understanding high pressure versus low pressure propane

I have 2 asco valves 8210g15 for inert air/gas/water - rated for 5 - 150 psi.

I am trying to understand if i need low pressure burners for these or high pressure burners. I like the cast iron jet burner (10 tips), but am not sure if need the low pressure or high pressure ones.

low pressure burner recommends high pressure regulator? - 6 INCH DIAMETER BURNER

also, is there any advantages or disadvantages to high vs. low pressure burners?

This will probably be a long and boring answer for some but I will try to help folks understand the terms High and Low pressure.

High pressure systems are usually above 1/2 PSI and up to 30 PSI as found in most of the portable cookers and fryers. This is an easy and cheap way to go for the makers of the cookers as the higher the gas pressure the greater the heat delivery for a given size burner. The common heating system gas valves are not usable at these pressures and there are no conversion parts to make them safely operate at greater than 1/2 PSI. The main option for safe burner operation at high pressure is to use 2 solenoid valves per burner and an electric ignition control module that lights pilot burner and turns off gas if pilot goes out to prevent explosion.

Low pressure systems have 2 pressure standards in use, 11" WC(water column) for propane systems, and 4" WC for residential Natural Gas systems. The gas furnace valves with standing pilots can be used on brew rigs for burner control instead of 2 solenoid valves with ignition module, and the cost is usually only 25% more than a single solenoid valve. For those that want the bling factor of electric ignition there are suitable gas furnace valves and igntion modules, or the 2 solenoid valves, 1 ignition module method.

Most of the gas burners popular in homebrewing can be operated at either high or low pressure if the correct gas jet is used, as stated before more pressure gives more fire with same size burner. While the multijet burners have their uses you need to know that the multijet burners are only happy at or near wide open and are sometimes used under the HLT. The 10" Banjo/Hurricane burners are able to operate over a wide range of settings and are usually used where flame adjustment is important like MLT and boil kettle applications.

Solenoids for burner control should be able to operate from 0 - 100 PSI as the solenoids that operate at 5 PSI - 100 PSI require at least 5 PSI pressure just to open, if used on low pressure they will not work. The popular solenoid valves in use on the brew rigs are the STC 2W160's as they are more reasonably priced than the equivalent ASCO valves. If you are going the solenoid valves and ignition module control route, the solenoids need to have coils built for 24 VAC to work with the ignition module.

That needs to be a sticky or in the WIKI, or WIKI before sticky.

so in my case, i'd be looking for high pressure regulator and high pressure burners?

Yes, here is a link to where I got mine.
http://www.agrisupply.com/product.asp?pn=30295&sid=&eid=
You only need 1 regulator to power three burners on a common manifold.

beerthirty said:

Yes, here is a link to where I got mine.
http://www.agrisupply.com/product.asp?pn=30295&sid=&eid=
You only need 1 regulator to power three burners on a common manifold.

Click to expand...

wow, $7.99 for a burner. haven't seem them that cheap before. 170,000 btu's is an awful lot. Do you see any scorching with them? I know the BG-14 on the website shows the 10" diameter 100,000 btu unit. thought that might be better. Lonnie Mac uses the 10 tip jet burners, and that's what i was originally thinking. i am using 3 keggles in my set up.

any places to buy everything i need to rig up a pilot for MLT and HLT?

The low pressure burner route will be a bit easier to build and the cost per burner will be about $100 for parts and 10" Banjo burners. If you have time and are willing to endure the auction sites you could save some money if not then here are a couple places to shop, burners AG supply, gas valve, pilot burner and thermocouple-PEX Supply.
PEX supply,
Gas valve part number Honeywell VR8300A3500
Pilot burner Q314A4586
thermocouple Q390A1061
Can be found at RV supply sites:
Low pressure LP regulator Marshall 299-00
Burners
AG supply BG-14 High Pressure Cast Iron Burner (will work well on low pressure) if gas jet is drilled out for low pressure LP

kladue said:

Gas valve part number Honeywell VR8300A3500

Click to expand...

does this part replace the asco valves? this is the part of the build that is going to complicate me the most

BucksPA said:

does this part replace the asco valves? this is the part of the build that is going to complicate me the most

Click to expand...

