IS 30A enough for my control panel or am I too close?

Doing some math and realizing that a 30A 2-pole service may not be enough for the control panel of my 100% electric brewery. I think the rule is that you shouldn't load a circuit more than 80% which would be 24A max on a 30A line. (right?)

I plan on running the following through the control panel:

- One 5500W/240V element at a time: 23A
- Two 120V March 809 pumps (both running at the same time in some instances): 1.2A each so 2.4A total
- Various 120V pilot lights, PIDs, some gauges possibly, etc: Neglible current.

So a max of ~25.4 amps which is above the 'recommended' 24A on a 30A circuit. How annoying. It's so close that it's probably ok but I should probably go for a 40 or even a 50A service (parts seem more common for 50A) as I'm likely forgetting something right? If I ever want to go RIMS too with an extra element on while the HLT element is on, I'd be screwed.

I'm torn because I would really like to go with a 30A service so that I can be able to brew elsewhere if I need to (we have brew meets once and a while where everyone gets together to brew). 30A would allow me to use a dryer outlet. A separate GFI would of course be needed.

Notes:

I do have some other GFI'ed regular 120V/15A utility outlets for other things that I'll be using in the brewery (drill for crushing grain, lighting, etc). The 30A is strictly for the control panel.

The control panel will have a switch in it to have either the BK or HLT element on, never both at the same time. Otherwise I'd need a 60-70A+ circuit since both BK and HLT have 5500W elements.


Thoughts?

Kal

You can just go to the next size breaker and wire size. Breakers are used to protect the wire in case of an overload so going to 50 amps would be fine. Look in the electrical code for wire big enough to handle 50 amps going to your outlet. If you are ever going to have 2 elements on at the same time then 100 amp breakers and suitable wire would be needed.

40A= #8's

50A= #6's

CU wire o'course.

I'm guessing you'll find that it will be cheaper to just run a separate circuit for your 120v stuff than go up to 40 or 50a gfci on your 240v. Have you found a 30a 240v gfci for your panel? I found it was cheaper to buy a 60a spa box than get a 240v gfci for the box in my garage, a Cutler Hammer...

Just a pet peeve, but 240 is single phase. Are you planning on doing the work yourself?

I would sugest getting a 60 amp two pole disconect(so you can cut power right away if you need to) and going into a regular small breaker box (8-12 spaces) then comming off to do your regular outlets with a 15 amp piggy back cicut breaker(it has two 15 amp switches in it for two circuts off a 15 amp two-pole, then go to 2 double pulg with GFCI in each in case of flying water) that leaves you 45 amps to play with for your pumps and your elements. I do HVAC and wire AC units all the time, as well as some other regular eletrical work. This is code. Dont quote me on that because i dont live where you do. but it will be safe for what you want to do, only down side is 60amps is #4 wire and i would normally jump off a bridge then run #4 wire because its a ***** to manuver. Good luck and be careful

Cheers

somecallmetim said:

I'm guessing you'll find that it will be cheaper to just run a separate circuit for your 120v stuff than go up to 40 or 50a gfci on your 240v.

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Correct. I've already got a 120v/15A power to the room so that'll be used for most things. Most of the control panel power is for the element(s). I'll run the PIDs and pumps off it too of course but everything else will be a separate line.

Have you found a 30a 240v gfci for your panel? I found it was cheaper to buy a 60a spa box than get a 240v gfci for the box in my garage, a Cutler Hammer...

Click to expand...

Nope - I'm thinking 30A is too low so I'm bidding on some new 40 or 50A 2-pole GFI breakers on ebay right now.

Just a pet peeve, but 240 is single phase. Are you planning on doing the work yourself?

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Sorry - good point. I meant to say '2 pole'. (fixed). And yes, I'll do the work myself and possibly get an electrician to certify it to keep the wife happy.

Kal

kal said:

Sorry - good point. I meant to say '2 pole'. (fixed). And yes, I'll do the work myself and possibly get an electrician to certify it to keep the wife happy.

Kal

Click to expand...

That's cool, you definitely seem to be asking all the right questions. FWIW I really like being able to run my HLT & Kettle at the same time. We often brew double batches & it saves us a fair amount of time to mash the second during the first boil...

BrewinJack said:

I would sugest getting a 60 amp two pole disconect(so you can cut power right away if you need to)...

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I don't need 60A I think. 40A is enough (30A is close). I already have a 15A line into the room for the "extra stuff".

