Fat kid at a doughnut shop - which controller?

The question?
Which controller should I get, BT or BCS or Pi? Have any of you bought one and wished you had the other? During brew day are you wishing you had more or less? Which features on brew day seem to be the most important ones when considering the system? What features should I be considering that ended up making your decision?

Set up
I have 3 welded fitting keggle on 30 amp sys. I already have the elements, 5500w. I have both a 110 rims tube and welded in a set up for herms. Not sure which one i am going to use in the end or the logic to have both. 2 pumps currently thinking about going with a 3rd.

Back story.
I was going to build a Kal clone (sorry Kal looks like I'm going more automated), but then started to really look around at all the options for cool control panels. At first looked at the BCS and thought that would be my system. Looks like I could do everything I wanted. I wasn't into water levels and some of the more customizable features. Then like most of us, the thoughts on how cool it would be to have that kind of automated brew bling started creaping in. So then I started thinking about moving into the BrewTroller side and checking out how Black Heart did his set up. So I have read the 8 or so threads about the differences of the 2 systems and how they work on your opinions. Seems like the BCS guys are very outspoken over the BT guys and Pi is just sitting in the corner.
My dad is a electrical engineer and I know a ton about web interface, so woring and programing arent really issues.
I am excited about making a real kick ass visual for web access of the controller. I'm thinking about making it bootstrap so it will look amazing on any device and run like a raped ape. Maybe pulling the data logging into ruby... Anyway that is after this first step.

If you're sticking to the fat kid/donut shop simile, you need to buy all three and feel sick afterward.

If you are into the web interface side of things I would suggest the BrewTroller is not for you. The embedded microcontroller under the hood will probably not be powerful enough for what you want to do, and the firmware development seems to be lagging.

If you are rolling your own system, you might want to consider BeagleBone Black which has similar price and capabilities as the Pi but more I/O options.

Have you considered PLC control? These systems are just a microcontroller emulation of a PLC.

My biggest question would be your budget?

muhteeus said:

These systems are just a microcontroller emulation of a PLC.

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Hope you're hungry gutboy, because here come the man selling 10 foot high donuts.

I would like to keep the control unit under $400. All the other accoutrements can be expensive as they want. I have time on my side and some disposable budget to work with.

I will check out the other ones you guys suggested.

For that money you will have to DIY, but you probably wanted to anyway.

The Teensy-Pi thread should give you some ideas.

alien said:

For that money you will have to DIY, but you probably wanted to anyway.

The Teensy-Pi thread should give you some ideas.

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Thanks, I like all of them so far. Each day I keep thinking I'll decide and I haven't yet. I think the ultimate decision will be centered around programming functionality. The more "plug and play" aspects.

So I have a manual ball valve before my sparse arm right now. Are their ball valves that can be partially closed? I just thought about that piece of my set up.

ReuFroman said:

I would like to keep the control unit under $400. All the other accoutrements can be expensive as they want. I have time on my side and some disposable budget to work with.

I will check out the other ones you guys suggested.

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Yeah. DIY is the way to go.

My PLC control panel build is just under $2000, but will last a lifetime with parts that are essentially swappable.

muhteeus said:

Yeah. DIY is the way to go.

My PLC control panel build is just under $2000, but will last a lifetime with parts that are essentially swappable.

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Do you have images of your system? How was the interface to build? I'm building a panel right now that will work without a brain. I wanted to try a manual brew to make sure it's capable of a full manual brew day.

ReuFroman said:

I'm building a panel right now that will work without a brain. I wanted to try a manual brew to make sure it's capable of a full manual brew day.

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That's a sensible approach.

ReuFroman said:

Do you have images of your system? How was the interface to build? I'm building a panel right now that will work without a brain. I wanted to try a manual brew to make sure it's capable of a full manual brew day.

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Yes, I have a thread with autocad drawings in PDF form. The system is a WIP.

I'll admit, I have no idea what you mean by "without a brain" or "try a manual brew"

muhteeus said:

I'll admit, I have no idea what you mean by "without a brain" or "try a manual brew"

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Thanks for the pointing in the right direction.
"Without a brain" and "manual brew" means sans controller. I'm standing at the control panel flipping switches like a mad scientist. It probably looks like my normal brew day right now but more upright and less hose moving.

muhteeus said:

Have you considered PLC control? These systems are just a microcontroller emulation of a PLC.

My biggest question would be your budget?

Click to expand...

Well, really I don't have a budget. I have a little side job that pays well enough to let me afford some cool gear. Sometimes it takes me a pay period to buy the cool new "__________" and sometimes its a couple months. So really any price is a good price if it's worth it.

I haven't done the research, what am I looking at with the PLC control? Do they have a website with brew set up examples?

What about BeagleBone Black with this 4.3" touchscreen cape, about $100 for the lot? That's got to be worth a look. :rockin:

http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/43-lcd-cape-for-beaglebone-black-touch-display-p-1592.html

I've got a older working Allen Bradley SLC PLC unit and the programming cable I'd part with. I think it's 120vac inputs and relay outputs but I'd have to check it first.

