Bad lager

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trigger_andy

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Ive tried my hand at making Lager and its turned out terribly. :(

I mostly have myself to blamb but I wonder if there is anyway to rescue it?

Firstly, I think Ive added way to little yeast. Ive made two 19 ltr batches and I only used one vial of White Labs Lager Yeast in each keg. I never made a starter, just tipped it right in.

I have a BrewPi that regulates my Fermentation Fridge and I largered it at the right temps for the desired time but as Ie been working away from home for a long time Ive not had a chance to transfer to a secondary yet. So the Lager has been sitting on the yeast for over 3 months. They are transferred now to another keg.

My Wife tried both the kegs and she says they tasted not good, very bland and a bit vegetable like.


Is there anyway to rescue this batch or should I just write it off as a lesson learned?

How should I have yeasted them?


Cheers,

Andy
 
"... a bit vegetable like." sounds like DMS to me, which will not improve with time.

Lagers tend to utilize Pilsner malt and Pilsner is more susceptible to DMS than the other base grains. Due to this, it is strongly recommended that brewers utilize a 90 minute boil when brewing with Pils to drive off the precursor to DMS. Does your recipe have Pilsner in it and did you do an extended boil?
 
Thanks for the reply. :)

Yes, there is Pilsner Malt and Im looking back at my records now for the boil time but Im not sure if it was 90 mins or not. Im 80% it was though. Im not getting the aroma of cooked or creamed corn DMS seems to be associated with it.
 
Hmmmmm, I'll have to ask my Wife to check for me. Im working away.

What about the very bland taste? Any thoughts on that? Looking closer at what I should have done with my live yeast it recomemned making a 4 pint starter! :O I never did this, so I wonder if its anything to do with the blandness and the plant taste is from sitting on what yeast did actually ferment?

I wonder if re-pitching at this stage would bring it back?
 
Well, some lagers are supposed to be bland, particularly the light ones.

Having that kind of beer sitting on the yeast for 3 months probably didn't help, either. I suppose there could be some autolysis of the yeast going on, but I'd suspect DMS first.

More yeast is not likely to help you, I'm afraid. Of course, you could try it, but you might want to just cut your losses and try brewing another batch rather than trying to fix one that went bad.
 
bland is more than likely a recipe problem.

the vegetable-like flavor is more than likely DMS. if it were autolysis, they say you can't ever go back from smelling something like that, so you would've noticed when you transferred.

did you sample it when you transferred it to the keg?

did you dry hop it by chance, and/or just put all the trub and hop crap from the kettle into the fermenter?

even if you did boil for 90 mins, did you chill quickly?
 
Thanks for the reply. :)

I did sample the wort and it was sweet and it was also very sticky. There was no apparent off flavors or smells then.

I never dry hopped and when I added hops it was in a hop bag. There was very little trub brought over but there could easily have been some. I chilled as quickly as I could using a Coil. I chilled 10 gallons within 30 minutes for sure but more like 20 minutes.

So the general consensus is dump the batch?

I have had no success with Pils and Lagers at all and its really bothering me. Any suggestions as to ow I can fix this for next time. Im not gonna let it beat me. :D


joshesmusica said:
bland is more than likely a recipe problem.

the vegetable-like flavor is more than likely DMS. if it were autolysis, they say you can't ever go back from smelling something like that, so you would've noticed when you transferred.

did you sample it when you transferred it to the keg?

did you dry hop it by chance, and/or just put all the trub and hop crap from the kettle into the fermenter?

even if you did boil for 90 mins, did you chill quickly?
Click to expand...
 
Tasting uncared, uncoiled beer is a poor indication of the final product. Carbonation changes everything.
Carb up a taste and give it a shot, what have you to lose?
 
yeah i second the not dumping it. although i think he means "uncarbed" and "unconditioned?" it's definitely been conditioning for a while now.

i would bottle it, wait the three weeks for it to carbonate, then pop one in the fridge for a couple days (when the beer is warm it can hold less co2 in suspension, so there's more in the headspace than in the beer. when you chill it, it allows the co2 to be reabsorbed back into suspension. but it's not immediate since there's little contact between the beer and the head space), and see how it tastes/how the carbonation is going.

if it's not that great tasting, but the carbonation is good, then you can take the whole batch, and basically put it through another lagering period by putting all the bottles in the fridge. although you said it's 10 gallons, so maybe just go with like 20 or something.

we can't really help you with making it better if you don't share with us your recipe, processes, and all that good info.
 