So what do you mean by "disconnect"? Do you mean a cartridge style safety switch like this?:



Adding something like that between the GFI breaker and the brewing control panel is in the plans. I was going to use it to power on/off the control panel. Hopefully this is what you mean?

... and going into a regular small breaker box (8-12 spaces) then comming off to do your regular outlets with a 15 amp piggy back cicut breaker(it has two 15 amp switches in it for two circuts off a 15 amp two-pole, then go to 2 double pulg with GFCI in each in case of flying water) that leaves you 45 amps to play with for your pumps and your elements.

Click to expand...

That's a good idea, but I already have enough power in the room for the 'regular' stuff and these existing circuits are also already GFI protected. I just need to get just over 30A to my brewing control panel to drive mainly the elements.

If I didn't have any power at all in the room I do like your idea which I think is the following (correct me if I'm wrong):

GFI breaker in the main panel -> ?/4 wire -> safety switch in the room -> short run of ?/4wire -> 8-12 space sub-panel breaker box to do one 1-pole 15A line (120v) and a 'big' 40A 2-pole line for the control panel (240v).

Since I don't need the extra 15A line(s) I was going to simply come out of the safety switch directly into a little NEMA box with a 40 or 50A 4-wire outlet for the control panel.

So similar to how an electric stove/range is wired up today in any house but with some extras like the GFI and safety switch like this:

50A GFI Breaker -> 6/4 wire -> safety switch -> 6/4 wire -> 4-wire range outlet in a nice protected box.

I would then plug my brew control panel into that range outlet. The safety switch is there as a power switch. I'll have an emergency "all kill" mushroom style pushbutton on the control panel too.

Kal

BrewinJack said:

only down side is 60amps is #4 wire and i would normally jump off a bridge then run #4 wire because its a ***** to manuver.

Click to expand...

Can you run 2 wires with a smaller gauge than #4, and just connect them at each end....or is that a major no no?

somecallmetim said:

That's cool, you definitely seem to be asking all the right questions. FWIW I really like being able to run my HLT & Kettle at the same time. We often brew double batches & it saves us a fair amount of time to mash the second during the first boil...

Click to expand...

I hear ya. That's the only thing (as far as I can tell) that I won't be able to do. Hopefully I'm not missing anything else.

I'd have to put in a 60A GFI breaker and the appropriate wiring if I wanted to to run both elements at once. I just don't see myself doing that. A 60A breaker would *JUST* get to me to 80% circuit utilization too of both elements were going along with both pumps. If I planned on RIMS in the future I should go with a 70 (or 80) amp GFI. That's getting into crazy wire size.

To make sure that only one element is one at once, I'm planning on a 3-way switch to either have the HLT element on, the BK element on, or both off. The switch will be on the control (low voltage) side of the SSRs. This way only one SSR can be firing at once unless one goes defective and gets stuck on. Anyone think this is concern?

I definitely don't want to wire up two completely independant SSR override switches like I see done sometimes and them make the mistake one day of turning one element on before remembering to turn the other one off. I know the breaker *should* pop but systems should be designed to avoid using a breaker as a means of control. That's just not right. IMHO, assuming the user always hits the right switches in the right order is not the proper way to design something. You have to make sure that the control layouts only allow correct usage.

Kal

Gregredic said:

Can you run 2 wires with a smaller gauge than #4, and just connect them at each end....or is that a major no no?

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I'm no electrician, but I would say that that's a no-no. If one of the wires was to 'detach', the other would carry 100% of the current instead of 50% and could easily overheat causing a fire. Not good. With a single wire, it'll simply stop working.

The savings likely isn't there either as you need twice the length of wiring.

Kal

u can parralell wires for sure... lots of wire u buy is stranded... i.e. smaller wires bunched together... just make sure the wires are the same length.
if you were to get it inspected then you'd fail, because you're not supposed to double lug wires... but you won't risk burning anything up thats for sure... you really shouldn't worry about the 80% rule too much.. that's just NEC bs used to enforce the dreaded "possible fire hazzards from electricity"... i work in buildings that have very primative wiring and it completely defy's what's "code".. i promise u could get away with 10 gauge wire on 25.4 amps

GranillaNutz said:

you really shouldn't worry about the 80% rule too much.. that's just NEC bs used to enforce the dreaded "possible fire hazzards from electricity"... i work in buildings that have very primative wiring and it completely defy's what's "code".. i promise u could get away with 10 gauge wire on 25.4 amps

Click to expand...

