Off flavors are seriously bringing me down

The first two years of my brewing (extract) went without a hitch. Then something went wrong and I can't brew a batch without an off flavor to save my life. I have systematically replaced nearly all of my brewing equipment and have tried 3 different sanitizers. I have even switched to kegging just in case if the problem came from my bottling. I quit taking gravity samples to eliminate that step. I just don't get it and am quite discouraged. My hours have been cut at work and I have the joy of a 6 week furlough in my future so if I can't brew decent, I can't afford to brew at all anymore.

Visually my beer looks fine in the fermenters, never any crud floating on the surface. I can sometimes detect the off flavor even before carbonation. In some of the batches it almost appears as though there is a bit of surface tension when I swirl them around (after carbonation) but that may just be in my head.

I have replaced my primary fermenter (Ale Pail) with one that didn't have a spigot, replaced my hoses, airlocks. grain bags, even my spoon. The only things I've not replaced are my autosiphon, secondary glass carboy and bung, and my brew pot (Princess House stainless). I started with One Step, then Idophor, and now use Star San. I have used both tap water and bottled spring water.

I have a hard time placing a name to the flavor. Perhaps a slick, sickly metallic that lingers on the breath and back of the throat. Then I saw this thread and I started to wonder...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/star-san-bad-corny-102691/

Is it possible that my flavor is actually coming from the stainless in my brewpot? I always just wash it out with soap and water, nothing more. Once a year my wife makes peanut butter balls and oreo balls using this pot. Could that in any way have ruined the pot?

Sorry for the long thread...kinda bummed.

Anybody in central Florida care to taste some crap? j/k

What about water? Looks like you covered all the bases but that one.

ditto the above. check the chlorine content of your water, that could be it.

kevmoron said:

ditto the above. check the chlorine content of your water, that could be it.

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Sorry, I meant to cover that as well. I have gotten this flavor using both tap water and bottled spring water.

I'll add that to the above post.

What is your normal routine for pitching yeast?

If it's detectable in your fermenter, it's like a yeast stressing issue.

BierMuncher said:

What is your normal routine for pitching yeast?

If it's detectable in your fermenter, it's like a yeast stressing issue.

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Most of the time it is a dry yeast (Nottingham, Coopers, or Muntons) and usually hydrated in pre-boiled water 15 minutes prior to pitch. Once I used WLP001 pitched directly.

Ferment temps have varied from batch to batch...everywhere from 75 all the way down to the high 50's and that flavor is still there.

It isn't the stainless pot, so no worry there. Many of us use stainless.

I agree with BM above, make sure you aren't under pitching, fermenting too high or low or anything else fun like that. What kind of spring water did you try? I find that Arrowhead has that kind of taste, while crystal geyser is much cleaner tasting...just a thought.

EDIT: I also found that Coopers yeast wasn't appealing for me...

What about ingredients? Do you use one brand of extract for all of your brews?

Have you considered making a small batch of all grain beer (you can make 1-2 gallons of all grain without special equipment) to see if the flavor is still there?

You may also consider taking a couple of bottles to a homebrew shop or club meeting and asking for their feedback - maybe they can identify the off-flavor.

Matt Up North said:

It isn't the stainless pot, so no worry there. Many of us use stainless.

I agree with BM above, make sure you aren't under pitching, fermenting too high or low or anything else fun like that. What kind of spring water did you try? I find that Arrowhead has that kind of taste, while crystal geyser is much cleaner tasting...just a thought.

EDIT: I also found that Coopers yeast wasn't appealing for me...

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I typically favor Nottingham but some kits came with the others so that is what I used. I've used Winn Dixie and Publix brand water. I may have also used Great Value brand. Never used a "name" brand of water.

Is it possible to have an infection without any visible signs? If so I don't know where it could even be coming from. I don't think a surgeon could be more sterile than I've been. Looks like the general thinking is that I have a yeast issue. I'm just nervous to point at that just based on all of the types I've used...though only using one packet has always been my constant. Hmmm...

For what it's worth I've had bad batches from a simple wheat all the way up to a heavy nut brown and an RIS.

