How mash tun infusion temperatures work.

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Bobby_M

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I've noticed quite a few questions about strike temps, MLT preheating, and general complaints about some coolers not living up to temp holding expectations. Rather than repeat some of the same thing over and over, I wanted to spend a little time writing some of this stuff out in detail and providing what I hope are a few clear illustrations.
First, the basic idea here is that when you brew partial mash or all grain, you have to be concerned about mash temps and it's not easy because heat moves from your water to the grain and also from your water/mash to the mash tun.

Water to Grain
The temp equalization between strike water and grain is somewhat easy because the factors are water volume/temp and grain weight/temp. I'm not going to reference the formula for this because 95% of us use 20-dollar software or free web apps to do this for us. Just for example's sake, at 1.5qts/lb and assuming room temp grain, the strike water has to be about 12F higher than the desired rest temp.

Water/Mash to MLT
The heat lost to the the mash tun is much harder to figure out with a formula. The deciding factor is the heat capacity of the mash tun. It’s a concept that is well over my head, and I assume most brewers.
There are a few ways to deal with this including compensating with higher strike temps based on calculated/estimated heat capacity, preheating (or direct firing) the tun to remove this effect, and various variations of those.
Let’s look at predicted strike temp overshoot first. Software like Beersmith seems to make some calculations based on the weight of the tun and will be factored when you select the “compensate for equipment” option. I’m not sure how accurate this method is.
Beertoolspro uses user-input calibration data to make predictions. I have gone through the steps required and have found it is pretty accurate. More info on that can be seen in a two part videos below:




If you skip the videos, the basic idea is that you put a fixed amount of water into the tun and observe and measure heat loss over a specific time. The data is used to calculate the heat capacity of the vessel. I also note that you essentially erase the effects of heat capacity if you actually heat your strike water in a direct fire mash vessel. The videos above deal with Beer Tools Pro because that's what I use, but I know a LOT of people use beersmith. Setting up the equipment parameters is shown in a video here http://www.beersmith.com/Equipment/index.htm.

Let’s get realistic. Most brewers starting out don’t want to go through calibration steps. Let’s look at preheating your tun with water as an alternative to figuring everything out ahead of time. Some folks advocate preheating with a small volume of boiling water but it seems wasteful. You’ll be putting strike water in there anyway so I much prefer to overheat the strike to a point where the cooler will take all the heat it wants. I’ve put two drawings together to illustrate how the heat moves during initial infusion and dough in.

coolertemps1.jpg


The result is that you might come up a little low on your mash temp and blame the software for giving you a bad strike number or you might blame the cooler for poor performance. One way to compensate is to make sure you go in hot with the strike water and make sure the cooler walls get a chance to take all the heat, even up at the levels the mash will eventually contact once the grain is in.

coolertemps2.jpg


Of course, the temp that you need to heat your strike water to is directly based on the temp of the cooler, but the good new is that if you go in too hot, you can just wait until the temp drops. Alternatively, If you rely on pre-calculation and dough in, missing is more critical because enzymes are being affected while you compensate. Also, it will expose enzymes to a much higher temp for the short term before the cooler and grain pulls the temp down.

Again, the temp you’re waiting for after #4 is the one that ONLY compensates for the grain temp and not the cooler. If you do this step correctly, the cooler should take no more heat and the only heat loss you will notice is what the cooler loses to the outside air. This should be about 1-2F depending on ambient temps.

Let me know if anyone has any input and I'll try to incorporate it here so we can refer questions about mash tun heat loss and strike temps here instead of retyping it all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
All that I would sya is that you have to get to know your system. I for one based on my mash in about 15 minutes ago preheat the tun with 10 qts of 180 degree water while I'm heating up the strike water. I use the water that comes out for the sparge eventually. For the 150 degree temp I heated to 167 degrees and it settled at 151 which is close enough for me. This is with a 10 gallon cooler my 3 brew with it the first couple tries where either way to high or to low.
When I was using a 5 gallon cooler I had to strike 15 degrees hot and preheated the tun
Thanks for writing this up Bobby
 
hmmmm.. i think i will definately have to try this..

