First Wort Hops: Do they replace the 60 min addition?

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Moody_Copperpot

Moody_Copperpot

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I'm interested in trying first wort hopping. My question is this: If I go with this method, will the FWH replace my 60 minute addition of hops?
I'm brewing an imperial IPA and right now my hop schedule is 60,20,15,19,5, flame out. If I were to do this method, would the ounce of summit hops I would add at 60 minutes just be done as FWH, and there would no longer be a 60 min addition?
 
I would be interested in the answer too. Everything I have read says you get more IBUs out of FWH, but it is more subdued, so you should calculate the IBUs as though it were a 20 minute addition.

To your question. Based on what I have read, it does not replace the 60 minute addition.

I did my first FWH last week in an APA. I ran the numbers as though it was a 20 minute addition. I took a gravity sample after 6 days (went from 1.057 to 1.010), and as usual I drank the sample. The sample surprised me in that it had a lot more hop flavor than I expected. I did not note any increase in bitterness, tasted really good.

I don't know if the increased flavor was due to FWH or other changes I made. I used leaf rather than pellets for the first time in a long time and let them swim free rather than in a bag.

Looking forward to getting this one in the bottle ....... Will be a while; Got 2 brews ahead of it and no spare bottles.
 
Nope. IBUs are based on the time the hops are *boiled* So, naturally, if you toss them in when you drain your mash the hops go in the kettle and are boiled as long as the, um, boil.

The 20 minute addition equivalent IMHO is rubbish! There is a certain change in the flavor since the hops sit in sub boiling temps for a while before boiling but in my experience it is not equivalent to a 20 minute addition. It is just different. Try it!

FWIW and YMMV and WYF,

Steve da sleeve
 
There's been a lot posted on here about FWH, but I recall most of it being 1) opinion, or 2) reguritation of something people read (may or may not be true)

Regardless, I personally don't think it would be appropriate for an IIPA, as you really want some of that nice bitterness you get from a 60 minute addition.
 
I really like the FWH method...has worked out well for me. I still add my 60min hops cause like stevedasleeve said...it's "boiled" they are calculating the IBU's. I mean you still get some IBU's added but they are not as high. I think it really gives a nice smoothness about the beer. Again...this is my opinion.
 
AZ_IPA said:
There's been a lot posted on here about FWH, but I recall most of it being 1) opinion, or 2) reguritation of something people read (may or may not be true)

Regardless, I personally don't think it would be appropriate for an IIPA, as you really want some of that nice bitterness you get from a 60 minute addition.
Click to expand...

Sorry to jump on you man but of course it is 1)opinion... what else?!
 
I don't believe this nonsense about the IBUs being like a 20min addition... maaaaaaaybe I'll accept that the flavor contribution is like a 20min.

I'll just have to try it myself, but to be honest I really like to get through the hot break before adding my hops so it's not likely I'll ever go this route. I hate going through the boil and eyeballing those bits of hop stuck to the kettle wall and NOT IN THE BEER.

Hey maybe that's why they say FWH is like a 20min addition - because you waste a ton of hops on the kettle wall! Zing!

But seriously, I just don't think enough people are doing side by side comparisons with this method. I want to hear more stories about people running off one mash into two pots and simultaneously boiling. I just think that two separate brew sessions have too much chance for error, no matter how good your process is. Even BMC have to blend batches to achieve solidarity.
 
I perceive the flavor more subtle and the bitterness stronger than a 20 minute addition and I don't think it's like a 30. It's something that needs experimenting with to get it right for your system and recipe. I use it for it's smoother bitterness and light background flavor.
 
I tend to use FWH for all my beers, even the low hop ones. A professional brewer friend swears by it for avoiding boil overs, something that was a real problem when I was brewing in the kitchen. This spring my brewing partner and I are going to put together an experiment on whether or not it affects the overall flavor of a beer, if you dump all your all hops in at FWH, or if we stagger them.

I still do a 60 addition though the overall amount of hops I use have increased.
 
I use FWH in addition to a 60 addition. I movu. 20&15 minute additions to FWH for some beers. It is a much smoother bitterness IMHO

Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk
 
wildseedgrrrl said:
I tend to use FWH for all my beers, even the low hop ones. A professional brewer friend swears by it for avoiding boil overs, something that was a real problem when I was brewing in the kitchen. This spring my brewing partner and I are going to put together an experiment on whether or not it affects the overall flavor of a beer, if you dump all your all hops in at FWH, or if we stagger them.

I still do a 60 addition though the overall amount of hops I use have increased.
Click to expand...