Yes the Honeywell valves will replace the ASCO valves in the gas system, piping will be essentially the same. There are some examples posted of Brutus systems with Honeywell gas valve controls to look at for reference if needed and if you need help in burner jet conversion there are replacement gas jets for low pressure available or you can drill out the high pressure ones that come with the burners.

propane
can i run 3 banjo high presure burners (at the same time)
with one regulator
and if i can (should get a 30lb regulator?)

What a great thread this is!

I have been pondering these same questions for some time. I have done a bit of research but when it comes to flammable and explosive gasses, I want to be sure I'm not going to be the next person in the Darwin Awards.

Thanks kladue for your advice.

I'm in the process of building a Brutus clone. I want the PID Temp controllers and semi-automated setup with solenoid controlled propane fired burners. The H209 burner Lonnie lists in the BYO mag isn't on the B3 website anymore, and I'd been eyeing the Banjo burner. Other versions like Lonnie used, folks have had leaks, and prices are nearly $100/burner, or half that on discount sites, but they don't state the thread size.

The Gas beam (or propane manifold) on the Brutus design I like and will probably use. The low pressure stuff, and posts I had read where folks were having problems with their burners when they tried to fire 2 at once made me reconsider if I really knew what I was up against in planning this project.

The ACSO valve fiasco about what is safe and what isn't safe is also a part of the problem. (from what I can tell the g074,75,76 are rated for fuel gas - different sized pipes for each of those BTW). B3 appears to use a RodgersWhite or Honeywell design from their photos, which integrates a pilot system and safety thermocouple which I like.

I would like to ask if anyone could instruct further on the drilling out the BG-14 Gas jet for use in a low pressure setup and how exactly to do that. This burner looks identical to the "Banjo" Burner.

Will the "performance" of using low pressure burners in terms of heating time or maximum BTU be affected by modifying the burners in this fashion?

In thinking through, this problem, is the oxygen or Air-orifice that sucks in Oxygen in the atmosphere what the real distinction is between "high" and "low" pressure burners? Seems counter-intuitive that a Lower pressure system would require a larger oxygen orifice. Am I mistaken in this conclusion?

Thanks again for all the great input.

TD

The high/low pressure approaches for "Brutus" burner setups are similar in construction but the lack of cheaper high pressure gas safety valves favors the low pressure route. With a garden hose analogy for the explanation of the effects of high vs. low pressure, a small nozzle opening gives a much faster moving stream than an open end of the hose. The faster the gas flows the greater the amount of air it can pull along with the gas and push through the burner. When you drop the gas pressure you have to make the gas jet opening larger to flow enough gas , but the amount of air and gas moved will be smaller and burner flow/output will be less. Starting with an oversize burner will make it possible to reduce the output when moving to lower gas pressure and still get the job done. Most of the burners are not operated at rated capacity because the flames would be halfway up the sides of the pot, most are usually operated at about 50% of maximum or less on high pressure. When you are ready to drill out the high pressure gas jet there are tables for jet sizing available for various pressures, start at about 60-80K btu's and increase jet size after test firing to make sure air shutter has some adjustment range left. Optimum flame should just have a hint of yellow at the tip of the flame, all blue is okay but more air means the heat is flowing away from the work faster and doing less heating.

Kladue-

Thanks for the explanation. That garden hose analogy makes sense.
To take this to a practical level, when you say that high pressure gas jets can be overdrilled for a low pressure application, what exactly does this mean? As relates to the Banjo burner, there appear to be hundreds of openings for flames. Are these the jets you're referring to? Does each need to be drilled out? Or is it where the LP connects to the base of the burner that needs to be drilled (not the threads I assume, but another internal part)?