+1 on the chlorine in the water and +1 on yeast stressing (do you aerate?), those both contributed to off-flavors in my initial all-grain batches.

ArcaneXor said:

What about ingredients? Do you use one brand of extract for all of your brews?

Have you considered making a small batch of all grain beer (you can make 1-2 gallons of all grain without special equipment) to see if the flavor is still there?

You may also consider taking a couple of bottles to a homebrew shop or club meeting and asking for their feedback - maybe they can identify the off-flavor.

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My extract brands and dealers are always different so I can't point to any specific brand. I've gotten extracts from 3 different local shops, plus a few orders from Austin.

My most recent batch was designed as an uber cheap batch just to test for the flavor. It included 3.3lbs of a cheap LME that came in a box that I believe included rice solids (Northern something??), one lb Muntons DME, and one pound corn sugar. I didn't care how that batch came out as long as the off flavor wasn't there...which it was.

ReverbbqBrew said:

+1 on the chlorine in the water and +1 on yeast stressing (do you aerate?), those both contributed to off-flavors in my initial all-grain batches.

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Spring water doesn't have chlorine, right? I don't mechanically aerate. I siphon my 2-3gal of wort and actively pour in my top off water.

Should I try pitching the dry yeast without hydrating? That's how I used to do it and those batches came out fine.

Thanks to everyone for the help so far.

What are you using to chill the wort? What metals (if any) are involved? My wort chiller (copper) tends to discolor rapidly, so I scrub it with vinegar and rinse well before each use.

When you top off after cooling, are you still using bottled water or tap?
I chased after a funky flavor for a long time before I ended up buying some bottled water to make beer because I was seeing if it would work faster in the process....WWAALAAAAA! Since then, I made a water filter setup and dang good beers after that.
Hope you find the source.

Star San is sooo popular right now so it may be a coincidence but the people that have a bad taste seem to always use Star San. The say the beer has a metallic or medicinal taste.

Don't get me wrong, Star San is excellent but is it an overconcentration issue? Or not rinsing issue?

Forrest

david_42 said:

What are you using to chill the wort? What metals (if any) are involved? My wort chiller (copper) tends to discolor rapidly, so I scrub it with vinegar and rinse well before each use.

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I'm just doing 2-3 gallon boils so I am currently just doing ice baths in the sink.

I've got someone from a local brew club coming over on Sunday to evaluate. Hopefully he can get this sorted out for me. I literally couldn't sleep last night because I was so bothered by it.

You can easily rule out a yeast problem. Keep it simple. Get a pack of us-o5 dry yeast. You can simply pitch it right in to the carboy. No need to aerate, stir it up or anything. Just cut the pack and pour it in. Other than that, Id say make sure you are using the spring water in the boil, top off , and priming water.

MajorTom said:

You can easily rule out a yeast problem. Keep it simple. Get a pack of us-o5 dry yeast. You can simply pitch it right in to the carboy. No need to aerate, stir it up or anything. Just cut the pack and pour it in. Other than that, Id say make sure you are using the spring water in the boil, top off , and priming water.

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I'll try that on my next batch, possibly Sunday.

My other fear is that maybe I am just getting consistent infections (around 8 batches now) that just don't have visible signs. I think I may need to replace my autosiphon as that is the only major thing that could possibly harbor wild yeasts. This being the culprit occured to me last night while thinking about the current two batches on tap.

1. American Wheat. Two weeks in old primary bucket then right to keg. This was with spring water. Nottingham yeast. Idophor.

2. Ghetto recipe for testing. 1 week in a brand new primary, 2.5 weeks in glass carboy, then to keg. New airlock. This was tap water. Muntons yeast. Star San.

Both are "off" tasting. Not mild but nearly undrinkable. No visible signs of infection. Aside from my spoon and brewpot, my autosiphon and hose is the only thing these two recipes shared. The hose has only been used a few times but the siphon, while appearing clean, is nearing 3 years (~50 batches).

Maybe your auto-syphon?

fezzman said:

Is it possible that my flavor is actually coming from the stainless in my brewpot? I always just wash it out with soap and water, nothing more. Once a year my wife makes peanut butter balls and oreo balls using this pot. Could that in any way have ruined the pot?



j/k

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This sounds like the perfect justification for a new, larger brew pot! Give the wife a good scientifical type reason that her oreo balls screwed up your brew pot and VOILA! Happy Valentines Day.

