2nd AG brew questions

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Patirck

Patirck

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I made my second all grain batch (Patrick's Powerful Pomegranate Saison) and I have a few questions:


Sparge technique - I viewed youtube video recommended on the forum and he sparged by pouring 170 degree water in the mashed grains, mixing them up a bit, then letting them rest for 10 minutes. He then drained into the boiling pot. This is what I did both the first time and the second. After a bit more reading, it seems that other people gently pour the sparge water over the grain bed using a strainer or other device so they don't disturb the grain bed, once the water level is a few inches over the grain bed, they start draining the wort slowly so the water level stays a few inches over the grain bed for as long as possible. I am sure there are many ways of doing this, are these just two of the techniques available or did I do it wrong somehow?

Vorlauf/Filtering - I think next time I will drain through a cheesecloth so I don't have to worry about chunks of stuff getting in the wort. I did the vorlauf procedure this time and as I start the boil and stirred the pot, I notice lots of chunks of stuff. Anything wrong with using cheesecloth like this?

Efficiency - I did not measure the gravity pre boil - is there any way to measure efficiency? I measured after the boil and it came out to 1.064. The grain bill is:

8 lbs Pilsner 2 row Belgian
2 lbs Vienna Malt
1.5 lbs Caravienne
1 lbs Carapils
.5 lbs Acid Malt



Boil off - The recipe called for pre boil volume of 7 gallons boiling down to 5 gallons - I thought 7 was way too much so I started with 5.75. I ended up with 4.1 after the boil. I know I can just add water but I decided against it since I plan on adding about 1.5 gallons of pomegranate juice after fermentation stops. I am planning on pouring this in the primary after about 5 days of fermenting - should I rack this in a different bucket?
 
Patirck said:
Sparge technique - I viewed youtube video recommended on the forum and he sparged by pouring 170 degree water in the mashed grains, mixing them up a bit, then letting them rest for 10 minutes. He then drained into the boiling pot. This is what I did both the first time and the second. After a bit more reading, it seems that other people gently pour the sparge water over the grain bed using a strainer or other device so they don't disturb the grain bed, once the water level is a few inches over the grain bed, they start draining the wort slowly so the water level stays a few inches over the grain bed for as long as possible. I am sure there are many ways of doing this, are these just two of the techniques available or did I do it wrong somehow?
Click to expand...

Yes, those are two of the options. What you did is batch-sparging (all the AG brewers I know use this method). The slow flowing one is called fly-sparging. There are other options, too.

Patirck said:
Vorlauf/Filtering - I think next time I will drain through a cheesecloth so I don't have to worry about chunks of stuff getting in the wort. I did the vorlauf procedure this time and as I start the boil and stirred the pot, I notice lots of chunks of stuff. Anything wrong with using cheesecloth like this?
Click to expand...
No, you can filter it if you want. Instead of vorlaufing, I used to run it through a very fine mesh stainless steel screen. That catches the big pieces of grain.

Patirck said:
Efficiency - I did not measure the gravity pre boil - is there any way to measure efficiency? I measured after the boil and it came out to 1.064. The grain bill is:

8 lbs Pilsner 2 row Belgian
2 lbs Vienna Malt
1.5 lbs Caravienne
1 lbs Carapils
.5 lbs Acid Malt


Boil off - The recipe called for pre boil volume of 7 gallons boiling down to 5 gallons - I thought 7 was way too much so I started with 5.75. I ended up with 4.1 after the boil. I know I can just add water but I decided against it since I plan on adding about 1.5 gallons of pomegranate juice after fermentation stops.
Click to expand...

With that grain bill, 4.1 gallons post boil, and a gravity of 1.064, I am calculating that you got an efficiency of only 58%, which is pretty low.

Patirck said:
I am planning on pouring this in the primary after about 5 days of fermenting - should I rack this in a different bucket?
Click to expand...

No comment here. I don't know if it matters whether you add juice to it in the primary or whether you should rack it first.
 
Walker said:
With that grain bill, 4.1 gallons post boil, and a gravity of 1.064, I am calculating that you got an efficiency of only 58%, which is pretty low.
Click to expand...

Any ideas on why I only got 58% this time? Last time, I did pretty much the same thing and got 73%. The main difference this time is that I went 70 minute instead of 75 and it was a different grain bill. The first was a different recipe and had specific mash instructions - this one I sort of made up. There were no mash instructions with the recipe I butchered.
 