Since i have my new e-keggle i have ended with my mash about 15-20 degrees low, caused by transfer by tube and/or bucket.
I used to just dump my strikewater heated up in my turkey-fryer into my cooler and always was spot on with what beersmith told me.

thanks, bobby
 
All that I would sya is that you have to get to know your system. I for one based on my mash in about 15 minutes ago preheat the tun with 10 qts of 180 degree water while I'm heating up the strike water. I use the water that comes out for the sparge eventually. For the 150 degree temp I heated to 167 degrees and it settled at 151 which is close enough for me. This is with a 10 gallon cooler my 3 brew with it the first couple tries where either way to high or to low.
When I was using a 5 gallon cooler I had to strike 15 degrees hot and preheated the tun
Thanks for writing this up Bobby

I understand that separate preheating works in practice but I want to make sure I understand the benefit. I'm guessing it is simply to save a few minutes since my suggested method does delay dough in by 5-10 minutes.
 
Thanks for the info, this comes from someone who forgot to preheat the mash tun yesterday and instead of mashing at 152, i mashed at 148. And i agree with the "get to know your system" mantra, first two batches on my new brew stand were not so hot.
 
Nice write up! I'm a big fan of the "preheat the cooler with slightly hotter strike water" method. Didn't think to tip it like that though - thanks for the tip!

I will mention that I had issues with heat loss on my first couple attempts. It turned out I was losing a lot of heat through the lid - where it meets the cooler to be exact. So I cut a piece of 2" stiff insulation board to fit tight in the cooler, just under the original lid which I added weather stripping to as well. Now I lose less than 1 degree over 60 min.
 
I do the old "mix and match" method and have gotten so used to it that I can hit my mash temp urually in under 5 minutes. What I do is to heat a quantity of water to above what the strike water temp says, and add some to the MLT and close the lid for a few minutes. I usually use a slight bit less that what Beersmith calls for. Once the cooler stabilizes in temperature (I never rocked the cooler to warm the entire interior...until now) I then add the grains. I keep a pitcher of extra hot water handy and also a pitcher of cold water handy. If my mash temp is off by a few degrees, I simply mix and match hot or cold water, stir, close the lid and let stabilize, and them measure the resulting temp.

I really like this explaination Bobby (as always very well done), and think this procedure will help hit the mash temp much closer the first time with less juggling additional water additions to hit adjust to the right temp. Well done!
 
My hot water is close to 140 degrees. I have been filling up my 10 Gallon cooler with that water just as I put my Strike water on the stove to heat up. Dump it out right before adding Strike water to it.

I lose 13 degrees on the average batch of 11-12 pounds of grain.
 
Also, it will expose enzymes to a much higher temp for the short term before the cooler and grain pulls the temp down.


How detrimental is exposing the grain to these higher temps while waiting to get it down to the target mash temp? How quickly do the enzymes denature?

In my first 2 mashes I have either come in low or seen my temp drop over the mash because the cooler is absorbing the heat.

So In my last mash, I used extra hot water to make sure I would not come in under temp. After I doughed in, it was still a bit hot (like 5-10 degrees above my target) so I used a few ice cubes and stirred it a bit to bring it down to the target temp.

With just a bit of ice it's easy to drop the temp to exactly where you want it.
 
Another benefit of no-sparge. Plugging in nearly the complete boil volume into Beersmith has provided me dead-nuts on strike temperatures. Pumping that volume up to the MLT to preheat also heats the sidewalls of the cooler. I've been really pleased with the strike water calculations in Beersmith with my system.
 
Want to add in my experience here...

I used a 5 gal round cooler from Home Depot for my mlt right now, and with my equipment dials in through BeerSmith I have been able to consistently hit my desired mash temp within +/- 1F, which is probably as close as most of us can hope for with our mostly accurate measurment tools. I drop at most 2F over a 60min mash, though I've only seen that once and I think my readings were off. I generally see less than 1F drop.

I don't preheat my tun and use BeerSmith's no preheat check box with the aforementioned excellent results. It might be worth mentioning I also don't add my strike water first. I add up to 1/3 or my grain, followed by 1/3 of my strike water, give it a quick stir then dump in the rest of the grain and then the rest of the water.

I would reason that the grain/water mix is much better at keeping it's heat than the water alone, and while the cooler will still absorb some of the heat radiated from the mash, it will be a much slower process to reach the same equilibrium as the cooler with water alone. I'll be moving to a much bigger tun in the near future so it will be interesting to see if my method stays valid or is just a fuction of the smaller tun.
 