ReuFroman said:

Well, really I don't have a budget. I have a little side job that pays well enough to let me afford some cool gear. Sometimes it takes me a pay period to buy the cool new "__________" and sometimes its a couple months. So really any price is a good price if it's worth it.

I haven't done the research, what am I looking at with the PLC control? Do they have a website with brew set up examples?

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Thats awesome. I have been buying my system piece by piece for the last month and have a LOT left to go.

I also read your other post and understand what you meant by a manual system now .

PLC isn't a specific product, it is a class of device. Programmable Logic Controllers, used for industrial automation. They use a hardware level language called Ladder Logic, which is essentially relay logic. I think one of the devices you mentioned (Brewtroller or something) uses the same type of setup to program. Now as far as interface, you have options... HMI or SCADA which is essentially some touchscreen or keypad (or webservice if you have $$$$$) that allows an operator to talk to the PLC program.

I used a Koyo CLICK PLC and C-More HMI from automationdirect.com. The PLC and accessories were roughly $202 and the HMI will run $324. Just an example. There are all-in-one units that start at $550, there is a device called T-BOX that has wifi and will use the webservice that you can grab for $700ish.

Honestly, I think that a PLC is easier to use and program, but I am an EE that works in the Controls Industry... so I am biased haha.

Anyway, good luck! I am going to keep an eye on this thread, eager to see how projects turn out while I am working on mine.

I'll start looking at the Plc. It's been a whole new world that I stepped into with automated brewing.

My biggest question is how much tinker will I want to put myself through for the brewery. Maybe it's the other way around, how much can my brewery stand me tinkering with it?

Questions: How automated do you really want to get? What are your goals with automation? What does your current brewday look like, and what do you really want to replace with automation.

I'm running a BCS-460 on E-HERMS rig. I have automated temp and pump control, but no level sensors or solenoid vales (not enough 5V dOUts). However, even with this setup I find that brewday can be almost boring. The fact that I can literally walk away from the rig during strike water preheat, a 75 min mash schedule (with recirc), and 30 min mashout, and know everything will be fine, has greatly changed how I view my brew day. I've actually come to the conclusion that I don't want any additional automation (or hard-piping), because I know I'd miss being able to change hose configurations, feather valves, prime pumps, mash-in, add hops, etc. At some point you're just not brewing anymore - your machine is. Automation sounds (and is) pretty cool conceptually, but if you really like the hands-on work of brewing as I do, you might find that you're building parts of a machine that you might never really use. Just my two cents.

Good luck!
P

PLOVE said:

Questions: How automated do you really want to get? What are your goals with automation? What does your current brewday look like, and what do you really want to replace with automation.

I'm running a BCS-460 on E-HERMS rig. I have automated temp and pump control, but no level sensors or solenoid vales (not enough 5V dOUts). However, even with this setup I find that brewday can be almost boring. The fact that I can literally walk away from the rig during strike water preheat, a 75 min mash schedule (with recirc), and 30 min mashout, and know everything will be fine, has greatly changed how I view my brew day. I've actually come to the conclusion that I don't want any additional automation (or hard-piping), because I know I'd miss being able to change hose configurations, feather valves, prime pumps, mash-in, add hops, etc. At some point you're just not brewing anymore - your machine is. Automation sounds (and is) pretty cool conceptually, but if you really like the hands-on work of brewing as I do, you might find that you're building parts of a machine that you might never really use. Just my two cents.

Good luck!
P

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Well said.... Too much automation takes away from the fun (IMO). Automation in itself is a hobby. For the big brewery's making thousands of barrels at a time automation is great but it just wouldn't work for me. Automating temperature control is about as far as I'm willing to go.

atoughram said:

Well said.... Too much automation takes away from the fun (IMO). Automation in itself is a hobby. For the big brewery's making thousands of barrels at a time automation is great but it just wouldn't work for me. Automating temperature control is about as far as I'm willing to go.

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True story. Brewing buddy wants to automate the valves... once we do this it is almost a one touch... not cool. The current setup I am shooting for will automatically adjust setpoints and control temps based on steps. The steps are started and stopped by a person after ensuring that water level, hoses, ingredients are all set. The whole reason I want to do this is so we can be cleaning or readying a second-third batch while brewing the first.

muhteeus said:

True story. Brewing buddy wants to automate the valves... once we do this it is almost a one touch... not cool. The current setup I am shooting for will automatically adjust setpoints and control temps based on steps. The steps are started and stopped by a person after ensuring that water level, hoses, ingredients are all set. The whole reason I want to do this is so we can be cleaning or readying a second-third batch while brewing the first.

Click to expand...

Pretty much how my system operates. Based on original design constraints 2 pumps can either be toggled manually, or run automatically via the BCS. Seemed like a neat feature, but to be honest, I almost never brew this way. I've found in practice that flipping a manual switch, and making sure the pump has primed correctly is actually easier then messing with automation. Live and learn. The one really nice thing that I have found with automation is that it makes it easy and brainless to prepare in advance for a "next batch".