There is a lot of thing that can influence efficiency. Mashing at a wrong temperature, sparging at the wrong temperature or without enough water (I fly-sparge by the way), not crushing the grains enough, etc.

At what temperature did you mash?
 
I used a strike temp of 164 and a sparge temp of 170. It was 13 pounds of grains that were at 78 before I started.

I also started with 3.6 gallons for the mash and got out 2.75 gallons, I then sparged with three gallons and got out three for a total fo 5.75.
 
You're efficiency is so low because your final volume was almost a whole gallon low. Brewhouse efficiency, which I'm assuming is what Walker posted, is based on OG and intended volume. If you had hit your 5 gallon mark and also had the preboil correct, you would have hit intended efficiency.

You also said you didn't do the whole 7 gallons because you thought it was too much, this caused your efficiency to start low.
 
Is there a guideline for how much water to sparge - how much pre boil volume to create in order to get the efficiency around 75%? I know about the 1.25 quarts per pound of grain for mash but after that how much do you use?
 
i personally use a total of 3 quarts of water per pound of grain when I brew.

1.5 qt/lb for the mash, and another 1.5 qt/lb for the sparge.

My efficiency floats around 75%.
 
forgot to add....

my rule of thumb can leave me with adjustments needing to be made depending on the recipe.

If it is a smaller grain bill, I will have to add some top-off water to the kettle so that I have a proper pre-boil volume.

If it is a large grain bill, I might have to boil for longer than 60 minutes.
 
Thanks for the tip - I think I get it now. Should I plan on a certain amount of preboil water for 5 gallons batches? I thought 7 gallons was too much but it seems that I should have had at least 6.75 or so in this last batch.
 
How much sparge water you used should be based on how much wort you need to boil based on how much beer you are trying to make. If you want 5 gal, then you typically want to ferment 5.5 gal. You need to know how much you are losing to boil off and trub. If you got 2.75 gal out of your mash you would need to make up the difference of 7 gal minus 2.75 gal = 4.25 gal of sparge water. Assuming that you are losing 1.5 gal to trub and boil off. That would put you with 5.5 gal going in to the primary.

I would rack the beer to a secondary before adding the pomegranate, FWIW.
 
Patirck said:
Thanks for the tip - I think I get it now. Should I plan on a certain amount of preboil water for 5 gallons batches? I thought 7 gallons was too much but it seems that I should have had at least 6.75 or so in this last batch.
Click to expand...

This depends on how much your system boils off.

When I used propane, I boiled off about 6 quarts per hour. So, if I wanted 5 gallons in the kettle at the end of the boil, I needed at least 6.5 gallons at the start.
 
Jason_Merritt said:
How much sparge water you used should be based on how much wort you need to boil based on how much beer you are trying to make. If you want 5 gal, then you typically want to ferment 5.5 gal. You need to know how much you are losing to boil off and trub. If you got 2.75 gal out of your mash you would need to make up the difference of 7 gal minus 2.75 gal = 4.25 gal of sparge water. Assuming that you are losing 1.5 gal to trub and boil off. That would put you with 5.5 gal going in to the primary.

I would rack the beer to a secondary before adding the pomegranate, FWIW.
Click to expand...


You also have to be mindful of over- or under-sparging.

If you are making a low strength english bitter or something with a small grain bill, sparging the hell out of it until you get a particular volume in the kettle could lead to problems.

Better to sparge it "the right amount" and then top off with water in the kettle in that case.

Likewise, with a large grain bill, sparging "the right amount" could leave you with a heck of a lot more wort than will boil off in an hour. In that case you will need to boil longer.



Example: my IPA has about 15 lbs of grain. If I mash with 1.5qt/lb and then sparge with 1.5 qt/lb, I will end up with almost 8.75 gallons in the kettle pre-boil. That is going to take over close to 2 hours to get down to 5.5 at the end.

If, instead, I stopped sparging when I had 7 gallons in the kettle, I would have sparged very little and left a LOT of sugar behind. Poor efficiency would have been the end result.
 
Walker said:
You also have to be mindful of over- or under-sparging.

Example: my IPA has about 15 lbs of grain. If I mash with 1.5qt/lb and then sparge with 1.5 qt/lb, I will end up with almost 8.75 gallons in the kettle pre-boil. That is going to take over close to 2 hours to get down to 5.5 at the end.

If, instead, I stopped sparging when I had 7 gallons in the kettle, I would have sparged very little and left a LOT of sugar behind. Poor efficiency would have been the end result.
Click to expand...