Oh I know myself that FWH for all your hop additions vs ... whatever... is going to change the flavor. The question is how!? IBU calculations IMHO are pretty hit or miss, and the flavor contribution from various additions, 20 mins vs 5 mins etc is quite a bit more complex than than simply adding up IBUs - which are wrong most of the time anyway for all IBU calculations I have used. Daniels, Tinseth, Rager and Morey all sometimes get close and at other times are wildly wrong, for my beers at least!

One thing I am interested in trying is an IPA with FWH and dry hops only, no other additions. I need to get a buffer going first - almost there - so if the beer sucks I'll still have a good bit of the good stuff to take the sting out.

.....I'm rambling here, sorry!!

Steve da sleeve
 
stevedasleeve said:
One thing I am interested in trying is an IPA with FWH and dry hops only, no other additions. I need to get a buffer going first - almost there - so if the beer sucks I'll still have a good bit of the good stuff to take the sting out.

.....I'm rambling here, sorry!!

Steve da sleeve
Click to expand...

My blackeye IPA is fwh, 60 & dry hop only. For having no boil addition after 60, it has a great hop flavor.
As an experiment on one brewday I moved all the hops after 60 to FWH. I have brewed it that way ever since.

Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk
 
stevea1210 said:
My blackeye IPA is fwh, 60 & dry hop only. For having no boil addition after 60, it has a great hop flavor.
As an experiment on one brewday I moved all the hops after 60 to FWH. I have brewed it that way ever since.
Click to expand...

I think I may try that...I have been FWH-ing for probably the last 4 beers (took about half a year off tho) and had great luck...I still did the 60, 30 and so on...but hearing how you did this...peaks my curiosity. I mean...it cant really ruin a beer that much.
 
so you guys do FWH,and a 60 min. addition? I have been doing it as my bittering addition. and it works well. I really need to go get some grain and try it that way.

thanks alot,now I wont be able to sleep tonight. :D
 
buzzkill said:
so you guys do FWH,and a 60 min. addition? I have been doing it as my bittering addition. and it works well. I really need to go get some grain and try it that way.

thanks alot,now I wont be able to sleep tonight. :D
Click to expand...

Yes on still adding 60 addition...I know that the IBU's won't be where I want them to be (depending on the beer) so I still add at 60...I'm a hophead...so I like my IBU's...high!! :cross:
 
stevea1210 said:
If you're interested, here is the recipe:
http://brewing.steveandemily.net/2010/04/23/blackeye-ipa-version-4-14b-2/
Click to expand...

I may just brew that this weekend...been kickin around what I might brew and this could be the winner! :ban: plus my buddy who is getting into it wants to help and loves IPA's.

:off:

A few weeks ago I lost ALL my recipes (that's what happens when you don't back your s**t up) and have to start over. I still may have some receipts from other brews but will have to go in search of. So the recipe for my first "newly" reconstructed brew list is under my recipe list...(scratch that...I can't figure out how to post my recipe there, so here it is) It's a nice red with nice hop aroma...(haven't tried it yet tho, still dry hopping) but so far looks and smells good...actually tasted when I racked to secondary...can't wait for the real thing. My BHE was a bit lower then I expected but I think it was due to only sparging twice and leaving some behind (still not sure about the calculator in BS). I should have FWHed my 45 & 30 min hops as well...hence this thread! I also used Safeale 05 as well...must have forgot to enter that in. Most of the grains I used were Belgian but BS really didn't have certain distinctions for all the grains...I can always enter them in I guess.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG hit 1.061
Estimated Color: 17.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 49.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 67.70 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 80.00 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (7.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.50 lb Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.25 lb Carafa I (337.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
0.75 oz Pearle [6.70 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop)Hops 17.4 IBU
1.00 oz Pearle [4.60 %] (60 min) Hops 16.1 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (45 min) Hops 6.5 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (30 min) Hops 5.4 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.60 %] (15 min) Hops 4.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.60 %] (5 min) (Aroma Hop-SHops -
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 12.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 15.63 qt of water at 170.1 F 158.0 F


Anyways...rock on! :rockin:
 
My IPA is a 90 minute boil, so I do a FWH and a 60 minute addition. I'm thinking of just adding my first hop addition at the start of the 90 minutes next time rather than FWH. I'll still do the 60 minute addition too of course. I kinda miss the hearty hop bite in the back of my throat when I do the FWH.
 
If its meant to have hop character, I use FWH instead of 60min adds.

FWH+dry hop definitely makes some great beer on its own.
 
I FWH for one reason only: to break the surface tension of my wort to reduce the chance of a boil over. If the recipe calls for 1.5oz @ 60, Ill throw in a few pellets to reduce a boil over.
 