Really? Going 30A would certainly make things easier.

Kal

Gregredic said:

Can you run 2 wires with a smaller gauge than #4, and just connect them at each end....or is that a major no no?

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Only 1/0 and larger wire can be "legally" used in parallel, 310-4 NEC.
I should not of posted this as I will catch hell as i'm telling you what is by code. This reply is to not offend anyone, like one forum members
recent reply calling me a "visitor".

kal said:

I don't need 60A I think. 40A is enough (30A is close). I already have a 15A line into the room for the "extra stuff".

So what do you mean by "disconnect"? Do you mean a cartridge style safety switch like this?:


I would then plug my brew control panel into that range outlet. The safety switch is there as a power switch. I'll have an emergency "all kill" mushroom style pushbutton on the control panel too.

Kal

Click to expand...

On your disconnect you do not need a "cartridge" that is a fused disconnect.
If you want you can just use a disconnect as a fused one will cost you more money and you already have breaker protection ahead of the disconnect.

kal said:

I don't need 60A I think. 40A is enough (30A is close).

I would then plug my brew control panel into that range outlet. The safety switch is there as a power switch. I'll have an emergency "all kill" mushroom style pushbutton on the control panel too.

Kal

Click to expand...

KAL; if you can go for a 40 amp and feed with #8 cord you would not have to add wall plug circuits creating a wiring mess and power coming from different sources.

As for you ""all kill" mushroom style pushbutton on the control panel too", a PANIC BUTTON?
Your into a srart/stop to control a magnetic contactor, that is going to cost you some more money. You'll also need a start and a panic button to deenergize the magnetic contactor. Be sure to check the coil voltage on the contactor. Old lighting magnetic contactors come in handy for times like this. I'm called a "Pack Rat" for a reason over the years.
A magnetic motor starter would work also as long as your within the ratings of the contacts, inductive vs resistive load.
Check around your area for a electrical supply house that deals in used or buys leftover job site materials as they buy and sell cheaper than a electrical supply house. Sorry must run before I get caught and called a "visitor" again on this forum by one of the HBT members.

kal said:

Correct. I've already got a 120v/15A power to the room so that'll be used for most things. Most of the control panel power is for the element(s). I'll run the PIDs and pumps off it too of course but everything else will be a separate line.


Nope - I'm thinking 30A is too low so I'm bidding on some new 40 or 50A 2-pole GFI breakers on ebay right now.


Sorry - good point. I meant to say '2 pole'. (fixed). And yes, I'll do the work myself and possibly get an electrician to certify it to keep the wife happy.

Kal

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KAL; PM me; BrewBeemer.

The only reason I ask about running wires parallel is that I can't find quite the diameter of wire I need in STRANDED. I can find #10 here, but not #8 for a 30amp breaker running a 5500w heating element.

i realize ur not and electrician, and i realize what code says... but u can safely parralel wires if the connection is tight and all the wire is bonded to the screw. but i seriously think u cud get away with 25.4 amps on 10-2 and a 30 amp... u cudnt run a motor with those numbers... plus 10 gauge wire's true ampacity is a bit higher than what "code" allows u to use. its just xtra precaution.. if u try it with 30 amp and 10 gauge, the worst thing that will happen is ur breaker will trip...

BrewBeemer said:

On your disconnect you do not need a "cartridge" that is a fused disconnect.
If you want you can just use a disconnect as a fused one will cost you more money and you already have breaker protection ahead of the disconnect.

Click to expand...

The terminology is getting me. I'm not sure what a "disconnect" is. Can someone give me a product link on the internet? Thanks!

Kal

So given that my element(s) and pump(s) won't use more than 25A max I'm thinking that a 30A line is adequate.

I'm thinking of doing the following:

*Regular* 30A 2-pole breaker in the panel -> 10/4 wire -> some sort of 'disconnect switch' to power the brew panel on/off -> 30A dryer outlet.

The brew panel will be plugged into the dryer outlet using this 30A/240V 2-pole 4-wire GFI cord to provide protection:



$80 off ebay: 30A Ground Fault Interrupt Plug GFI CordCable FREE SHIP - eBay (item 110302613578 end time Jan-19-09 10:23:22 PST)

It's pretty inexpensive. Anyone ever use one of these? They don't mention if it's a "Class A" GFI. That's about my only concern.

