fusel from brett?

I made a simple blond trying to mimic the Cuvee 4 from Redbud brewing. Not being able to get any info from them I cultured the yeast from the bottle. On smell it appeared to be brett c. Very fruity in smell and taste. 5 gal batch 25 IBU, pitched the starter and let it sit for 3 days then pitched the dregs from a Dupont bottle. Great ferm, down to 1.00 in 2 weeks, I now have a pellicle and the beer beneath has a strong isopropal alcohol taste and smell. Now, being that the Dupont strain is supposed to be very similar to 3711 french saision, fermenting warm (72-75) should not have been a problem, it has not in the past. So, my assumption is the brett is the cause of the fusel. Is that right? Will it clean up? Time may tell, but I thought I'd ask in order to know what to expect. I'll certainly let it ride and continue taste test.

I fermented a saison with 3711 at those temps a few months back. Came out fairly clean with a touch of spice and banana esters.
You didn't ferment too warm so I really don't know

Yup, not worried about the 3711, done too many with it and the Belgium strain all at warm to hot (95) with no issues. I can find very little in the way of issues with brett producing the higher alcohols, other than that they tend to reduce them by breaking them down. Not sure if anyone else has seen this before. As a side note, it is not the normal brett funk, but a pretty clear rubbing alcohol smell and flavor.

If you abuse yeast with super high temps (excluding crazy saison yeasts which can handle temps in the 90s), they will produce a dastardly beverage. But at 75F, it doesn't sound like you have done so. Bottom line, I think it will clean itself up in time. High o.g. can also produce fusels, but they also clean up in time. What was the o.g.?

The Dupont strain can handle temps in the 90s (Dupont actually ferments in the 90s), and Brett is OK up into the 80s, maybe higher.

Maybe what you are smelling or tasting is not fusel alcohols. Let it ride and see what it ends up like.

what was the o.g.?

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1.058

DuPont is 3724 not 3711. I have fermented 3711 at 78 with no issues; however, it was a petite saison at 4% abv.

3711 will also ferment hot. My house saison is 6.5% ABV, fermented with an equal blend of 3711/3724 at 82. Never had any issues.

I have never gotten fusels from brett (which isn't to say it can't happen). You're probably just getting some sort of fermentation off-flavor that will clean up in time.

Did you pitch warm? We all know that Saisons can ferment warm/hot but you still need to pitch on the cooler side so you dont shock the yeast. I brew a fair amount of Saisons, with and w/o Brett, and always pitch in the mid to high 60's, let it free rise into the 70's then add heat as it starts to level off. Ive never had an issue with fusels from Brett but I have noticed it in other peoples beers, and I always wonder if they are pitching too warm.

After brewing about 10 batches of saisons I've always pitched at room temp 72-ish and ramped them up in various ways. Needless to say I've never had one have anything like what this batch is putting off. Three weeks now and the isopropal smell is VERY present, its hard to judge the taste as it is very complex, but there is a noticeable fusel aftertaste and aroma through the nose. I'm going to leave it for a while and see how it ages. The pelicle is great! about 3/4-1" thick where I keep disturbing it to grab samples, gravity is right at 1.002 and holding. If I can get rid of the damn fusel taste it will be a wonderful saison.

i got huge fusels once from pitching dupont yeast and WLP brett brux together at primary in a 1.066 saison. started warm (23c) and it free-rose up to 32c! i put some before a tasting panel at a beer bar and we all got solvent, rubbing alcohol flavors and very hot alcohol feeling in the chest. i have no idea who the culprit was, or if it was some interaction between the two strains causing fusels. i'm about to try a similar brew, split into batches with dupont + a couple brett strains, vs only dupont, and going to start it out cooler, will report back if there's anything interesting!

hmm...at least I'm not the only one. Let us know if it duplicates again. I'll shy away from the mix of the two for now. praying the fusel cleans up in time.

Did a 1.065 saison with our house blend of 3711/Brux. Temps got a little too high (80's). Fusel bomb.

First batch we've made where fusels were a problem. Letting it sit to see if it will age out.

How long have you been aging at this point? Have you seen any improvement up to now?

i brewed my 'headache saison' in june and tried one again this week. it has not improved.

mmmm...well looks like this batch will go down the drain then. I was hoping at worst I could use it for blending, but the taste is like dropping an oz of rubbing alcohol into a 12oz glass of blond. The after taste is a wonderful apple-pineapple-passion fruit but the initial knock down fusels just make it terrible.

well crap....I decided to dump it today, pulled the top and called my wife over to see and touch the pellicle before I ****canned it. Thought, I'll take a quick sample and see if any changes have occurred. Sure as heck, it is beginning to develop a nice tart backdrop and the rubbing alcohol taste is diminished but still very present. The smell is still strong fusel, but the lid is back on and in the back it goes for a few months. Had to get a new primary bucket so I could make my belgo-strong ale today. When all else fails, leave it alone and see what it does.