Ralelen said:
I FWH for one reason only: to break the surface tension of my wort to reduce the chance of a boil over. If the recipe calls for 1.5oz @ 60, Ill throw in a few pellets to reduce a boil over.
Click to expand...

FWH always prevents a boil over for me too. Works like a charm.

And the resulting bitterness is not *too* clean for an IPA as some people say. Works just fine.

I've used FWH in more than 50 batches with good results.
 
logdrum said:
As a replacement for a 60, or as the flavor/aroma quotient?

-d
Click to expand...

I use it for bittering. In my experience, it doesn't give a *lot* of aroma/flavor. The bittering is a touch smoother and there's some aroma and flavor, but it's not really a big deal in my experience. Anyway, when I FWH, I skip any other bittering addition and hop as usual for late additions, but then a lot of my recipes are based around FWH from the start anyway.
 
stevedasleeve said:
Nice recipe - looks very similar to what I might do. I bet you get below 1.019 right? One thing that popped out ... 2.7 oz Chocolate malt?! Why not 3?!
Click to expand...

Thanks. I just checked. I've brewed this 4 times and the FG on this has been 1.011 , 1.012, 1.014, and 1.015. I've found that beersmith is great for everything except predicting FG. I never go by that.

I'm sure I used 3 oz. The 2.7 was probably a rounding from an efficiency scaling. If my effeciency has changed a good bit since last time I've brewed a recipe, I'll scale it to ensure I come close to the numbers again.

Kugster said:
I may just brew that this weekend...been kickin around what I might brew and this could be the winner! :ban: plus my buddy who is getting into it wants to help and loves IPA's.
Click to expand...

If you do brew it, let me know how it comes out.
 
stevea1210 said:
If you do brew it, let me know how it comes out.
Click to expand...

I am for sure gonna do it...I will make my "ass-istant" keep good notes...seeing how my laptop crashed and desktop isn't in the garage...

only bummer part is that my LHBS nails ya on their hop prices...and I might actually use a wyeast...I've been using 05 a lot and wanna get a good strain to "wash"

I'll keep ya posted!

Cheers!:mug:
 
stevea1210 said:
If you do brew it, let me know how it comes out.
Click to expand...

Well...starting week 2 in the fermenter and still bubbling away. I ended up using Wyeast 1332 PNW ale. Wanna see how that comes out. I over shot my mash temp by 2* but I think it will still be good. I came in at 1.063 and BeerSmith says I got 70% eff. I don't know how much I trust it's calculations...

Can't wait to dry hop it...smells great so far!

Rock on! :rockin:

Koogz
 
Sweet. I hope you enjoy it. I haven't brewed that recipe in a while...I have everything for it on hand, maybe I will brew a batch of that soon.
 
stevedasleeve said:
Nope. IBUs are based on the time the hops are *boiled* So, naturally, if you toss them in when you drain your mash the hops go in the kettle and are boiled as long as the, um, boil.

The 20 minute addition equivalent IMHO is rubbish! There is a certain change in the flavor since the hops sit in sub boiling temps for a while before boiling but in my experience it is not equivalent to a 20 minute addition. It is just different. Try it!

FWIW and YMMV and WYF,

Steve da sleeve
Click to expand...

In my experience, and that of most tasters in an experiment I did, it was much more like a 20 min., addition than a 60 min, addition.
 
buzzkill said:
so you guys do FWH,and a 60 min. addition? I have been doing it as my bittering addition. and it works well. I really need to go get some grain and try it that way.

thanks alot,now I wont be able to sleep tonight. :D
Click to expand...

I do both FWH and a 60 addition usually. Sometimes I'll just add a huge amount of FWH and skip the 60, but it's a very different quality of bittering.
 
Denny said:
I do both FWH and a 60 addition usually. Sometimes I'll just add a huge amount of FWH and skip the 60, but it's a very different quality of bittering.
Click to expand...

I have been doing this for the last 4 or 5 brews and really like the outcome...I think I will continue to do this...I have yet to try eliminating the 60 min addition but that is next on the list.
 
I do EITHER a FWH OR a 60 min for my bittering...haven't brewed an IIPA yet, but when I do I will likely do both.

In my completely subjective and amateur opinion, it seems like the FWH bitterness is more infused and subtle throughout the beer. In terms of IBU, I would assume that FWH imparts at least as much IBU value to the wort as a 60min addition.

Might be an interesting experiment to split a batch and do a side-by-side, although I'm sure that's been done a ton of times by others.
 

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