I followed Bobby's stike water first suggestion for my first AG brew this past weekend and it worked well. I like the tipping idea. Thanks!

:mug:
 
Let me know if anyone has any input and I'll try to incorporate it here so we can refer questions about mash tun heat loss and strike temps here instead of retyping it all.

Bobby,

I've had as good of luck vigorously stirring the strike water (i.e. splashing up against the sides of the cooler) as the tipping method. The tipping method is probably more efficient, but the splashing method has worked for me (especially since I tend to strike at least 1-2* higher than planned - I'd rather overshoot and stir a little longer than undershoot (I'm one of the ~5% too lazy for software :D)
 
Great write up Bobby, like all of yours. I’ve learned a lot from reading them. I’m getting ready to do my first AG and I’m sure this will assist me hitting my temps.
 
Want to add in my experience here...

I used a 5 gal round cooler from Home Depot for my mlt right now, and with my equipment dials in through BeerSmith I have been able to consistently hit my desired mash temp within +/- 1F, which is probably as close as most of us can hope for with our mostly accurate measurment tools. I drop at most 2F over a 60min mash, though I've only seen that once and I think my readings were off. I generally see less than 1F drop.

I don't preheat my tun and use BeerSmith's no preheat check box with the aforementioned excellent results. It might be worth mentioning I also don't add my strike water first. I add up to 1/3 or my grain, followed by 1/3 of my strike water, give it a quick stir then dump in the rest of the grain and then the rest of the water.

I would reason that the grain/water mix is much better at keeping it's heat than the water alone, and while the cooler will still absorb some of the heat radiated from the mash, it will be a much slower process to reach the same equilibrium as the cooler with water alone. I'll be moving to a much bigger tun in the near future so it will be interesting to see if my method stays valid or is just a fuction of the smaller tun.

I read this whole thing before I even looked at who posted it and where you were based and thought, "gotta be Texas or San Diego". You must store your tun in a 110F garage to have no losses to the cooler. Are you setting your grain temp in beersmith to actual or is it listed at 60F? You've got to be compensating in some way otherwise a mash tun preheat should cause you to miss high on your equalized mash temp. I'm sorta head scratching on this one.

edit: now that I reread your post, I'm not completely clear if you mean that you have beersmith figuring for losses or not.
 
I read this whole thing before I even looked at who posted it and where you were based and thought, "gotta be Texas or San Diego". You must store your tun in a 110F garage to have no losses to the cooler. Are you setting your grain temp in beersmith to actual or is it listed at 60F? You've got to be compensating in some way otherwise a mash tun preheat should cause you to miss high on your equalized mash temp. I'm sorta head scratching on this one.

edit: now that I reread your post, I'm not completely clear if you mean that you have beersmith figuring for losses or not.

I do have BeerSmith compensating for not preheating. Since I'm in San Diego, I can set my grain temp in BeerSmith to be 72F and have it pretty close all year round. I'm wondering if the relatively small size of the cooler helps minimise my heat loss, I have no garage and even if I did it certainly wouldn't get to 110F in there at this time of year. BeerSmith's correction factors have to account for it. I went through figuring out all the numbers for weight and such as best I could when I first got the program, so maybe that helped?
 
I understand that separate preheating works in practice but I want to make sure I understand the benefit. I'm guessing it is simply to save a few minutes since my suggested method does delay dough in by 5-10 minutes.

I tried the hotter strike water to compensate for heat going to the mash tun a few times. I could never get it right and ended up over or under shooting. Since I started pre heating with a gallon or so of pre sparge water heated to 170 or so I have been really consistent with my temps. I brew quite a few 1.5 gallon test batches I might try a couple of these methods to see if I can dial it in. Worst thing that can happen is a malty blonde :d
 
I do have BeerSmith compensating for not preheating. Since I'm in San Diego, I can set my grain temp in BeerSmith to be 72F and have it pretty close all year round. I'm wondering if the relatively small size of the cooler helps minimise my heat loss, I have no garage and even if I did it certainly wouldn't get to 110F in there at this time of year. BeerSmith's correction factors have to account for it. I went through figuring out all the numbers for weight and such as best I could when I first got the program, so maybe that helped?