Personally, I love brewday

Wow that is a great point of too much automation. I keep thinking about that. My mentor says the same thing. Although when I brewed as a assistant brewer at a big brewery the nice part of the day was no fiddling with hoses and just thinking about and actually brewing. I think I want (granted I could change my mind) is the ability to stop switching hoses and just focus on what is really happening. I would really like to start step mashes, I know most of the modern malts don't need it.

I haven't thought about putting the pump after the chiller.

----- PRIMING ------
I added an air valve to my pumps so the priming goes a lot easier. That was the best 10 bucks I have spent on the system for a while.

ReuFroman said:

Wow that is a great point of too much automation. I keep thinking about that. My mentor says the same thing. Although when I brewed as a assistant brewer at a big brewery the nice part of the day was no fiddling with hoses and just thinking about and actually brewing. I think I want (granted I could change my mind) is the ability to stop switching hoses and just focus on what is really happening. I would really like to start step mashes, I know most of the modern malts don't need it.

I haven't thought about putting the pump after the chiller.

----- PRIMING ------
I added an air valve to my pumps so the priming goes a lot easier. That was the best 10 bucks I have spent on the system for a while.

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Air valve? We use pumps everywhere at work, and I admit that I am not too keen on priming.

The air valve I am talking about is one you use on rad or hydronic systems

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

works great to get the air out fast and get the pump working. I'll see if I have a pic of it somewhere. I pulled my set a part for the pending changes.

So just a mechanical relief valve that purges air for liquid? That's smart!

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/463/=grm7g2

These are nice too.

PLOVE said:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/463/=grm7g2

These are nice too.

View attachment 147717

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Oh that's cool

Quick question regarding automation. If i would want to fully automate the system... Which one is better.. Brewtroller or BCS? Also, what about if you want control from a living room or such?
I keep seeing different opinions between the two!!!

phlipot89 said:

Quick question regarding automation. If i would want to fully automate the system... Which one is better.. Brewtroller or BCS? Also, what about if you want control from a living room or such? I keep seeing different opinions between the two!!!

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Both can handle automation from a remote source. As to which one is better really relies on preference of options. I like both of the controllers. If your going to go full auto then BT is the best with it's ability to sense filling as more of a standard option.

I'm glad you have brought up full auto. I keep thinking about hop additions via a pulse motor. Setting up an auger to drop the additions. I'm pretty sure it won't happen but has anyone seen this sort of contraption.

Doesn't dogfish head have this sort of thing for their 90 minute IPA?

ReuFroman said:

I keep thinking about hop additions via a pulse motor. Setting up an auger to drop the additions. I'm pretty sure it won't happen but has anyone seen this sort of contraption.

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Pellet stoves. Same size pellet as hops.

Epimetheus said:

Pellet stoves. Same size pellet as hops.

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Brilliant.

ReuFroman said:

I keep thinking about hop additions via a pulse motor. Setting up an auger to drop the additions. I'm pretty sure it won't happen but has anyone seen this sort of contraption.

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I built a rotary hop dispenser, controlled by the PLC.
Inside the base is a 24 VDC gear motor and on top the position sensor.
Depending on the boil schedule 60 min., 90 min. or 120 min. the PLC controls the
drop at the right time.
Cheers,
ClaudiusB

ClaudiusB said:

I built a rotary hop dispenser, controlled by the PLC.
Inside the base is a 24 VDC gear motor and on top the position sensor.
Depending on the boil schedule 60 min., 90 min. or 120 min. the PLC controls the
drop at the right time.
Cheers,
ClaudiusB

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I finally understand why people say stuff like "Wow, that looks expensive and unnecessary."

It's because they're f*@#ing jealous. :rockin:

I couldn't agree more.

I consistently look to spend money on brewing gear. Rest assured I will rival microbreweries by the time I kick the bucket.

The one who has the most friends with toys when he dies wins. Why? Because you got to play with their stuff!

All these things you guys say--basically the same things that I'm telling myself in my head:

-Well, I've decided to build a real 3 vessel brew system. Time to think about controlling it!
-Hmmm, yes, Kal's brewery system is simple and effective. Sexy! I'm totally doing it.
-Oooooh, but this BCS build looks so shiny! I could be so precise with the mash!
-But now it's tooooo automated! Don't you want to feel like you're brewing?
-What's this BrewTroller thing? Level control!? Holy crap!
-BCS vs BT... BCS vs BT... BCS vs BT...
-Dammit man, they're overly expensive and complicated! Just go with simple PID!
-But soooo shiny!

<gets distracted by fermenter project>

-So yeah, I really need to make a decision on what controller I'm gonna use, better go read HBT...Oh, a new BCS build, let's read that!


.....and so it goes, round and round, in my head. I have analysis paralysis!

I have decided to do BT someday.. I will probably start with a pid for a single vessel as i am building my massive full auto system.. I like shiny things that run themselves...

Ed - that's exactly right. Laughed a bit also. Shiny is nice.

Ph - that's how I approached the project also.

I still keep going back and forth. Who knows one day I may have all 3 set up on 2 different sets. It's just money right?