We carbed up a Cornelius but it was still bad. :(

I could try a few bottles though, cant hurt. :) One Keg tasted better than the other so would be an interesting experiment. :)

So re-pitching with the correct amount of yeast is not a good idea?

Bellybuster said:
Tasting uncared, uncoiled beer is a poor indication of the final product. Carbonation changes everything.
Carb up a taste and give it a shot, what have you to lose?
Click to expand...
 
re-pitching? you're way past re-pitching, the yeast you did pitch finished the job. it just prolly took longer (which you didn't notice since you were gone), and probably threw out some off-flavors. once you've reached FG, re-pitching yeast is pretty much useless.

i was gonna suggest lagering it, but i see that you did that for almost 3 months. so i think it might be time to cut your losses on this one.

as i said, give us your recipe and how you brewed it and we can help you make it better next time. the off-flavors likely came from you not pitching enough yeast, and possibly the fact that it sat on the yeast for 3 months at lager temps. the blandness likely came from a bland recipe.
 
Hey, thanks again for the reply.

I followed this recipe very loosely, ie I never performed a double decoction and carried out a single stage mash. I never airated either.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=110497

Im not a huge fan of Lagers and Pils but friends and family are and I cant let it beat me. :D

My SG was on the button at 1.056 and my Wife measured it again last night and its at 1.012 so the numbers are correct anyway. She sampled it again and said it actually tastes better since she last tried it (1 month ago) now it tastes a bit like apple with a slightly bitter aroma and aftertaste.

We live in Scotland but I work in Norway and Ive only managed to get home a few days a month. Then I buggerd my back and was completely out of action for 3 months, I could hardly even sit up and was on Morphine. All better now and ready to attack a Pils recipe again. :)

Currently Im fermenting a Norwegian Christmas Beer which will age in the Bottle and be ready in time for Christmas. :mug:



joshesmusica said:
re-pitching? you're way past re-pitching, the yeast you did pitch finished the job. it just prolly took longer (which you didn't notice since you were gone), and probably threw out some off-flavors. once you've reached FG, re-pitching yeast is pretty much useless.

i was gonna suggest lagering it, but i see that you did that for almost 3 months. so i think it might be time to cut your losses on this one.

as i said, give us your recipe and how you brewed it and we can help you make it better next time. the off-flavors likely came from you not pitching enough yeast, and possibly the fact that it sat on the yeast for 3 months at lager temps. the blandness likely came from a bland recipe.
Click to expand...
 
trigger_andy said:
Hey, thanks again for the reply.

I followed this recipe very loosely, ie I never performed a double decoction and carried out a single stage mash. I never airated either.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=110497

Im not a huge fan of Lagers and Pils but friends and family are and I cant let it beat me. :D

My SG was on the button at 1.056 and my Wife measured it again last night and its at 1.012 so the numbers are correct anyway. She sampled it again and said it actually tastes better since she last tried it (1 month ago) now it tastes a bit like apple with a slightly bitter aroma and aftertaste.

We live in Scotland but I work in Norway and Ive only managed to get home a few days a month. Then I buggerd my back and was completely out of action for 3 months, I could hardly even sit up and was on Morphine. All better now and ready to attack a Pils recipe again. :)

Currently Im fermenting a Norwegian Christmas Beer which will age in the Bottle and be ready in time for Christmas. :mug:
Click to expand...

yeah the decoction is definitely tricky. i'm currently reading a book that i highly recommend, providing you've got all the basics of brewing down (meaning that before this one you were consistently making better than average beers). it's called Brewing Better Beer, by Gordon Strong. It goes into further details of why certain things are important, or how certain mash steps and temps will make or break your flavors. especially with decoction mashing, the temp steps are incredibly important for flavor development, especially when all you've got is pilsner malt.

and especially for a lager, pitching rates and a good quality starter can go a long way if you're not aerating very well. but aerating is very important as well.

apples is pretty much coming from what is called acetaldehyde which comes from fermentation. check this out:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2011/08/common-off-flavors/

where do you work in Norway? as you might have seen, i live in stavanger.
 
trigger_andy said:
I never airated either.
Click to expand...

Aaaaaaand ... mystery solved.

