angry at WLP500

This yeast frankly is a real pain in the booty. For 2 beers now (my Grand Reserve clone and a Mad Elf clone) The yeast starts hard for about 3 days then dies around 1/3 of my gravity drop. I am able to get things rolling again by stirring every other day. But I hate to be opening my fermenters to stir that often.

I had originally thought since my Grand Reserve was 1.095 SG that I hadn't pitched enough yeast or possible oxygenated enough (only using a siphon sprayer)

This time the Elf is .081 SG, I bought an oxygenating bottle/stone kit and pitched on the cake from the other. Same deal. Starts hard and dies in 3 days at 1/3 gravity. Temps stable around 70-72.

I don't know if it's something I'm doing or if it's just this yeast. I like the flavor profile, but I'd be up for other suggestions since I don't want to put up with this crap.

-J

What temps are you at?

I know that Jamil Z. recommends that, when using any of the Belgian yeast blends, to pitch at like 64 and then ramp it up to 70 over the course of a week, and then keep it at 70 for another week or so.

Belgian yeasts need a little extra loving, and the flavors they produce are desirable. The reason that you dont start at 70 is because more esters are created during the initial growth phase. so you start low, let the yeast do a lot of work and growth, and then slowly bring it up to keep all of the yeasts active and happy.

What kind of starter are you making?

Man, I've used this yeast 3 times now and it's never gone less than 80% apparent attenuation. With Evan!, I'm curious to know how big your starters are.

Temps stable 70-72, The first starter was about 1/2 pint for 11 gal of 1.091 wort. A little low, but it did take right off. Second batch was pitched on the first batches yeast, a good solid, dense 1 quart of yeast.

That first starter is tiny for that beer. Like tiny, tiny. What are your mash temps? How long are you mashing? How much simple sugar are you adding to the grainbill?

If nothing's wrong with the yeast, I'd suggest you're mashing too hot. There's no other reason I can think of for healthy, oxygenated Trappist yeast to attenuate so poorly.

I have no experience with WLP500, but I have used cultured chimay yeast numurous times...and it can be touchy....here is what I found out

#1 make a BIG starter

#2 pitch cool and control the temp for the first 2-3 days

#3 ramp that baby up, I actually like to get close to 80 degrees at the end of fermentation

Personally, I think the gradual ramping of temperature is what helps account for the huge attenuations that this yeast is capabale of.

I don't have experience with 500 specifically but I use a ramp and crash for most of my bigger beers. I used to have attenuation problems periodically that seem to have been resolved with a 5 day ramp of min recommended ferm temp to Max- hold for 3-10 days then crash cool to drop yeast.

Essentially everything that has been said is good advice. Starting cool and ramping up the temperature is especially relevant with that yeast, and as permo said, it won't produce off flavors until you're well north of 80*F. Once it's going, that yeast will not stop until your beer is drier than a desert. It also refuses to floc out unless you cold crash it, so if you have the means, do that. Make sure you're getting healthy, fresh yeast as well- it shouldn't have a problem with 1.081 even without a starter.

Also, what's your recipe for the Elf?

Man talk about raising a thread back from the dead. I had a similar problem with wlp500 recently. I used a sufficient starter but my temp started to high and then we had a cold front come through. Good to know about not getting off flavors till above 80F though, I might crank up the heater in that room.
As for the original OP, we may need a time machine to help him out.

I don't have a time machine corbomite but that yeast doesn't like a sudden cooling. Hopefully you can get it going again. I would recommend swirling the yeast back into suspension while raising the temp and hopefully it will get going.

Good thread

I've used this strain a few times and it doesn't seem to go as dry as some Belgian strains. I just had a 1.080 brew (another Grande Reserve 'clone') that had about 6.75% sugar finish at 1.011 and I mashed reasonably low. A problem with going too warm is the higher alcohols. The beer I just racked had some heat that I hope subsides. I started around 64* F and let it ramp up to 72* F over the first week or so.

