Addressing a few myths...

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Rob-O

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HomeBrewTalk sent me an email saying I haven't done much lately (not that I ever did), so here goes:

I'm an extract-with-grains brewer. I've been doing it heavily for just over 1.5 years. I have no competitive aspirations at all. I have two children, so I have no desire to become an all-grain brewer; I can brew 1 or 2 batches of beer in 4 hours, which suits me and my schedule just fine. I love beer, so I make it and drink it. I was a nervous brewer at first, but have since taken a few chances that have helped to make it more fun and more productive. All I can say is that while I've not entered any competitions, and never will, many friends and all-grain brewers drink my beer and love it. I have done all of the things listed below successfully, with no change in taste or quality, despite being told that I should not. I don't think I'm the first to do these things; I'm just offering a definite opinion rather than speculation.

1) You CAN do secondary fermentation in a plastic primary bucket. If you're using fruit, then you MUST use a bucket. You DO NOT HAVE to use a glass secondary.

2) Get a 5-gallon pot, double all ingredients, start with 3 gallons of water, do a 4.3-gallon boil (top up before start of boil, if necessary), split the wort evenly into two buckets and top-up--you just increased your efficiency by brewing two batches at once.

3) Make a starter, regardless of gravity. You can split the starter into two different batches from above. This cuts the cost of yeast in half.

4) You can dump a new load of wort into a bucket with yeast from the previous batch (provided you transfer the first batch to secondary the same day as you brew the second batch). Scrape as much of the old hops off the top as possible first. Fermentation will start in 2 hours. You can also split the yeast into yet another bucket. I've made 5 batches of beer using the same yeast begun with one vial of WLP.

5) The best way to give beer "mouth-feel" and body (a problem for extract brewers) without just throwing in more extract (and driving up the alcohol) is to steep 1 lb of flaked or rolled oats in it at 158 degrees for 20 to 60 minutes, with the grains, if using them.

6) Steep, sparge, boil, remove from heat and add extracts, then put it back on the heat after the wort is uniform and crank it right up to High to get it to your hops boil. It's faster, and there's no difference between doing that, and bringing it up slowly, or doing some kind "rest" step before going back to boil.

7) Iodophor doesn't need to completely dry before using the item that you sanitized in it. It's basically Iodine, and we all MUST drink a minimum amount of Iodine to keep our thyroid functioning properly. Also, Iodophor doesn't stink, it's reusable, it's easy to rinse, and it won't burn your hands or throat, like bleach.

8) You CAN microwave the water that you will use for the priming sugar for 3:30 to boil it and then dump in the priming sugar. Microwaves are terrible for cooking food, but good for boiling things.

9) You CAN use a half cup of liquid extract to make your starter the night before brewing and put tinfoil over the jar and put the lid back onto the jar without attracting mold or otherwise ruining the extract, provided that you use the opened jar in your brew the next day. I hate dried extract--makes a mess.
 
Yes, I don't disagree with anything you wrote. For #7, I would go farther - if you let Iodophor (or Star San, also) dry, it is no longer effective. Its not just ok to use the sanitized items wet, its preferable.

And while I don't disagree with #9 that you can use LME to make a starter, my preference is to use DME for exactly the same reason you like LME - I find LME to be messy and DME to be very convenient.

Edit: The first part of #1 is right - you can use a plastic bucket for secondary, if you need a secondary at all, for dry hopping or fruit additions. But you go on to say that you must use a bucket if you are using fruit, which is not true. I've added fruit many times to my beer, using a glass carboy. Cut the fruit up into small-ish chunks, or puree it. Easy-peasy.
 
I love #8. So obvious, yet why didn't I think of that?

Anything else is probably a matter of opinion. I do wonder about headspace in secondary (assuming primary fermented dry). The beer has CO2 in it, and that should force some of the O2 out of the headspace... plus CO2 is heavier. I think that should give you a deep enough layer of CO2 to be safe from oxidation, but I'm not sure.
 
I love #8. So obvious, yet why didn't I think of that?

Anything else is probably a matter of opinion. I do wonder about headspace in secondary (assuming primary fermented dry). The beer has CO2 in it, and that should force some of the O2 out of the headspace... plus CO2 is heavier. I think that should give you a deep enough layer of CO2 to be safe from oxidation, but I'm not sure.

Agreed, the issue of possible oxidation is a reason not to use a secondary or bright tank at all. But if you are doing a fruit addition, then the secondary fermentation that kicks off will produce enough CO2 to fill up the head space.
 
Great list.

