cal. Common: Mash eff. 76.4% Preboil mash eff. 62%

Something is screwy yeah?

knights of Gambrinus said:

I guess the problem is I miss the target or screw something up than I compensate by adding grains or DME. Then I do not know where I really stand.

Some recent brews.

American IPA: Mash Efficiency 67.7% Preboil mash efficiency 58.2%

Mild Ale: Mash Eff. 69.1% Preboil mash eff. 62.9%

Cal. Common: Mash eff. 76.4% Preboil mash eff. 62%

Something is screwy yeah?

Click to expand...

The efficiency will be same pre-boil or post-boil, it shouldn't matter when you take it...the only plus for taking it pre-boil is you can do something if you are way too low, like add LME or DME. I think the problem is that the software is assuming something that you are unaware of, and it is giving two different numbers. Now 65% efficiency is not horrible, you just need to take it into account when designing your recipes. So if you use a recipe that assumes 75% efficiency, just add 10% more base malt, and maybe a little more specialty grains, just make sure the proportions are the same. If the original recipe called for 80% base malt, keep it at 80% but just make it more pounds to account for your lower efficiency.

@knights can you post you actual stuff please?

Actual grain bill, sg and volume in the kettle pre-boil, sg and volume in the fermenter pre-pitch?

As one of the mathletes I'll talk you through the calcs my way, I am sure some of the other geeks will eventually do the same. surely one of us can explain it in a way that makes sense to you.

@orfy, the wiki article makes perfect sense to me. I would say to another scuba diver taking up brewing "Dalton's law" and we're done. I think we need to add another explanation to the article, or explain the same material again another way or something like that, but it is pretty tidy (to me) as is.

Poindexter said:

@knights can you post you actual stuff please?

Click to expand...

Alright. Let's use the IPA as our example. Again, the software reported 67% mash eff. and 58.2% preboil mash eff.. I'll try and give as much info as possible. Let me know If I left anything crucial out.

11 # Maris Otter (76.3%)
2 # Dark Munich (13.9%)
.50 # Carared (3.5%)
.50 # Crystal 60 (3.5%)
.25 # Biscuit (1.7%)
.13 # Special B (0.9%)
.05 # Chocalate (0.3%)
1 tsp irish moss @ 15 minutes
Hops
.75 oz. Magnum 60 min.
.25 Nugget 30 min.
.25 Cascade 20 min.
.25 Cluster 15 min.
.25 Cluster 10 min.
.25 Magnum 10 min.
.25 Nugget 5 min.
.25 Cascade 5 min.
.25 Cascade 1 min.
.40 Cascade 0 min.

1 oz. Cascade dry hop

Safale US-05 yeast.

Mashed @ 150° F for one hour. 4.40 Gallons of 163° F strike water in a preheated tun of 85° F ambient temp.

Batch sparged with 4.41 Gallons of 185° F water. Initial boil volume 6.75 Gallons with a gravity of 1.048.

90 Minute boil. 5 Gallons in the fermenter with a 1.061 gravity (huh? according to the original recipe this should be 1.057? I must have added something?). I use a 5 gallon carboy with a blow-off tube and fill it up to the neck.

Hmmmm. Looking at my software again I realized something. It has a field for final kettle volume. In this case I put in 5.75 gallons because that is what I ended up with in the kettle. perhaps this is causing the discrepencies?

So when you lit the kettle you had 6.75 gal of 1.048.

Just before you pitched you had 5.00 gallon of 1.061 in your 5.00 gallon carboy.

Did you have other post boil wort that could have been pitched if you had a bigger fermenter, or not?

Yes. How much i do not know. I did not measure what was left in the kettle. I intentionally shoot for about 5.50 gallons left so that I can leave trub/hop sediment in the kettle.

I'm having trouble resolving the difference between terms "mash efficiency" and "pre-boil mash efficiency". In my limited knowledge, these terms mean exactly the same thing. Mash efficiency is measured preboil. Now, maybe one of these is supposed to be brewhouse efficiency which takes into account kettle losses (NOT boiloff, but deadspace, hop/trub absorbtion or any other wort you don't put into the fermenter). Mash efficiency will always be a higher or equal to (unlikely) than brewhouse. After verifying what my typical efficiency is, I've stopped taking preboil gravity and just take my sample when I'm racking to the fermenter.