Also, when shopping for the kind of burners Lonnie used, they appear to be offered in LP of NatGas versions. I assume the cast portions are the same, but the brass tips have different sized apertures or jets near the bases for mixing air, perhaps also for the jet diameter itself? Not sure, but an assumption. Continuing, the LP versions would have the high pressure, smaller apertures at the base for mixing air I assume, while the NG has larger holes? SO if we plan to use LP in low pressure configuration, I assume it would be the NatGas version we would buy (even though we are planning to use LP but in a low pressure configuration).

Last question. You said that burners usually don't reach their rated output as it would have flames breaking around the sides of the vessel. That being said, in keeping with a low pressure approach, would it be better to go for 200k style burners in hopes they would make 100k btu? Reason I ask is simple a lack of experience. I've only ever used my KingKooker burner which I think it at least 55k BTU.Took about 12 minutes to get 7.5 gallons boiling as best I can recall.

Again, can't stress enough how much the input is appreciated.

kladue said:

The low pressure burner route will be a bit easier to build and the cost per burner will be about $100 for parts and 10" Banjo burners. If you have time and are willing to endure the auction sites you could save some money if not then here are a couple places to shop, burners AG supply, gas valve, pilot burner and thermocouple-PEX Supply.
PEX supply,
Gas valve part number Honeywell VR8300A3500
Pilot burner Q314A4586
thermocouple Q390A1061
Can be found at RV supply sites:
Low pressure LP regulator Marshall 299-00
Burners
AG supply BG-14 High Pressure Cast Iron Burner (will work well on low pressure) if gas jet is drilled out for low pressure LP

Click to expand...

Using these Honeywell valves, with low pressure propane, can they be used as-is, or do they need a LP conversion kit? As I assume the LP means high pressure, I also assume the answer is no. I don't want to assume, which is why I'm asking!

Thanks!


TD

The gas jet question first, the brass fitting that screws into the cast iron burner is the "Gas Jet" for these type burners. The high pressure version has a small opening meant for high pressure gas, you can drill this out to a larger size for lower operating pressure. The main thing is start a bit smaller and work up in size after testing the burner to see if flame will burn clean with air shutter partialy closed. If you go too large either replace jet and start again or fill opening with solder and drill again to a smaller size.
As to the honeywell furnace valves, they normally come setup fo natural gas and regulate the pressure leaving the valve from 1-3.5" wc , the LP version has a stronger regulator spring and will control pressure at 8-13" wc. The conversion kit is a new heavier tension spring and adjuster cap which is meant to replace the lighter tension NG spring, a 10 minute job with a screwdriver. You can adjust the internal regulator to get the wide open fire size you want and it will hold that pressure.

kladue said:

The low pressure burner route will be a bit easier to build and the cost per burner will be about $100 for parts and 10" Banjo burners. If you have time and are willing to endure the auction sites you could save some money if not then here are a couple places to shop, burners AG supply, gas valve, pilot burner and thermocouple-PEX Supply.
PEX supply,
Gas valve part number Honeywell VR8300A3500
Pilot burner Q314A4586
thermocouple Q390A1061
Can be found at RV supply sites:
Low pressure LP regulator Marshall 299-00
Burners
AG supply BG-14 High Pressure Cast Iron Burner (will work well on low pressure) if gas jet is drilled out for low pressure LP

Click to expand...

Can you recommend a spark ignition setup? I think there were references to a Honeywell setup (and wiring diagram) in the ASCO RED HAT VALVE thread, I think that the links to the honeywell spark modules might have been on ebay auctions that are expired.

Reading these posts, old and new, has been very helpful and I appreciate all the knowledge that many people have in particular areas.

I think I've abandoned the ASCO valve, and am going to go with a honeywell setup like I think you had discussed with Korndog, and going with a spark ignition setup.

I think I am going to use regular black gas pipe (what's best for thread sealing?) instead of gas bar setup, and just bolt the pipe to the stand. Any particular schedule I'll need to get?

Ordered my 10 jet mini burners like on the BYO/Lonnie Brutus today. These appear to have a 3/8" NPT female inlet port. Is it acceptable to use reducers for gas plumbing or will that alter the pressure and velocity of gas adversely? I've not ordered any of the other parts yet except the burners.