One of the nice things about putting the GFI in the cable is that I can then take my brew setup with me elsewhere as we have 'brew day' events around here. 30A dryer outlets are easy to find.

Kal

if u have a digital volt meter, test ur 220 line and get an accurate voltage... then do ur formula.. ur 220 may be 240 volts which wud give u 22.9 amps... but either way, ur breaker will trip at 100 percent and 10 gauge wire will not burn up at 30 amps.. and im pretty sure appliance circuits are rated for 100 %... not 80

You cant do this project without a decent voltmeter... invaluable tool.
I think you will be okay with 30A service... but I am probably going to die after wiring my own panel, so take this with a grain of salt.

Seriously, this forum contains so much information and guidance, you will find that as you delve deeper, the easier it becomes. I like the idea of the GFCI dryer cord, that is pretty sweet for portable GFCI brewing.

Can and should are 2 very different things. Yes, you CAN wire this system with 30A service. I am sure it will work, and at worse you will pop your breakers over every once in a while... fine

HOWEVER, you SHOULD wire it to code with at least a 40A breaker and appropriate wire. I would say go for a 60A so you can use both elements as suggested above, but at minumum you should use the proper breaker.

I am not an electrician but do a lot of handy work and am renovating my old farm house (1910) that has been fixed by farmers for a hundred years and has everything from aluminum wire wrapped in cotton to romex and everything in between in the walls. The setup is not pretty and has caused my mind set to do things the right way, not hte easy way.

As always do what you like, I am living vicariously through your build anyway

GranillaNutz said:

if u have a digital volt meter, test ur 220 line and get an accurate voltage... then do ur formula.. ur 220 may be 240 volts which wud give u 22.9 amps... but either way, ur breaker will trip at 100 percent and 10 gauge wire will not burn up at 30 amps.. and im pretty sure appliance circuits are rated for 100 %... not 80

Click to expand...

Just pulled out my stove plug and tested:

Across hot 1 & neutral: 119 VAC
Across hot 2 & neutral: 119 VAC
Across hot 1 & 2: 239 VAC

But this is somewhat of a meaningless test as voltage will vary over the day and over the year as demand changes.

Right now it's 11AM in a residential area when everyone's at work and it's winter so A/C units aren't running. I'd expect to see it pretty much at 120V/240V which is what I see. In the evening between 5-7pm it dips as people come home and make dinner. In the summer when it's hot it gets worse and sags down to close to 100V/200V on the hottest days.

(I have a voltage monitoring device in my home theater that I can't help but glance at almost daily so I've seen how my house voltage varies over time).

The one sure thing is that it'll likely never be HIGHER than 240V as right now demand is probably at the lowest.

Kal

P.S. Anyone undertaking an electrical brew righ setup who *DOESN'T* already have a voltmeter should seriously think about hiring someone to do the electrical work for them.

the 80% rule applies for when it is a continuous load for more than 3 hours. I do not think I will ever run for more than 3 hours continuously, so I'm planning on wiring for 30 amps.

The GFCI breakers are expensive but it is safer so I'm going that route, then 15' of 10/3 w/ground to my 4 wire dryer outlet. I'm only going to have one set of hardware, 1 Pid/SSR one dryer receptacle and I will plug in my HLT or boil kettle depending on what I need to heat. (that also makes sure I don't run both at once). Also I don't think it would be a good idea to run both at once since my house has only 100 amp service.

If I need to keep both pots hot in the future I may add a heat stick on 110V that can plug into another circuit I have right by the brewstand already (I'm updating it to a GFI outlet).

Also I have a 30 amp rated switch to switch both legs of the 220v circuit.

422.10 the branch circuit for an appliance that is continuous load other han a motor operated appliance shall not be less than 125 percent of the marked rating, or not less than 100 percent of the marked rating if the branch circuit device and its assembly are listed for continuous loading at 100 percent of its rating
so u can and shud

kal said:

So given that my element(s) and pump(s) won't use more than 25A max I'm thinking that a 30A line is adequate.

I'm thinking of doing the following:

*Regular* 30A 2-pole breaker in the panel -> 10/4 wire -> some sort of 'disconnect switch' to power the brew panel on/off -> 30A dryer outlet.