I don't know that this is actually your problem, but soap and oil don't come near my brew pot.
I would replace your siphon and tubing for sure.
Keep us updated.

big supper said:

Maybe your auto-syphon?

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That's what I was going to suggest...if there's something down in the tube there, or growing in the bottom cap, you'd never be able to get it all out.

I read a very long thread on this site a while ago that went exactly like this one.

I don't remember the title so I can't point to it.

The upshot was that it was an infection. The infection was invasive and the guy kept replacing parts of his rig and by the time he got around to replacing everything the infection had spread to the new stuff.

He ended up replacing every soft thing at once. Tubes, siphon, ale pail, airlocks. Everything. That fixed the problem and he was back to producing good beer.

So you replaced the tubing and stuff without replacing the auto siphon? Now your siphon could have infected the new stuff. Maybe not, but if you replace the siphon now and not the other stuff and the problem is not corrected you don't know that this is not the case.

I recommend you replace the essentials, ferment in glass that soaked in hot bleach water for a while, do not secondary, use bottled water. In other words make a batch using only brand spanking new stuff that has never seen the inside of your house. If the flavor is still there then it could be "house flavor" and that will always reemerge.

God, I hope my problem isn't a "house" flavor. That has been a cause for concern in the back of my mind. When I brew on the stove, the only place I've ever brewed, condensation builds on the microwave/hood and creates drippies. I am forever whiping them down so that they don't drip into the brewpot. I found that turning on the exhaust fan greatly helps keep this problem at bay.

Assuming my siphon is the problem, why wouldn't Star San kill the nasties in everything else? I can understand that they may have a nook in the siphon and that they can easily spread to other equipment. However, wouldn't soaking everything else at least make it sterile for AFTER the siphon is replaced?

Someone will be by the house later today to taste three of my beers...poor fella. He's been brewing for many years longer than I and is active in our brewclub. I plan to walk him through all of my processes. I am sooo ready to brew good beer again. I'm sitting on a Black Cat clone that I am just too afraid to make. Grrrr

fezzman said:

Assuming my siphon is the problem, why wouldn't Star San kill the nasties in everything else? I can understand that they may have a nook in the siphon and that they can easily spread to other equipment. However, wouldn't soaking everything else at least make it sterile for AFTER the siphon is replaced?

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I know what you mean about a house flavor too. In my house a house flavor could not be a good thing because my fermenting takes place in my basement and this would not contribute a good flavor to my brew.

Those oven hoods can get nasty as all hell. If you have wort condensing and then falling back in thiat could put some flavor in the beer. Unlikely enough to be tasted but . . . You know, usually pieces of that hood are removable and dishwashable - including the filter. I would use a few Magic Eraser pads on the rest of it.

Here's the thing. Your total A1 top priority at this point is to create a brew that does not have the flavor. Kind of like a reverse scientific process. Change every variable you can and pray. (Rather than one variable and see.) Also eliminate as many variables as possible in the process to reduce the chances for introduction.

I recommend you replace the essentials, ferment in glass that soaked in hot bleach water for a while, do not secondary, use bottled water. In other words make a batch using only brand spanking new stuff that has never seen the inside of your house. If the flavor is still there then it could be "house flavor" and that will always reemerge.



I agree with what this!:rockin:

How fresh is the extract you are using. When I used to brew with extract I found that I was getting a similar metallic taste. I went to my brew shop and realized that the cans had dust on them ( a lot of dust). I never really gave much attention to it just because I was only thinking about going home and brewing. I then changed brew shops where they had a higher volume of clientele and all ingredients, including grain were much more fresh. Try a new shop or a reputable online dealer. Good luck, and trust me I've made some crap wheat myself.

fezzman said:

Assuming my siphon is the problem, why wouldn't Star San kill the nasties in everything else? I can understand that they may have a nook in the siphon and that they can easily spread to other equipment. However, wouldn't soaking everything else at least make it sterile for AFTER the siphon is replaced?