Going to use a acetylene dual gauge regulator on the propane tank which was suggested in another thread to control pressure when using mulitple burners so you can run up to 3 at a time. It is possible that I might want to run all 3 at once ( to maybe do a double batch for instance and use up the last of my extract kits at the same time, but probably never run more than 2 at once)

Also would like to install a 3rd spark ignition setup to fire the boil kettle and avoid scorching my arms when lighting manually.

Can you recommend any method to install a master kill switch that shuts all the gas off and electric as well?


THANKS!

TD

I will try to answer the questions in order, the schedule 40 gas pipe and malleable fittings are appropriate for gas piping. Thread sealant can be either teflon base paste or permatext #2. Try not to use teflon tape as it can get into things it should not and cause problems.
As to a master kill switch, it could break the power source to the controls and if not all burners are solenoid controled then a single solenoid valve in the gas supply line to the pipe manifold.
Last the acetlyne regulator is nice but it may not have the required flow rate for what you are planning, it might be better to stick to the LP regulators available.
What operating pressure are the ring burners you puchased?, 1-10 PSI or low pressure (11" Wc.), if low pressure you could save some money by going with standing pilot furnace valves to fire the burners.

Thanks again-

I found a few regulators here:
http://http://www.suremarineservice.com/regulators.aspx

I have three burners which are supposed to be low pressure LP 100k burners (the 10 tip cast burners)

I see there several regulators of interest:

Marshall 299-00 Dual Stage 160kBTU ($21.66)
Hurricane single stage 0-10PSI adjustable 350kBTU ($14.88)
Fischer single stage 912-115 350kBTU ($43.18)

Only the HLT and MT burners are run by the Honeywell valves. BK is manual. (adjustable regulator might be nice for that).
Also curious why a 160kBTU would be recommended when total burner capacity is 300K.

Also all have 1/4 to 3/8 tapered pipe fittings on input and output. What would be best way to connect to my 1/2" NPT pipe manifold ? Was planning to connect to a ball valve on the input side, so I assume I'l need some tubing (where to source?) that is 3/8" tapered pipe to 1/2 NPT?

ANy advice?

TD

The possibility of all three burners running at full output at the same time is usually very small, 2 low pressure burners at same time is not a problem as both are usually not at full output at same time.

Excellent point!

So which of the above regulators would be "best" then? Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) to having the adjustable PSI or is the two stage Marshall the better regulator, for use in the three burner setup I described?


Also was wondering about where to get the hose/tubing and connectors for connecting the regulator to the propane cylinder AND to the 1/2" NPT pipe that will supply my setup.

Thanks again Kladue for all your knowledge and help! If you have a minute, please see this thread:
http://https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/spark-ignition-brutus-67922/index9.html

Need to find a source for the spark wires for the spark ignition setup...

Thanks!

TD

The Marshall 290 with POL connector for Cylinder end and 3/8" FNPT outlet for a hose fitting, try a local RV parts house for one, and look for a 3/8" hose with 3/8" NPT ends for the regulator to pipe manifold connection. A 1/2" x 3/8" threaded bushing would increase hose thread size to 1/2" for connection to the pipe gas manifold on your rig.
Wire core ignition wire (spark plug cable) available from an auto parts store, ask for spark plug wire for a small engine (wire core) not an automotive application(carbon core) and you should be able to buy it by the foot, and while there get the terminals and boots to finish the ends. A little bit of dish detergent on the wire makes it a lot easier to slide the boots over the wire when assembling the ignition wire and crimp on terminals on the ends.

Thanks tons!

I found this source for spark plug wire (local stores search was futile)....
Spark Plug Wire - two 10 foot runs http://www.mfgsupply.com/m/c/24-8776.html
Boots - http://www.mfgsupply.com/m/c/24-1285.html

I think I probably already have the female insulated spade terminals for connecting to spark unit.

