Simple Electric Build....From the Pros

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kpr121 said:
Thanks P-J. Would the 4 inch probe give more accurate readings? I went ahead and ordered two last night thinking I would need both (damn drunken online purchases), but now that makes sense with the BK not needing it . Unless I want to set the temp at 208 and add some sort of alarm, but I dont think that will be necessary the way I usually brew.

So I guess I will be putting a 4 inch temp probe in the classified section, unless anyone here wants it?
Click to expand...

im collecting parts for my build now... i may need that. i'd imagine that would work fine in my mash tun or hlt.
 
P-J said:
That's true. However with a single PID setup you only need a single temp probe. There is no need for a second probe.
Click to expand...

So I would need to move it (one single RTD) from my HLT to the BK once I wanted to begin the boil?
Edit: Or is it only necessary to have one plugged in, and I can leave it in the HLT?



bagpiperjosh said:
That's true. However with a single PID setup you only need a single temp probe. There is no need for a second probe.
Click to expand...

I will let you know!
 
I believe you simply need to have one plugged in. If you're using the PID in manual mode you don't care about the temp probe but the PID still wants it connected.
 
kpr121 said:
So I would need to move it (one single RTD) from my HLT to the BK once I wanted to begin the boil?
Edit: Or is it only necessary to have one plugged in, and I can leave it in the HLT?
---
I will let you know!
Click to expand...
You would leave it in the HLT. The PID only needs to have a probe connected to it for it to function. When you go to boil mode, you would be setting the PID to manual mode and regulating the element power in that mode.

Keep in mind that water at a simmer boil is 212°F and a raging boil is at 212°F.
In other words, you cannot control the boil rate using a temp probe. It just needs to be connected for the PID to function.
 
Awesome thanks for the quick responses. Sorry if this thread was sidetracked a little bit. Bagpiperjosh PM me about the temp probe if you would like. Seems like we live fairly close, may make the transaction a bit cheaper.
 
Is it possible to go strait from the spa panel to an element? I don't have the cash to get a PID as of right now. I understand that to control it I would have to unplug it to control the temp. I have a 4 prong dryer outlet. And a Camco folded back element.
 
JoshAZ said:
Is it possible to go strait from the spa panel to an element? I don't have the cash to get a PID as of right now. I understand that to control it I would have to unplug it to control the temp. I have a 4 prong dryer outlet. And a Camco folded back element.
Click to expand...

Possible? Yes. Foolish and/or dangerous? Also yes.

Plugs wear out. They're not designed to have things repeatedly inserted and removed over and over. I replaced enough 110 outlets in my last house where the contacts were so worn that looking at a plug funny could make it fall out. Plus, extra strain on the cord could damage the conductors.

If you don't have cash for the PID, at least get a proper switch rated for 240v/30a.
 
That makes sense thanks bdjohns1, I will just have to find the $ for the right equipment the first time to save the $ in the long run.
 
P-J in the diagram on page 1 you recommend switch 1 to be the toggle Switch, Maintained, DPDT, 25/15A Part# 2TPF8. I see that it is rated for 15A at 240V. If I was running a 4500W element that would pull about 18.8A correct? So would this not be the correct switch to use as it is only rated for 15A?
 
You need to go by the information that the switch has stamped on it's side by the manufacturer not by what someone tells you on the internet. If it says it's good for 15 amps at 240 volts then that's what it's good for.
 
ekjohns said:
P-J in the diagram on page 1 you recommend switch 1 to be the toggle Switch, Maintained, DPDT, 25/15A Part# 2TPF8. I see that it is rated for 15A at 240V. If I was running a 4500W element that would pull about 18.8A correct? So would this not be the correct switch to use as it is only rated for 15A?
Click to expand...
IMHO, the switch is rated based on the voltage present across the switch contacts when the contacts are made or broken. In the particular application, both phases of the 240V are made or broke at the same instant so the voltage presented across the contacts is indeed 120V not 240V.

Another plus is that the load is a resistive load not an inductive load. Most of the time when a switch is derated for higher voltage applications, it is to accommodate inductive loads.

Hope this helps you.

P-J
 
P-J said:
Hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

Actually I'm confused about it, but knowing your record for safety I will take you at your word:)

Edit. I reread it again and think I understand. I just don't get why they would rate it for when the load is broken or applied as opposed to constant operation
Thanks again
 
Exceeding the manufacturer's rating of a piece of equipment is never a good idea no matter where that idea comes from.
 
P-J said:
What ever you say. Pick a switch and go with it.
Click to expand...

Be consistent, chief. You can't make the "you bet your life" statements on some design choices and blow off others...
 
bdjohns1 said:
Be consistent, chief. You can't make the "you bet your life" statements on some design choices and blow off others...
Click to expand...

I'm sure he's just done explaning why this switch within it's limits for this build. I've seen him explain it 2-3 time and I follow the logic and am using it in my build. Use the search for "part# 2TPF8" I'm sure you (or anyone else) who would like his full run down will find it. Or ask for the data sheet from Grangers, that too will show this is within the limits.
 