Aeration is crucial with ales. With lagers, even thorough aeration is arguably inadequate, and you should actually be using oxygenation to get the requisite ppm of oxygen dissolved in the wort. The fact that you didn't do anything is a huge red flag. Underpitched yeast, with a total absence of oxygen - those poor yeasties never stood a chance.

This is why lagers are so much more difficult than ales. Pitching rates are far more important and demanding, they require a stricter oxygenation protocol, and are more sensitive to temperature changes. Compounding all this is the fact that lagers are typically mild in flavour, providing even fewer places for off-flavours to hide, making any flaws in the beer readily apparent.

I finally started producing good lagers once I upped my game to using huge starters with liquid yeast, oxygenating with pure oxygen and an oxygenation stone, and employing a thermowell, heating belt, and chest freezer to carefully manage the beer's temperature throughout the entire process.

Specifically, I build a 4L starter with 1 smack-pack of yeast, on a stir plate for 2 days, then cold crash and decant. I oxygenate for 90 seconds with pure O2. I chill the wort to 51° F, pitch the yeast, and hold it there for 2 full weeks. I then take the fermenter out of the chest freezer for 1 more week at ambient room temperature. Finally, I rack it to a keg and put it in the keezer on 12 psi of CO2. A few days later, I pop the lid and dose it with gelatin, then forget about it for a month. After all of that, I get crystal-clear, smooth tasting lager.

You can cut corners with ales and often get away with it. But (in my experience), not with lagers. What looks like overkill is actually par for the course.
 
Thanks for the reply and all the info. Ill defo get that boom and have a read. On the whole I think I brew fairly successful beers. My Wife was a big Red Wine drinker and now much prefers my Beers.

I actually still have a house in Stavanger! :D I was trying to sell it but as you know the market is terrible just now, so Ill rent out the main house and live in the Basement when In not off-shore. I live in Røyneberg, Sola.

Andy


joshesmusica said:
yeah the decoction is definitely tricky. i'm currently reading a book that i highly recommend, providing you've got all the basics of brewing down (meaning that before this one you were consistently making better than average beers). it's called Brewing Better Beer, by Gordon Strong. It goes into further details of why certain things are important, or how certain mash steps and temps will make or break your flavors. especially with decoction mashing, the temp steps are incredibly important for flavor development, especially when all you've got is pilsner malt.

and especially for a lager, pitching rates and a good quality starter can go a long way if you're not aerating very well. but aerating is very important as well.

apples is pretty much coming from what is called acetaldehyde which comes from fermentation. check this out:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2011/08/common-off-flavors/

where do you work in Norway? as you might have seen, i live in stavanger.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the reply. Its clear now where I went wrong! :D

So I need to buy a Stir Plate, an oxygenating stone and some O2. Where can I read up on starters? Specifically what do you mean by Cold Crash and decant?

On the Temp side I have the Brewpi controlled Fridge with a Greenhouse Heater installed. The Fridge also has two Temp Probes installed, one for the Thermowell and the other for the fridge. So maintaining the required temps is no issue and it self regulates for as long as its programmed to.

Im actually looking forward to my next Lager now. :)

Thanks again everyone! :mug:


kombat said:
Aaaaaaand ... mystery solved.

Aeration is crucial with ales. With lagers, even thorough aeration is arguably inadequate, and you should actually be using oxygenation to get the requisite ppm of oxygen dissolved in the wort. The fact that you didn't do anything is a huge red flag. Underpitched yeast, with a total absence of oxygen - those poor yeasties never stood a chance.

This is why lagers are so much more difficult than ales. Pitching rates are far more important and demanding, they require a stricter oxygenation protocol, and are more sensitive to temperature changes. Compounding all this is the fact that lagers are typically mild in flavour, providing even fewer places for off-flavours to hide, making any flaws in the beer readily apparent.

I finally started producing good lagers once I upped my game to using huge starters with liquid yeast, oxygenating with pure oxygen and an oxygenation stone, and employing a thermowell, heating belt, and chest freezer to carefully manage the beer's temperature throughout the entire process.