I'll check the local RV shop today for the regulator setup.

RH

The wire looks to be perfect for the job, the regulator should be a shelf item at a RV supply house.

As far as fitting the propane parts together, would it be acceptable to just take a pipe nipple into the regulator outlet and connect that to my manifold directly without the flex hose? If so, can I mount the regulator horizontally or must it be vertical with outlet pointed down (which would prevent any moisture from entering the vent)?

Thanks again!

TD

Project is nearing an end, and should be welded out by week's end.

The regulator can be mounted to the end of the gas manifold, just make sure the regulator will not be bumped into and broken off. The caution about mounting with vent down is for outdoor use where water can get into the vent and cause trouble.

What's the difference between the Marshall 290 and Marshall 299 regulators? I've seen them mentioned here, but it almost seems as though they're being used interchangeably.

They are the same regulator body and flow, the cover vent on the 299 is 90 degrees from center line for horizontal mounting with vent down.

I may have missed something here, so please forgive if this has been answered. If I have the round cast iron low pressure burner and low pressure regulator, is there a manual control valve I can use that permits me to turn down the flame on the brew kettle? When I tried a couple of different ball valves the flame turns yellow and doesn't seem to adjust appropriately. It works well full open, but I can't seem to adjust the gas output enough to prevent a boil over.

Kladue-
I am using the BG-14 Banjo burners on my rig. The HLT and MLT will be controlled with Honeywell valves, pilot, and thurmocouplers. The BK will be manually operated. From what I read in this post I need to use a low pressure regulator and drill the burner jets on the HLT & MLT burners. My question is: is there any value to leaving the BK burner as a high pressure burner and adding a low pressure regulator downstream of the gas manifold but before each of the valves? This would add a regulator but I'm thinking it would make the BK burner burn hotter faster. Does that make sense or should I just add the regulator upstream of the manifold and make all the burners low pressure?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Clay

Clay, run a low pressure 2-stage regulator in front of the Honeywell valves. You will want the higher output for getting the BK up to boil in a reasonable time.

Thanks for the quick response Hoppy! That is what I was thinking. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Cheers!

How is your build coming 2NobleDogs?

I bought the same burners to replace my mini ring 10 jet burners - they kept leaking through the actual cast iron ring, and also at the point where the minijets were drilled.

I am having some plumbing issues with mine as far as the retrofit, since the mini ring uses 3/8 MPT and the Banjo I believe uses a 1/4" Orifice fitting whatever that's supposed to be. I got a couple with an attached valve but opposite the 1/4" MPT is a flare fitting.
Any advice on the best way to connect these Banjo type burners to my existing 1/2" flex line supply? I believe mine are constructed for low pressure LPG or NG with different orifice used depending on which you are using. So I don't believe I would need to drill out the holes.
Also for 10 Gallon batches, what might be another burner to consider for more boil kettle power, as these are not yet fully installed?

TD

Tricky - The Banjo burner comes with a 3/8 Flare x 1/4 MPT with a Propane size orifice (hole) and unless they were bought with NG orifices explicitly, they WILL NOT work with propane.
The flex Lines need to be changed out to 3/8 flare or 1/2 male flare x 3/8 female flare bushing
Another alternative is to order hoses from us

Tricky- I'm not sure of the details of your rig. But, mine goes like this:

1/2" gas valve stepped down to a 1/4" flared end into a low pressure regulator. 3/8" coming out of the regulator stepped up to a 1/2" flared end into the flex hose. The hose connects to a 1/2 flare into the honeywell valve. I use a 1/2"x3/8" elbow coming out of the honeywell into another flex hose which connects to the 3/8" jet into the burner. Keep in mind that the banjo burners (like mine) are "high" pressure burners. So, if you are running as a high pressure burner you will need a high pressure regulator. If you are running it as a low pressure burner you will need to drill the orifice on your jet and use a low pressure regulator. Not sure if I answered your question or not. Let me know if you need close up pics.



BTW- My rig is complete now. I ran it through a wet run today and will be brewing my first batch on it tomorrow!