Ok, that makes sense. I'm not sure if I was clear in the original post that I agree 100% that the software does a pretty good job of telling you how much more heat you need to compensate for tun absorption.

The initial calibration steps I performed for BTP had my next batch undershot by 2F. I was cursing because I felt like the effort was wasted but then I realized I had the ambient temp set to 60F in the recipe file when it was really around 48F in the garage that day. I set it correctly the next time and it was dead on.

I was hoping this thread would make newer all grain brewers aware of what's actually happening and how you can anticipate it. I think there are still more people out there preheating their tun than letting software compensate but there are probably 10 other methods people have worked out through trial and error. It's all good if it works. The method I dislike the most is just winging it and standing by with a bucket of ice and boiling water.
 
I have attenuation problems and I believe it is due to overheating. After a bunch of hit or miss AG batches, I'm still confused on temps.

At what temp should one dough in at to prevent scorching the grain and at what temp should the sparge water be to fix the same problem? I realize sparge temp varies but what normally is the temp and at what temperature do you want to raise the grain bed to before the first runnings?
 
Ok, that makes sense. I'm not sure if I was clear in the original post that I agree 100% that the software does a pretty good job of telling you how much more heat you need to compensate for tun absorption.

The initial calibration steps I performed for BTP had my next batch undershot by 2F. I was cursing because I felt like the effort was wasted but then I realized I had the ambient temp set to 60F in the recipe file when it was really around 48F in the garage that day. I set it correctly the next time and it was dead on.

I was hoping this thread would make newer all grain brewers aware of what's actually happening and how you can anticipate it. I think there are still more people out there preheating their tun than letting software compensate but there are probably 10 other methods people have worked out through trial and error. It's all good if it works. The method I dislike the most is just winging it and standing by with a bucket of ice and boiling water.

The initial set up on the software can be a bit daunting, but once it's dialed in it's like magic :) I'm going to be building a new, much larger MLT with probably the 70qt Coleman Xtreme, it'll be an interesting test to see how well I do with that set up.

One thing of note on your pictures... the entire sidewalls of the cooler will absorb heat, not just where it contacts with the water or mash. The interior temp is going to be increased in the headspace as well, it will just not be quite as hot as the mash.

I have attenuation problems and I believe it is due to overheating. After a bunch of hit or miss AG batches, I'm still confused on temps.

At what temp should one dough in at to prevent scorching the grain and at what temp should the sparge water be to fix the same problem? I realize sparge temp varies but what normally is the temp and at what temperature do you want to raise the grain bed to before the first runnings?

Attenuation issues quite possibly meaning you're mashing too hot, you want to generally be in the 150-158 range, where mashing at 158 will give fuller body and lower attenuation and mashing at 150 will give a light body and usually good attenuation (yeast dependent).

You can't scorch the grain with strike water for your mash or sparge water, it's just not hot enough. I heat my sparge water (for batch sparging) to 180-185F. The concern with temp and grain is tannin extraction, you go too hot and you extract tannins. There is another factor contributing to tannin extraction (possible more important than temp), and that is pH. Unless the water you're using is all wonky, you shouldn't have much of an issue with pH, but you can get pH strips and 5.2 buffer to help in that department... but that's for another thread :)
 
Bobby M,

Thanks for the suggestion....I want to emply this technique in my next batch but I have a couple clarifying questions...I use Beersmith...my MLT is a 10gal round/orange Home Depot converted cooler...the example I plugged into Beersmith was an attempt to calculate 13.5 lbs grain with a target of 153F...in Beersmith, as you know, I can "adjust temp for equipment"...first, in those details, do I enter my strike temp as my "mash tun temp" if I plan to over heat the water and let the MLT come down to temp? second, should I adjust my "mash tun specific heat" to 0.000 or leave it at the 0.300 value pre-set for plastic (there is a variance of about 1/2 degree one way or the other)? third, should I leave the "adjust temp for equipment" box checked?

If I have it all setup correctly, is it accurate that grain along with absorb approx. 12F?

Thx,
JoMaMa
 
The amount of heat lost to the grain will depend on the water/grain ratio and the temp of the grain but yes, 12F sounds about right. If you're going to go through the overheating method of preheat, you just tell Beersmith not to adjust for equipment.
 
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