Specifically, I build a 4L starter with 1 smack-pack of yeast, on a stir plate for 2 days, then cold crash and decant. I oxygenate for 90 seconds with pure O2. I chill the wort to 51° F, pitch the yeast, and hold it there for 2 full weeks. I then take the fermenter out of the chest freezer for 1 more week at ambient room temperature. Finally, I rack it to a keg and put it in the keezer on 12 psi of CO2. A few days later, I pop the lid and dose it with gelatin, then forget about it for a month. After all of that, I get crystal-clear, smooth tasting lager.

You can cut corners with ales and often get away with it. But (in my experience), not with lagers. What looks like overkill is actually par for the course.
Click to expand...
 
I'm not an experienced lager brewer but most of it's already been hit on. The big ones seem to be

1: Lots of healthy yeast (Big starters are easy and fun to make)

Make a stir plate, buy a 5L borosilicate flask


2: Lots of oxygen

Buy an O2 setup


3: Precise and controllable fermentation temps

A chest freezer and STC1000 or equivalent are indispensable IMO.

4: Water mineral profile and mash pH, mash profiles


Read up on the process some. Lagers are very doable and a lot of fun to make. More work and planning but that's fine by me. I like lager.

I'm very happy with the results I'm getting so far.

Edit: A starter thread of my own here also

Covers some things.
 
trigger_andy said:
So I need to buy a Stir Plate, an oxygenating stone and some O2. Where can I read up on starters? Specifically what do you mean by Cold Crash and decant?
Click to expand...

Here's a thread with a good description of the process, but you can Google for lots of others, or read about it in homebrewing books. I've read a bunch, so I can't remember specifically which ones describe the process, but I'm fairly certain "Yeast" by White/Zainasheff includes a description, as would "Brewing Better Beer." Maybe someone will correct me?

Cold crashing just means moving the flask into the fridge after the yeast have finished. This accelerates them precipitating out of solution so that when you pour out all that "spent beer" from the starter, you're dumping the least possible yeast cells along with it. "Decant" just means pouring out that spent beer, leaving the yeast slurry at the bottom of the flask. You do this because that starter beer will not taste great, so you want to separate it from the actual yeast cells (i.e., the cold crash), and dumping it out, so it doesn't contaminate your main batch of beer. You just want the yeast from this starter, not the leftover starter beer.
 
I bought one (two, actually), and I'm very confident in the readings I get. It's a simple rubber stopper with an extra hole drilled in it, and a stainless tube crimped closed at one end, and flared at the other (to prevent it from going all the way through the stopper at the tip). I shove the STC-1000 probe all the way down into it, and the temperature stays very steady.
 
5 gallon batch and 1 vile of yeast is a huge under pitch for a lager. would prob even be an under pitch for an ale depending on the viability date and gravity.

idk if you can save the beer... prob not. just take this as a lesson learned. Always make starters, even for ales. also you benefit two fold by making a big starter, one cause now you have the right amount of yeast, and two you can save some for another batch in a mason jar.
 
Ok, I'll admit defeat and scratch this one off as a leason learned. :D

Ok, Ive got a follow on dilemma that I never thought I had till I started this thread.

Ive brewed a 1.079 OG batch of Norwegian Christmas Beer and I only used one Vial of Yeast Per 5gal batch. They bubbled away happily as they should and aftr a week they are now reading 1.020. Im worried that Ive under pitched this one as well. :(

Ive always used two smak packs before and this is the first time Ive used Vials on this Beer.

Within 20 hours of pitching it was almost bubbling over and now after 7 days its bubbling gently, maybe two bubbles per minute.

Is its too late to make a Starter?

Is it worth making a Starter now?

Would it be worth just dumping a vial of Yeast in each?

Should I just leave it and hope for the best?

Thanks again in advance. :)


Andy
 
I would give it more time. if anything just move it to a warmer spot and see if it attenuates a bit more.
 
Ok, thanks . :)

Its already fairly warm at 71.6f (22c) which is really near the max for this I belive?

So just leave it where it is and see what happens?

:mug:

Andy

j1n said:
I would give it more time. if anything just move it to a warmer spot and see if it attenuates a bit more.
Click to expand...
 
Perfect! Thank you!

I really appreciate all the help guys! :)

Ive not bought a 5ltr Conical, a Stir Plate and an Oxygenating stone. Its been a great and worthwhile learning curve for me and I look forward to playing around with Starters and oxygenating worts. Hopefully this time my Largers will not beat me! :D


Gavin C said:
Moving on is the best plan. On the questions



Yes



No



No



Yes
Click to expand...
 

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