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Star san won't clean soil, it's a surface sanitizer. So if there's a clump of nasty in the tubing somewhere that's full of bacteria, the star san will only hit the outside...and then when you run your beer through, the clump may break up a bit and there's your infection.

Austinhomebrew said:

Star San is sooo popular right now so it may be a coincidence but the people that have a bad taste seem to always use Star San. The say the beer has a metallic or medicinal taste.

Don't get me wrong, Star San is excellent but is it an overconcentration issue? Or not rinsing issue?

Forrest

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+100% - This is my thought here. I have a few friends who make beer that tastes like metal. I watched them make sanitizer before and they don't measure the water or the amount of sanitizer they make up. I once saw their iodophor that looked like BMC. It was that yellow of a color.

I think it doesn't matter whether you use either iodophor or starsan its bad if you don't concentrate correctly.

Mine is always colorless. I never can detect an off taste in my beers.

You can also boil all of your water too to eliminate that as a factor.

Do you keg? If so when was the last time you cleaned out the beer lines and took a part the taps?

Several of my friends who keg have found that their beer lines where infecting their beer.

From NB;

BLC Beer Line Cleaner

BLC is a liquid cleaner designed for cleaning keg tubing, faucets and valves. Make a solution by mixing 1 oz. per gallon of warm water, and pump it into your beer lines. BLC needs 15 minutes of contact time to remove deposits, beer stone, etc. Rinse with clean water.

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This is from how to brew; How to Brew - By John Palmer - Common Off-Flavors

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Metallic
Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The protective (grayish) oxides of aluminum can be enhanced by heating the clean pot in a dry oven at 250°F for about 6 hours.[/FONT]

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Try reading threw Palmers to see if this jogs an idea as to the taste you detecting.

I wish you Good Luck!

Schlenkerla said:

You can also boil all of your water too to eliminate that as a factor.

Do you keg? If so when was the last time you cleaned out the beer lines and took a part the taps?

Several of my friends who keg have found that their beer lines where infecting their beer.

From NB;

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The two beers on tap are actually the first two beers I've ever had on tap...all new equipment. I flushed the lines with Star San prior to using. This off flavor was affecting previous batches that were bottled so it isn't in the keg procedure.

I'm pretty much now convinced that it is an infection, spreading from batch to batch. Again, there is nothing visible to show as much. However, the taste of one of the kegged batches is getting worse, tart and puckery. An older bottled batch has been in the fridge for a good 6 months because I never threw it out. Today I opened it up, off flavor was still there but the carbonation had increased despite being in the fridge. It didn't foam like crazy or anything but it was still over-carbed. That can be a sign of infection, right?

My next course of action is going to be replacing my siphon and hose. Then I will soak my new fermentor in a bleach solution and then sterilize. Then I am going to brew a batch using a burner outside (to eliminate kitchen concerns). Primary only...then keg. Speaking of, I will replace all keg seals in the event that the infection (wild yeast??) spread to those. Sound like a viable plan?

Have you ever purposely made and sour beers? Belgians or Berliner? Wondering if that could be a source.

Schlenkerla said:

Have you ever purposely made and sour beers? Belgians or Berliner? Wondering if that could be a source.

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Nopers. Maybe I should start. lol

Fezzman - Critically look at whatever is difficult to clean. Put extra effort at looking for debris that doesn't belong.

• Spigots
• Auto syphons
• Hoses
• Wine thief
• Turkey Baster+the bulb
• Oxygen/Aeration Stone
• Wort Chiller
• Carboy Caps
• Blow-Off Hose
• Seals on bucket lids remove large o-rings
• Airlocks
• Draw tubes in kegs
• Pin/Ball Lock Fittings

Make a list like this and systematically go through all of the items.

I'd use an old toothbrush or a gun barrel brush on these parts. Maybe boil some of these items (the non plastic parts). You might be able to soak them in a bleach water too (2oz bleach: 5 gal water). If you are wanting to be really aggressive you can go the route of ammonia or TSP soaks, but wash/rinse really, really good. I'd start with the bleach since I know it works on my carboys and it won't screw up my plastic parts.