Any problems with your tank freezing with that setup? I had my first experience with that on Christmas while trying fry a turkey. It's never happened before with that fryer and it was just the regulator that was freezing. I'm thinking that it was actually a problem with the tank being a little overfilled. I had them filled the day before at a fill station rather than swapping them out.

I posted this in another thread but didn't really get a response. I didn't think that low pressure vs high pressure caused that significant a loss in btu's. The orifice on a low pressure burner is larger allowing more gas through at a slower pace (lower pressure). Assuming that your air/gas ratio were the same on a low pressure vs high pressure setup and the gas flow rates were the same by volume, you would get the same btu or heat output in the end.

NobleDogs-

let me know how yours works. I've got to revise my burners due to the crummy ones I had initially selected started to leak.

It looks like you've got a high pressure propane manifold Tee'd off to your Boil Kettle with manual shut-off valve. Can you tell me more about the plumbing and fittings you've used? Specifically how you've plumbed the burner orifice. I'm having a hard time finding fittings.

How tall is the flame height on the high pressure versus low pressure burners?

What valves are you using for the HLT & MT burners? is the smaller copper coloerd line for a standing pilot? if so, can you show my where you mounted on the burner ass'y?

As for my burners, they are all Low Pressure LPG, getting some appropriate Orifices as I had initially forgot to buy them. Bought from Derrin (Brewers Hardware).

Thanks and have fun with your new rig!

TD
TD

Tricky-
My BK uses the high pressure orifice that came with the burner. It connected to the manual valve with a SS gas logs hose that has a 3/8 female fitting on both ends. You will need a 3/8 flared x 1/2" adapter to connect it to the 1/2 manual valve. The HLT and MT are both low pressure so I used this orifice http://www.brewershardware.com/Valve-and-LPG-Orifice-for-BURN10.html[/URL (It sounds like you already have these). Connected these to the gas valve using a 3/8 gas log hose and a 3/8 flared x 1/2 brass elbow. The yellow hoses are typical appliance hoses you can get from lowes or HD. These hoses come with fittings and the safety valve. Because my manifold is set up for high pressure I had to use 2 low pressure regulators for the HLT & MT. If you are going to plumb your similarly I would recommend that you pick up all the parts you know you will need (i.e. hoses, valves, burners, and regulators) and then determine what fittings are needed to make all the connections. That's basically what I did. I was able to find all my fittings at a local Ace Hardware store. I've found they typically have a better selection.

The valves, thermocoupler and pilot light are:

[URL="http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-VR8200A2132-1-2-24-Vac-Standing-Pilot-Gas-Valve-11588000-p"]http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-VR8200A2132-1-2-24-Vac-Standing-Pilot-Gas-Valve-11588000-p

Q390A1046 - Honeywell Q390A1046 - 24" Thermocouple

Q314A4586 - Honeywell Q314A4586 - Honeywell Q314A4586 Pilot Burner

I mounted the pilot directly to the burner by straightening the bracket and using self tapping screws. I'll post a picture when I get a chance.

Check out this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-new-brew-system-brutus-10-some-nice-modifications-172927/ this guy did a great job on documenting his entire build. this is where I got most of the info for my build. Good luck with things and let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Clay

We carry the hoses...


NobleDog forgot to list the pilot tubing you will need.

oh yeah...the copper tubing is 1/4" tubing that you can pick up at Lowes/HD. Sorry.

I thought the orifice was 1/4", not 3/8"

I thanks to one hoppy guy about his gas hose - what is it made of? What is the max temp tolerance? 3/8" female flare fittings? What length are these hoses?

Anyway, I think I might leave my BK as low pressure to avoid having to MOD the manifold. I can always do that later if takes too long to bring to boil.

I have similar Honeywell valves (1/2"), but I have spark ignition setup so I am fine with that. Good idea on bending the brackets. Where did you mount them to the burner though?

You have any link on your gas logs hoses or 3/8 to 1/2" adapters?

TD