I'm thinking maybe you get what you pay for. Grab Beersmith for $20.

Using beertools, I got:

[size=+2]Untitled Session[/size]
[size=+1]0- Untitled Style[/size]



Size: 5 gal
Efficiency: 59.89%


Original Gravity: 1.061 (1.000 - 1.100)
|=================#==============|


[size=+1]Ingredients:[/size]
11 lbs Maris Otter Pale
2 lbs Munich Malt
1.5 lbs American Caramel 20°L


I simplified your specialties to a single crystal 20l... no big difference. The ~60% is brewhouse and it's really the most important number because that's what you got into the fermenter based on your grain bill.

i just figure it by hand on a note pad and i make it 64.6% mash efficiency and 60.8% brewhouse efficiency.

i am counting the maris otter and dark munich as base malts at 35 GU, everything but the choco and special b as caramel malts at 33 GU, the choco at 34 GU, and the speical b at 25 GU. so that makes it potential 501.2 GU. i don't really know if those extract potentials are right, it's just what i use.

6.75 at 1.048 is 324 GU for a mash eff of 64.6% (324 / 501.2)
5 gallon at 1.061 is 305 GU for brewhouse eff of 60.8% (305 / 501.2)

the brewhouse efficiency doesn't account for what you left behind, so that number is low.

I am still waiting to find out how much extra wort he had post boil. What ever efficiency any of us got when we light the fire under the kettle, I think we all agree our post boil/ pre-pitch efficiency is going to be a little lower because we leave some sugar in the hot break, and we leave some sugar in the hops.

So what you got knights?

EDIT: Also compare post 19 this thread to the wiki article. To me, I "could" have written the article as lecture notes, because that is exactly the way I understand it. The way it is explained in post 19 I understand only because I already know how to do the math, that is someone who thinks differently than me. We might need to find a third way to explain it.

I always calculate efficiency pre-boil because I want to know if I missed my SG and need to add DME. Post 19 is a good way to calculate it IMHO.

I'll try to explain efficiency in a different way. Every grain has a maximum amount of sugar molecules that it can produce in a perfect lab setting. These numbers are expressed as what this grain would produce if one pound of it was perfectly mashed and sparged, giving one gallon of wort. I think of it as a number of "molecules" in some water. So say grain x can give 1000 molecules. Well you do your mash and sparge, and of course its not perfect, because there are many variables involved (temp stabilization, losses, not perfectly milled, etc) So you get 750 molecules in your one gallon of wort. That would give you and efficiency of 750/1000 or 75%.

The thing about pre-boil and post-boil gravity readings being the same FG (when you take volume into account) can be thought of in the same way. Say you did the same mash and sparge, and got the same 750 molecules, but you did it in 2 gallons instead. You still have an absolute number of 750 molecules. So if you boil for an hour, you will evaporate some of the water, say one gallon, but the molecules are too heavy to leave the kettle. So after one hour, you will again have one gallon of wort with 750 molecules in it, the same as before. The only difference is that the gravity reading you would have had with the 2 gallon wort would have been lower, because there was more water for the molecules to spread out in.

Now inevitably, pre- and post-boil FG readings won't exactly line up because of losses of these molecules to the hot break, cold break, and hops, and whatever issues you have transferring the wort to the fermenter. This will lead to the loss of some of the absolute number of molecules that your wort contains, changing your FG slightly.

So if you just think about it as an absolute number of sugar molecules, and you are just changing the amount of water that they are distributed in, then maybe it will make more sense. One number of molecules, say 750, will be more closely packed in one gallon vs 2 gallons, and hence the FG reading will be higher in the one gallon batch, but will reflect the same amount of sugar in the batch. Help at all?

Jason

I guess it would take a second and a mod, or something, but post 32 seems like a really succinct summary.

Maybe as an introductory section to the wiki article?