If you ramp slowly, most alcohol conversion will take place at the lower temps and fusel alcohol won't be much of a problem.

miatawnt2b said:

Temps stable 70-72, The first starter was about 1/2 pint for 11 gal of 1.091 wort. A little low, but it did take right off. Second batch was pitched on the first batches yeast, a good solid, dense 1 quart of yeast.

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My experience with the yeast (3 batches now) has it fermenting about 10+ degrees north of the ambient temperatures. Also agree with another poster that the yeast does not like sudden drops in temp. On one batch it was getter really cold outside at night. During the day I had 68* temps but would crash to 62 at night.

rjwhite41 said:

I don't have a time machine corbomite but that yeast doesn't like a sudden cooling. Hopefully you can get it going again. I would recommend swirling the yeast back into suspension while raising the temp and hopefully it will get going.

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Thanks for the advice, I have tried this but alas, it may be too late for this beer. I guess the yeast can't take all the blame for my higher than desired FG, the 1+ pound of special B should take on some of the burden.

corbomite said:

Thanks for the advice, I have tried this but alas, it may be too late for this beer. I guess the yeast can't take all the blame for my higher than desired FG, the 1+ pound of special B should take on some of the burden.

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How high is it? What was the OG? What is the current SG?

rjwhite41 said:

How high is it? What was the OG? What is the current SG?

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It had 1 lb 2 oz of special B and the rest was 2-row and a lb of belgian candy sugar.
OG 1.074
FG 1.018
I wasn't expecting much lower(w/ 75% efficiency it should be at 1.015) so it isn't a huge deal I just think without the quick drop in temp I might be able to squeeze out another point or two.

This is a great thread. I'm about to brew a belgian dubbel and its the first time using this yeast for me. I plan on using a water bath around my carboy with an aquarium heater to be able to ramp up the temps. After reading this I know to pitch on the low side and ramp up slowly. :rockin: just the info i was looking for.

I would agree with you completely corbomite, I believe you are done.

fixitoscar-start low and let it free rise first. Sometimes it can raise temperature quite a bit on it's own.

Can anyone tell me how long wlp500 usually takes to dry out the beer? I made a Golden Strong with this, and at 9 days I have almost no airlock activity. Would it finish out that fast? I did the whole pitch low and ramp up and I have let it ramp to 74 at this point.

Also thanks to this thread for the info on cool crashing it, I was thinking it did look at little hazy and was wondering if the yeast would floc out or not.

It could finish that fast but you'll need to take a gravity sample to know anything.

I have a batch in secondary right now with WLP500. I transferred it after 13 days. It started at 1.088 and I transferred it at 1.015. Most of the activity was done in about 8 or 9 days so you should be right on track.

Good tips on cold crashing as mine is still hazy after almost a week in secondary.

Also, giving a second dose of oxygen at 12 hours could help.

Wow, thanks for the answers. Mine is starting to floc out quite nicely actually. The haze is almost all gone. I let the temps rise to 74 and the yeast kept working now its dropping out pretty well. I think I'll take a gravity reading tomorrow.

My guess is it's your stater size. I just used wlp500 for a dark strong at 1.089 and just like you said very strong for 3 days but heres the difference I pitched 1.5 liters for my gravity and after 3 days I was down to 1.018 wlp500 is a beast !!!! My mistake was I started at 75 degrees so I do have a lot of esters and some phenol characters but that was my fault. on the white labs site it says under 65 will produce "earthy" flavors. next time start at a lower temp and use a much larger starter for that OG. My guess is you'll be fine, also check your use by date.

Hi, I'm making a starter with this yeast and it hasn't started fermenting in the first 24 hours. Should I be worried?

More info: The best by date was two days before I pitched the starter. My house is under 65 degrees. I used 1/2 cup DME in 2 cups of water (I'm making a 1/2 batch).

Thanks!

jankdc said:

Hi, I'm making a starter with this yeast and it hasn't started fermenting in the first 24 hours. Should I be worried?

More info: The best by date was two days before I pitched the starter. My house is under 65 degrees. I used 1/2 cup DME in 2 cups of water (I'm making a 1/2 batch).

Thanks!