Here is another myth that you can add to the list.

"You need to go all grain to make good beer" Good beers are made all the time by extract/steeping grain brewers if they know what they are doing and sanitize well, pitch enough healthy yeast and control fermentation temps..
 
Here is another myth that you can add to the list.

"You need to go all grain to make good beer"

Out of all the dispute, even sometimes with arrogance, I still have never heard anyone say you can't make good beer with extract. I've heard, "My beers have greatly improved going AG" or "It cost a lot less for each batch" and "It allows me to really tweak my beer". Worst I've heard is people saying there's an extract twang you can't avoid with extract, though I've never noticed it.

Either way, I've not yet heard anyone here say that.


Rev.
 
Out of all the dispute, even sometimes with arrogance, I still have never heard anyone say you can't make good beer with extract. I've heard, "My beers have greatly improved going AG" or "It cost a lot less for each batch" and "It allows me to really tweak my beer". Worst I've heard is people saying there's an extract twang you can't avoid with extract, though I've never noticed it.

Either way, I've not yet heard anyone here say that.


Rev.

You haven't been here long enough. It used to be a constant argument/battle on here. It even prompted me to write this blog back in '08.

I don't know if that blog helped, but the argument is less and less prevalent on here these days then it was. If it does appear it usually comes from recent converts (you know all about Zealots, dontja Rev? ;)) Or those new to brewing who have read it "some where."

One of the things that helped shift the perception was so many of the "big guns" on here talking about occasionally still doing extract batches, or having to take a break from ag and still wanting to make beer.

Plus my challenge for folks to go grab an extract recipe and apply everything they've learned since their last extra batch, and see if they don't make a decent batch of beer.

The old debate has mellowed and has really come out as preferences these day, BUT it still rears it's ugly head on occasion. It's just that most folks on here have gone waaay past those silly and boring arguments.
 
Blueberrries in particular will float and restart fermentation enough to build up CO2 in the carboy and block the narrow opening. While it has never happened to me, carboys will explode--that is, the carboy will crack and break, not just pop off the airlock--so I'm told.

Oh, and I guess "MUST" is a bit harsh...it is truly a reaction to those you told me, "NEVER use a bucket for secondary." However, imagine putting 5 lbs of blueberries into a narrow opening of a carboy...

--BWIP---
That's one...
--BWIP---
That's two...
 
My ONLY rule:

Who cares what anyone else is doing?

Indeed, from the point at which I now stand...but when I started, I was thoroughly intimidated by the multitude of methods and opinions out there, some strong, some not--but it put me off from getting into brewing for a while. I guess 12,000 years brings along many, many points of view.
 
Blueberrries in particular will float and restart fermentation enough to build up CO2 in the carboy and block the narrow opening. While it has never happened to me, carboys will explode--that is, the carboy will crack and break, not just pop off the airlock--so I'm told.

Oh, and I guess "MUST" is a bit harsh...it is truly a reaction to those you told me, "NEVER use a bucket for secondary." However, imagine putting 5 lbs of blueberries into a narrow opening of a carboy...

--BWIP---
That's one...
--BWIP---
That's two...

^^^ This is why I general don't use airlocks until all vigorous fermentation has subsided. The blow off tube is your friend!

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My ONLY rule:

Who cares what anyone else is doing?

...Anybody that wants to learn more and improve. If you're okay with no longer improving that's cool, but I'm still interested in what the folks on here are doing for new methods and the results they get from the various optional methods. I've changed my brewing practice often and I'm still making small tweaks.
 
I don't think that's the point he was getting at. I think he meant to say is, who cares what other people are doing if they think it makes good beer for them.
 
Originally Posted by Airborneguy
My ONLY rule:

Who cares what anyone else is doing?

With all due respect, if we don't care what one another are doing; how can we expect to learn from each other, and why have we joined an internet forum strictly to discuss what we are all doing? Sharing best practices, is what advances any hobby, trade, or science. As far as the extract vs. all grain debate; you can make make great beer either way or you can make not so great beer either way. However, all-grain brewing is generally speaking, a more involved process. For some that is seen as a detraction, as for me i enjoy having my hands on as much of the process as possible. If i could grow and malt my own barley that would tickle me pink.:p
 
5) The best way to give beer "mouth-feel" and body (a problem for extract brewers) without just throwing in more extract (and driving up the alcohol) is to steep 1 lb of flaked or rolled oats in it at 158 degrees for 20 to 60 minutes, with the grains, if using them.

Better than maltodextrin or dextrine malt? I'd have guessed that steeping oats was a better way to add starch haze than much of anything else.
 