Dinnerstick,

Did you bottle while you had the fusels still in there or are you trying to see if they bulk age out? I've found that bulk aging seems to make things like fusels go away quicker than in the bottle.

I actually had something very similar. Now i was going for what i called "farmhouse triple". Basic triple recipe brewed to an OG of 1.092. Pitched a healthy starter of WLP500. Fermented as usual (65F)Decided this would be when I'd add the Brett. Ended up having an issue with not being at to get Brett cultures. So i added Reyon Vert dregs, Orval dregs, and a vial of American farmhouse blend.

From the start i knew i was gonna add several lbs of DME/sugar, so i added enough to get me to 1.1026ish and added that as the krausen was dropping. Pitched the farmhouse blend and dregs.

Fermentation went crazy and i left for a trip to Ireland. Got home a month later, ended up getting on a new production and forgot about the thing. About 4 months after the second fermentation i was finally able to check gravity (1.004)and sample it. Good god my chest tightened up, i felt dizzy and **** it burned going down. I knew logically that i was fine but for a split second thought i had made something toxic. I hate dumping batches but was prepared to get rid of it. Work picked up, got stuck editing a huge project so let it sit for close to 6 months. Figured worst that would happen is the thing oxidized and I'd dump it.

Pulled a sample this weekend. Holy **** it's amazing. The best beer I've ever had. All that fusel flavor is gone, the alcohol is nice and mellow, the yeast flavor is perfectly balanced and there's a wonderful Brett tartness to the beer.

That was when i fell in love with Brett.

marvaden said:

Dinnerstick,

Did you bottle while you had the fusels still in there or are you trying to see if they bulk age out? I've found that bulk aging seems to make things like fusels go away quicker than in the bottle.

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hi, fortunately this was a small test batch, i'm just working on a recipe. so i happened to have a few forgotten bottles and encountered one on a thirsty afternoon, rather then that i was trying to age it out. my second round of tests are fermenting now, with dupont yeast and with dupont + several brett strains...

I'd give the Brett a chance to clean things up. I've watched it eat enormous fruity dry hop aromas off of some of my saisons, so I think it can eat & clean up anything. If anything, I'd pitch more Brett in there!

i have some early results in from a partially successful experiment... i made the same saison recipe that previously turned out tasting like paint thinner from high temp saison+brett brux ferment. these are all small batches btw so failures are not tragic. i split it in two and pitched 1. just dupont yeast, and 2. dupont + WLP 650 644 653 bretts (brux, lamb, trois). instead of starting at room temp and ramping up from there as my previous one, i started cool (18-19) with lots of oxygen, and let them free rise, as small batches they didn't really get above 20-21. the dupont-only i then kept at 26-28, but i was too late to get the temp up and the crapping yeast quit the game, threw its toys out of the crib and sulked off to the bottom of the jug leaving me with 1.030, but hey- no fusels! dumped it. meanwhile the other one went to 1.006 (from 1.064), and the sip i snuck while racking to dry hop containers was very promising, no hint of solvent, but it was still quite yeasty. now i have it split for 3 different dry hops, but that's a different story. my early conclusion: keep the temps low with dupont/brett mixes, don't worry about the dupont yeast stalling out (or use french saison), the brett will finish things off. still not sure if i'll get that spicy lemony saison yeast character in this, but i'll report back with that too once these are cleared and carbed up.

Dumping our's this week. Brewed in March, still a fuselly mess.

conclusion from the above, despite lacking the proper control of saison-only. the beers all came out with moderate saison character that you'd expect from dupont strain. i served them to a tasting panel comprising beer nerds, bartenders at a beer bar, and non-beer enthusiasts. they were a few dry hop variants of the same beer. everyone picked up a fresh lemony tartness that you would want in a saison, but no hint of the spicy pepper notes, and everyone liked the dry finish. in fact most thought it was too dry, and lacking a bit of body. the brett really chewed through everything, even with a bit of flaked oat in the recipe. no obvious funk, but the interesting fermentation character was thought to sit well with the hop, most notably in an all-chinook dry hop (to go with a bit of late kettle hersbrucker). saaz dry hop was almost unnoticeable, simcoe+amarillo was fruity and some described this beer as like a sports drink, fruity and chuggable!
I think there's a fine line between fusel bomb and achieving a true saison fermentation character here, and i'm still trying to find it. on to the next round of experiments! to add a bit of body and get that peppery spice.