How is it within the limits of the switch when the limits are clearly stated by the manufacturer to be less than the amp draw of the element?
 
yjfun said:
How is it within the limits of the switch when the limits are clearly stated by the manufacturer to be less than the amp draw of the element?
Click to expand...
You don't like my reasoning?
Oh well..! I have no need to explain a damn thing to you.

I'll tell you what. From now on I'll let you accomodate the members on this forum. You design and draw all of the custom drawing requests from now on. This way everything will be correct according to your view of all "The Rules".

I'm done...

Oh... And good luck. I'll be referring drawing requests to you.! I hope you have the time to do 'em. I just finished a special custom drawing about an hour ago. (It only took me 6 hours.)
 
Wow, Man up a bit and grow some thicker skin. You certainly don't have to explain yourself to anyone you don't want to, you also don't need to throw a "tantrum" on the internet and make yourself look like a little child. RDWHAHB or something.
 
Drama like this is precisely why I quit participating in electronic build discussions unless specifically about my designs. Too many armchair "experts" and too many "OMG it's eeeeelectriciiiiity I'mmma gonna dieeee" types. Bad combo.
 
wyzazz said:
Wow, Man up a bit and grow some thicker skin. You certainly don't have to explain yourself to anyone you don't want to, you also don't need to throw a "tantrum" on the internet and make yourself look like a little child. RDWHAHB or something.
Click to expand...

No kidding. I got my first tantrum after asking around for one of the older drawings. In my OP, I specifically said I didn't want a new drawing made. I got a new drawing anyway, and after I indicated that based on one of his concerns I would be simplifying my design a little, he threw a fit over "wasting 2 hours". He must have workflow issues if the revisions he made took 2 hours.

I've lost count of the number of times he's said "I'm done."

So, here's my Easter wish.

Stop being a drama queen. The contributions you've made to this forum are invaluable, P-J. Most of us owe at least a significant portion of our brewery designs to you. I learned a hell of a lot, personally. However, your design choices aren't the end of the discussion. They're the beginning. Even if you were God's gift to electric brewing, that doesn't give you the right to act like a bratty little kid when someone questions you. Ideas grow when they're debated and discussed.

If you're going to throw a tantrum every time someone challenges you on something, you need to do one of two things:

1) RDWHAHB like wyzazz said and figure out a more tactful way to participate in the discussion.
2) Leave us your existing drawings under a Creative Commons license and ride off into the sunset.
 
P-J it's nothing personal this is a forum for questions and answers on things related to electric homebrewing not an attack on you.

Personally I'm very glad that you have taken the time to help so many people with your schematics and been such a proponent of safety when brewing with electricity but your word is not law. It's just a suggestion like everyone else's and you don't need to throw such a fit when someone questions it.

I guess my biggest questions would be that since you have been so forward in your quest to make us all safer when using electricity in our brewery's, why would you continue to recommend using a part that has had so many questions brought up about it?

Why wouldn't you even attempt to see the concerns that people have brought to light and just modified your drawings to accommodate?

Wouldn't using a slightly higher rated switch accomplish keeping people safe, happy, and still very grateful for your help?
 
Yup. That would be A-Ok. Have you tried to find such a switch for a contactor-less small controller? I have many times.

Oh, And I do see the concerns and have openly explained the reasoning for the choices that I make.

Find an appropriate switch & I'll use it in the drawings.

yjfun said:
P-J it's nothing personal this is a forum for questions and answers on things related to electric homebrewing not an attack on you.

Personally I'm very glad that you have taken the time to help so many people with your schematics and been such a proponent of safety when brewing with electricity but your word is not law. It's just a suggestion like everyone else's and you don't need to throw such a fit when someone questions it.

I guess my biggest questions would be that since you have been so forward in your quest to make us all safer when using electricity in our brewery's, why would you continue to recommend using a part that has had so many questions brought up about it?

Why wouldn't you even attempt to see the concerns that people have brought to light and just modified your drawings to accommodate?

Wouldn't using a slightly higher rated switch accomplish keeping people safe, happy, and still very grateful for your help?
Click to expand...
 
Disclaimers (1) I am by no means an electrical expert & (2) I've been building out a 120v 5 gallon system but also working on 240v 50A setup. So I'm just kind of curious to figure stuff out before I order all the parts. This thread probably won't even matter to me since I figure I'll be using contactors anyway (for 240V).

Anyway - what about this switch: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/NKK-Toggle-Switch-2TPE4

Seems like it's rated lower for 120v (20A vs. 25A) but rated higher for 240v (20A vs. 15A). It's like $3 more.

So - what is the tradeoff there? Seems like 20A isn't 120% over for a 4500W element @ 240V but it's a bit over. Could be I'm missing something obvious about the part (going back to those disclaimers).
 
I know it is not "cool" looking but what about a simple 30A light switch from Home Depot? It is 30A rated at 240V. It is a DPST but for people running only 1 element it should work right?
 
jdowling that is the switch I was looking for.

Thank you.

NKK also makes a 25 amp version.
 

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