I don't think that's the point he was getting at. I think he meant to say is, who cares what other people are doing if they think it makes good beer for them.

DING DING DING!

There's a world of difference between caring about what someone else is doing, and paying attention and possibly learning from it. Unfortunately, all too often on this board, people get worked about about what someone else finds works for them.
 
My ONLY rule:

Who cares what anyone else is doing?

Geez guys, is this so hard to fathom?

He's talking about not judging how anyone else is brewing. Not thinking somehow that brewing Ag is BETTER than extract, or that brewing 2.5 gallons or smaller is a "waste of time" of being snobbish because someone wants to drink or brew a bmc type beer, or that batch is better than fly sparging or vice vs, or or "glass vs plastic" any of the stupid "vs" type arguments that spring up on here a lot. All those little derisive little things that often in reality means absolutely NOTHING to the yeasties that we want to do our bidding.

Yes learning from each other is what it's about....sharing our knowledge is what it's about.

But what brother Airborne is referring to is all these ideas that one way is the only way, that springs up on here....
 
Blueberrries in particular will float and restart fermentation enough to build up CO2 in the carboy and block the narrow opening. While it has never happened to me, carboys will explode--that is, the carboy will crack and break, not just pop off the airlock--so I'm told.

Oh, and I guess "MUST" is a bit harsh...it is truly a reaction to those you told me, "NEVER use a bucket for secondary." However, imagine putting 5 lbs of blueberries into a narrow opening of a carboy...

--BWIP---
That's one...
--BWIP---
That's two...

I just put three pounds of grapes and three pounds of peaches into a glass carboy yesterday. Pasteurizing, blanching and de-skinning the fruit took an hour and getting the fruit into the carboy took 30 seconds. All you need is a funnel and a chop stick.

I'm leaving that bad boy for 6 months to ferment on brett. I definitely wouldn't want to use plastic for that. So I think its fair to say "you CAN use a plastic bucket for secondary IF the conditions are right and that's what you're comfortable with." I definitely try to leave "MUST" out of anything homebrew related, b/c you'll nearly always find a situation that negates the "MUST".
 
1) You CAN do secondary fermentation in a plastic primary bucket. If you're using fruit, then you MUST use a bucket. You DO NOT HAVE to use a glass secondary.

I'm all for plastic buckets (that's all I use), but you can use a carboy for a fruit beer in the secondary. It's harder to get the fruit in and out, but you don't HAVE to use a bucket

4) You can dump a new load of wort into a bucket with yeast from the previous batch (provided you transfer the first batch to secondary the same day as you brew the second batch). Scrape as much of the old hops off the top as possible first. Fermentation will start in 2 hours. You can also split the yeast into yet another bucket. I've made 5 batches of beer using the same yeast begun with one vial of WLP.

You certainly can, but it's certainly over-pitching which can also lead to problems. You can definitely re-use that yeast, but it's so easy to measure the proper amount of slurry needed, there's no real reason not to. Sanitize a serving spoon, and measuring cup. Scoop out the proper amount, and pitch that.

5) The best way to give beer "mouth-feel" and body (a problem for extract brewers) without just throwing in more extract (and driving up the alcohol) is to steep 1 lb of flaked or rolled oats in it at 158 degrees for 20 to 60 minutes, with the grains, if using them.

Sorry, that's one way, but most would agree not the best way. Oats need to be mashed, not steeped. Unless you're doing a mini-mash, you're adding a ton of starch and starch-haze to the beer. If you want to add body, add carapils or maltodextrine.
 
I gotta say i totally agree with not needing to do AG to make great beer. I do AG most of the time, but gotta say lately i've been making more and more extract batches because it's easier. less fuss means brewing can work into my day instead of being my whole day, and i gotta say i like the tweaking advantage of AG brewing, but i enjoy my extract brews just as much
 
The only item I'd take exception to is #6. I've had so much trouble with unintended carmelization that I've become a simmerer instead of a boiler.

The rest of it is good common sense brewing, and I'm pleased to see somebody sum it all up here. Bound to set off a few of those who prefer to do it different, but it would save a lot of worry for beginning brewers to read this.

Mr. Gstiffler, why not microwave distilled or filtered water?
 
1) You CAN do secondary fermentation in a plastic primary bucket. If you're using fruit, then you MUST use a bucket. You DO NOT HAVE to use a glass secondary.

But what fun would that be? I use carboys for primary and secondary because the fermentation and conditioning fascinates me. It's like watching sea monkeys. :D
 
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