Nice job Jason.

Thanks everybody. Your explanations are great. I however am quite mathmatically challenged. I am getting the gist of it though. It will take me some time to digest it all but I think I will "get it" eventually.

One definate thing is obvious. I need to take better (more accurate) readings and notes.

Poindexter,

I do not have the amount left behind. I did not measure it. Next batch I will measure EVERYTHING!

I guess for now I will plug in 60% efficiency as my "extract efficiency" and see what happens with this next recipe. Although this may not be the best batch to measure as it will be a big beer. Scotch ale with an OG of 1.087. Actually it was higher until I plugged in 60% efficiency (and added to my grain bill).

knights of Gambrinus said:

Poindexter,

I do not have the amount left behind. I did not measure it. Next batch I will measure EVERYTHING!

I guess for now I will plug in 60% efficiency as

Click to expand...

You don't have to squeeze your hot break and taste it. I was just pointing out that if there was "about a gallon" of wort left in the kettle that would be a reason for your brew hosue efficiency to drop way more than expected from your mash efficiency.

If you got your dry grain amounts, then ready to fire the kettle volume and gravity and ready to pitch yeast volume and gravity you can calculate anything later.

Besides mash eff, you can get your evaporation rate out of there, and with your evap rate you can go back to the hop U tables for those 2 missing IBUs of bitter...

Yeah, just to highlight a point, mash eff is (potential extract based on grain bill compared to actual extract based on the OG and Volume of preboil wort). The brewhouse is exactly the same exept it's compared against the OG and volume of the wort in the fermenter. If you take the OG of the wort in the fermenter and use (volume of the wort in the fermenter + volume left in the kettle) it will be the exact same number as the mash efficiency unless there is a ton of wort locked up in whole hops.

It might be easier to wrap your head around this if you think in terms of a single grain rather than a mixed bill.
2-row grain has the potential of 35 grav points per pound per gallon.
If you mash/sparge 1lb and collect 1 gallon the absolute highest (100% eff) would be a grav of 1.035.
If you measure 1.030, you figure out the eff by solving 30/35 = x/100 (ugh algebra right?) That's (30*100)/35 = 85%

Another way to look at it is, if 1lb/gal is 35 grav points then 2lbs in one gallon has the max gravity of 70 or 1.070 points (35 times 2) Twice the sugar in same amount of water.

Another way, if 1lb/gal is 35, then 1lb in TWO gallons is 17 (35 divided by 2) same sugar in twice the amount of water.

It's easy when the numbers are even but what if you mash 1.5 pounds collect 2 gallons and measure 1.021. What was your efficiency?

(remember the 35 points per pound/gallon)

(1.5 x 35)/2 = 26.25 means that 100% yield would measure 1.026.
So, you now have to figure out what percentage 21 is out of 26. (2100/26 = 80.7%)

Using that logic, you can go on to figure out mixed grain bills. In order to do that, you have to figure out the max potential gravity points of each grain by weight, then add them all together.

5 pounds of two row = 35 points x 5 pounds = 175 points per gallon.
1 pound of crystal40 = 31 points x 1 pound = 31 points per gallon.
.5 lb roasted barley = 31 points x .5 pounds = 15.5 points per gallon.

Add them all up and you get 221.5 points per gallon. Now you just need to take that number and divide by whatever volume you're getting. Let's say you mash/sparge and collect 5 gallons. Just divide 221.5 by 5 and get a max potential of 44.3 gravity points or 1.0443. We already know how to figure out efficiency by comparing measured gravity from this potential.

Jayfro21 said:

Here is what I understand from efficiency calculations:

To start, say you want a 5.5 gallon 1.050 FG beer. Take the last two numbers in your FG, so for this 50, and multiply it by the gallons of wort that you put into the fermenter. So 5.5 x 50 = 275. This is your total gravity units (TG). Now this doesnt change regardless of the amount of liquid you have, so if you collect say 7 gallons in your brew kettle, you should have 275/7 gravity units, which would be about 39. So if you do your sparge and then take a pre-boil gravity reading (adjusted of course for temp) it should be around 1.039, and when boiled down to 5.5 gallons it should be around 1.050.