Very good point. I am doing my first AG on Sunday, but for the last month and half I have read everything I can get my hands on. So, what do you do in a situation like this? I would hate to drop my efficiency that much or boil for 2 hours!
 
Jason_Merritt said:
Very good point. I am doing my first AG on Sunday, but for the last month and half I have read everything I can get my hands on. So, what do you do in a situation like this? I would hate to drop my efficiency that much or boil for 2 hours!
Click to expand...

Well, you have to do one of the two. If you sparge to get an hours worth of boiling in the above case, you might have to hit the wort with some DME to get it to the gravity you want.

I have a big sack of DME in the freezer that I use to make starters. A couple of times I have used it to bump the gravity if it was too low.
 
FYI: all of the info I am dumping in this thread is based on my person brewery and methods, obviously.

As I mentioned, I use 3 quarts of water per pound of grain in total when I brew. Each pound of grain absorbs about 0.6 quarts, so I end up with (roughly)

3 - 0.6 = 2.4 quarts

in my kettle per pound of grain.

So, a 5 gallon batch with a small grain bill of 8 lbs gives me a little less than 5 gallons pre-boil. I need to top off with water to have 5.5 gallons at the end of the boil.

Likewise, a 5 gallon batch with a large grain bill of 15 lbs gives me about 9 gallons of pre-boil volume. I need to boil the hell out of it to get it down to 5.5 gallons.

Most of my batches are in the 10-12 pound range for grain bills, which gives me 6 - 7 gallons of runnings. So, I rarely have to make adjustments with top-off water or crazy long boils when I stay in this range. It's only when I make a session beer or a monster beer that I have to mess with things.
 
Thanks Walker. I'm trying to keep my first AG relatively simple. I came up with a nice Kolsch recipe and, like I said, have been doing nothing but reading on the different processes, so I think I'm good. Either way, I'm gonna make beer. And chances are, it will be drinkable. AND I will be drinking a considerable amount of homebrew as I do it, so it will be a gret day! ha :mug:
 
Have you tried any software? Beersmith is a free trial for a month. It takes a little time to get started with but I found the temp and volume calculations to be right on for my first AG batches.
 
I downloaded Brew Target a couple of months ago. It's not the greatest but it's pretty easy to use and it's free. It's helped me dial in the specifics, i.e. OG, FG, IBU, Color, and even styles. I see myself upgrading to Beersmith eventually, but I hate to start using the free trial and then not have the cash to buy it and then lose all of the good info I had in it.
 
I have only used Beersmith. IMO, well worth the $20. Does Brew Target not calculate volumes? That would seem a pretty important thing to leave out.

I am sure you will do fine with Walkers rule of thumb though. It is good to have that knowledge also. I would probably be lost if I couldn't work out a recipe in Beersmith.
 
Brew Target has volumes. The calulations can be strange though and it may be due me entering some info incorrectly. It keeps giving me tsp and cups! hahaha I think I've got mine figured out though. I'm going with 1.25 qt/lb for mash and then the difference between my first running and full boil for two batch sparges. I only have an 8 lb grain bill so I'm not worried about over or under sparging. Once I do a few batches I hope to dial into a good system.
 
Jason_Merritt said:
Brew Target has volumes. The calulations can be strange though and it may be due me entering some info incorrectly. It keeps giving me tsp and cups! hahaha I think I've got mine figured out though. I'm going with 1.25 qt/lb for mash and then the difference between my first running and full boil for two batch sparges. I only have an 8 lb grain bill so I'm not worried about over or under sparging. Once I do a few batches I hope to dial into a good system.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are on the right track. You will get it dialed in. I'm still tweaking after 8 months of all grain but the beers are turning out great.

Good luck with the Brew:mug:
 
Don't be sorry - I learned a lot from this. I must say that as a total newbie to home brewing, this site and the people on it have been great!
 
I found that it helped me immensely to understand everything my making a spreadsheet to do all the calculations. A few measurements on my equipment (dead space, heat lost to unheated tun, etc) and I was able to put it all together.

I use ProMash for recipe formulation, but just for the gravity and IBU part of the thing. My spreadsheet does all the water volume and temperature calculations for me.
 
Walker said:
I use ProMash for recipe formulation, but just for the gravity and IBU part of the thing. My spreadsheet does all the water volume and temperature calculations for me.
Click to expand...

I would like to get my hands on that spreadsheet :D

And Patrick, as a still relative noob myself, you're right, this website, and the people on it, is better than most books or instructional videos you might find. I still say read Palmer and Pappazian though. :mug:
 

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