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Why do you think it is not fermenting? Have you used a hydrometer to check ? Don't gauge fermentation by airlock alone. What was your original gravity ? The date is kind if concerning as the viability is very low.

I didn't want to open it up and check the hydrometer, so I just let it wait. When I came home today, I could see tiny bubbles. I'm very happy. So 40-44 hours for it to show signs of life. I'm so glad that I didn't pitch it directly into the wort.

jankdc said:

. I'm so glad that I didn't pitch it directly into the wort.

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Amen!!! I used to just toss it in, but IME starters make a better product and fewer worries!

permo said:

I have no experience with WLP500, but I have used cultured chimay yeast numurous times...and it can be touchy....here is what I found out

#1 make a BIG starter

#2 pitch cool and control the temp for the first 2-3 days

#3 ramp that baby up, I actually like to get close to 80 degrees at the end of fermentation

Personally, I think the gradual ramping of temperature is what helps account for the huge attenuations that this yeast is capabale of.

Click to expand...

This is my experience as well. I'll pitch in the mid sixties and raise the temp to 78 over the course of a week. Makes a tasty brew. . .

i've got a strong belgian pale going right now with wlp500. made a 1200ml starter and mashed at 154. i started off day 1 at 68 degrees, day two at 70 and day three at 72 and i'm now turning off the ferm chamber to let it finish up. went from 1.075 to 1.018 in three days, so for me, it's worked. i'm guessing the good starter size and pure 02 aeration is the key with this one (as with most)

oh and absolutely tons of rich red fruit flavor with a spice backbone. this is the first time i've used this yeast and it's delicious.

I used this strain for the first time a few months ago. 2 cups wateer & 1/2 cup DME starter. No real activity in the starter at all other than visually seeing the yeast multiply on the bottom. Pitched it 64 and let it take itself to 68-69. In 3 weeks it took my Trippel to .008 from .075. Pretty impressive yeast. At bottling, 4 weeks from the day of brewing, there was no hot alcohol taste at all. I can't wait until Fall to crack the first bottle.

If it matters, I mashed low, 149* for 90 minutes.

I saw someone had a Mad Elf clone recipe...which one and how did it turn out? I want to make that in the Spring with some of this 500 yeast.

smalliewader said:

I used this strain for the first time a few months ago. 2 cups wateer & 1/2 cup DME starter. No real activity in the starter at all other than visually seeing the yeast multiply on the bottom. Pitched it 64 and let it take itself to 68-69. In 3 weeks it took my Trippel to .008 from .075. Pretty impressive yeast. At bottling, 4 weeks from the day of brewing, there was no hot alcohol taste at all. I can't wait until Fall to crack the first bottle.

If it matters, I mashed low, 149* for 90 minutes.

I saw someone had a Mad Elf clone recipe...which one and how did it turn out? I want to make that in the Spring with some of this 500 yeast.

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Hey I wasn't the guy with the mad elf clone but if you search the recipe database and look under belgian ales find the recipe for drinkin surfers Trappist ale. This beer is great and ages wonderfully. It's about 1 srm lighter but the flavor in a blind tasting was spot on.

Cool, I'll look that up.

EDIT: found it....but there's no way this recipe is close to Mad Elf. There's no cherry or honey in it. Am I missing something?

smalliewader said:

Cool, I'll look that up.

EDIT: found it....but there's no way this recipe is close to Mad Elf. There's no cherry or honey in it. Am I missing something?

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The special B adds a plum cherry rasiny flavor but your right there is no honey but you could add it which would be nice. All I can say is after 8 or so months of aging this is very close in flavor to mad elf.

Does anyone have any experience fermenting this yeast over 75? I have a belgian IPA going that i pitched a vial of 500 and one of 550. First night it sat in a tub around 66F, airlock activity started and then stopped. the following day I took it out of the tub and brought it downstairs. temp has climbed to 80 in a day...not sure if I should bring it back down or let it do what it will. Any suggestions?

Moved and gave it a brief ice bath. Back down to 72. May try to move it slowly back up to 80 after fermentation slows