So to calculate your actual efficiency, just take a pre-biol measurement, multiply the gravity units by the amount of wort you collect in the brew kettle, and divide it by what the total should be. So, for example, say you collect 7 gallons of wort in the kettle with a gravity reading of 1.030. You would take 30 and multiply it by 7 gallons, to get 210 (30 x 7). So you got 210 total gravity units, and if you had perfect 100% efficiency, you would have had 275 gravity units (from above). So take 210/275 = 0.76, or 76% efficiency. I hope that helps!

Jason

Click to expand...

Sorry to muddy the waters, but I just wanted to clarify one thing (or get clarification if I'm mistaken).

To me, this seems like a great way to calculate if you're on target with where you want to end up with your fermentable sugars, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with actual efficiency from the grains involved.

The estimated OG and FG are not based on 100% extraction efficiency, otherwise no one would be able to duplicate a recipe. I think recipes are usually around 80% efficiency but they should state that so you can scale your batch accordingly, depending if your efficiency is above or below that.

In order to actually figure out your efficiency, you have to calculate the maximum possible extraction based on your grain bill and then use your gravity and volume measurements to see how they relate.

one factor that i previously mentioned that i think is being omitted from most of the discussion, and it will affect your calculations, is the actual potential extract of each grain that you are using. in reality it varies slightly from crop to crop and would have to be determined analytically for each crop in its final state prior to mashing for better accuracy.

probably only the super-major breweries do that, and they don't usually publish their numbers. not that i've seen. plus most of us don't use a little 6-row with a ton of corn and rice to brew with, if you get my drift.

i use generally accepted average historical values at the low end of the typical ranges in my calculations. i calculate just as described in post #19, as that is how i learned it from my lhbs guy. the brew software calculators probably do similar, but i don't know for sure as i don't have one.

my point is that the potential extract numbers you use will affect your results, and at best your eff is an approximation. so i don't think people should get too hung up on it. just be consistent in how you take measurements and in what calculation tools you use and treat it as a relative measure to see which way you are going.

in the OP's case, his mash eff calculates to 64.6% based on the extract potentials i listed in my last post. if brew software calql8s something different, they must be using different extract values for the various grains. i'd call it 65% and be done.

i am not a mathlete or a chemist, so take it with a grain of barley. or better yet, with a whole bottle of homebrew. or two.

explosivebeer said:

Sorry to muddy the waters, but I just wanted to clarify one thing (or get clarification if I'm mistaken).

To me, this seems like a great way to calculate if you're on target with where you want to end up with your fermentable sugars, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with actual efficiency from the grains involved.

The estimated OG and FG are not based on 100% extraction efficiency, otherwise no one would be able to duplicate a recipe. I think recipes are usually around 80% efficiency but they should state that so you can scale your batch accordingly, depending if your efficiency is above or below that.

In order to actually figure out your efficiency, you have to calculate the maximum possible extraction based on your grain bill and then use your gravity and volume measurements to see how they relate.

Click to expand...

So I can see where the confusion is. I kind of mixed both designing a recipe, and calculating and efficiency. When designing a recipe, you choose style that usually has a range of FG. You pick one, calculate the volume you want to put in the fermenter, calculate the percentages of each grain in your recipe that make up that particular style, then use these numbers in conjunction with your own efficiency to calculate the actual amount of grain that you need.

In my post, I was assuming 100% efficiency with the 5.5 gallon 1.050 FG beer, just to show how efficiency itself is calculated using total gravity units. That is why I pointed out that if you get 65% efficiency, and you are using a recipe based on 75% efficiency, then you need to use a little more grain to make up for the differences in efficiency. The fundamental fact is that no matter what, you can still calculate what the 100% efficiency of ANY recipe is by using published average numbers, and then use your own numbers to see your own personal efficiency. Just remember that the recipe that you are trying to brew was formulated with whatever the brewer's own personal efficiency may be.

Jason

billtzk said:

.....calql8s something different.

Click to expand...

Holy sheeeiiit bro, don't.