The brew panel will be plugged into the dryer outlet using this 30A/240V 2-pole 4-wire GFI cord to provide protection:

$80 off ebay: 30A Ground Fault Interrupt Plug GFI CordCable FREE SHIP - eBay (item 110302613578 end time Jan-19-09 10:23:22 PST)

It's pretty inexpensive. Anyone ever use one of these? They don't mention if it's a "Class A" GFI. That's about my only concern.

One of the nice things about putting the GFI in the cable is that I can then take my brew setup with me elsewhere as we have 'brew day' events around here. 30A dryer outlets are easy to find.

Kal

Click to expand...

Man I like that, It seems like an elegant solution. If your worried about your pumps bringing the amps up you can just run them in a separate circuit. Have that (for the heaters) & a 110v cord (for the pumps).

I am excited to see this forum evolving... It seems that as time (years) passes, that we are as a group becoming more and more pioneering and advanced in our brewing techniques.

In the past months I have seen so many threads related to Electric controls, conversions etc... it is amazing! I never thought I would have an electric rig... but here I am, thanks to all of you.

Hope we are helping a bit Kal... opinions are like a$$holes, we all have them, but yours is the one that you should worry about

This forum is evolving into some pretty advanced and technical discussion on some pretty sweet rigs... what a great time to be a member here!

I am a big fan of AUBER Instruments and Automation Direct... I had excellent transactions with them. I used Automation Direct for my distribution block to split up my 240VAC that came into my panel. I used the 3-4 block... 3 lines, 4 loads per line. If you are running more elements and SSRs you will obviously need a larger one. I also used a 7 terminal grounding bar, again, mine is full from 3 switches, 3 outlets and the incoming ground... so you will probably need a larger one.

FWIW, I used 50A GFCI -> 6/3 wire -> range outlet -> range cord -> disconnect -> Subpanel w/ 2 30A and 1 15A circuits. I run 10/2 to each 4500W element (using a 3 prong dryer outlet and cord). All the 120V stuff is just 14/2. The 30A's are probably a bit big (4500W/240V = 19A), but I had them from basement finishing job. I guess in reality, I didn't really need the subpanel on the brewcart at all, now that I see what others are doing. I suppose, however, if one elements freaks out and causes issues, it would trip a circuit in the subpanel rather than screwing up whole rig before tripping the 50A? maybe??

If I could eliminate the subpanel, it would allow me much greater flexibility if/when I rearrange my bre cart as it takes up a bit of room in my "control panel" (big wooden box built into cart).

kal said:

l

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This cord is great. It will save me from having to buy a 30A breaker that is GFCI.

conpewter said:

The GFCI breakers are expensive but it is safer so I'm going that route...

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Safer than what? Using a GFI in a cord like I showed above? If yes, why?

Kal

The Pol said:

Hope we are helping a bit Kal... opinions are like a$$holes, we all have them, but yours is the one that you should worry about

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Helping a lot actually. It's always good to constantly re-think things and you guys are keeping me thinking!

bakins said:

FWIW, I used 50A GFCI -> 6/3 wire -> range outlet -> range cord -> disconnect -> Subpanel w/ 2 30A and 1 15A circuits

Click to expand...

There's that disconnect thing again... Anyone have a picture/link to what it is? Google doesn't help as it's a pretty generic term. What exactly is a "disconnect"?

Thanks guys.

Kal

I am enjoying the discussion. I am also building an electric rig. What I am planning, FWIW, is 50A GFCI -> 6/3 + ground wire -> Subpanel w/ 1 30A breaker -> 10/4 stranded wire to a 4 prong 30 amp dryer outlet -> 10/4 wire to the control panel -> 10/4 wire to the 5500 watt element. The subpanel has slots for future expansion if I want to run a 120v curcuit. I may also add outlets to the control panel to run 2 elements but not at the same time.

kal said:

There's that disconnect thing again... Anyone have a picture/link to what it is? Google doesn't help as it's a pretty generic term. What exactly is a "disconnect"?

Click to expand...

Here's what mine looks like:

Product Information Error Page

There are some that are like a big switch - technically not a disconnect, but close enough.

kal said:

Safer than what? Using a GFI in a cord like I showed above? If yes, why?

Kal

Click to expand...

Safer than not having a GFI at all, I wish I could have found a 30 amp GFI receptacle but was unable to do so. After further thought I'm thinking of going with the GFI 30 amp cord from ebay, since it is 17 ft I also won't need to buy any wire (Except the 1-2 ft to connect to a dryer outlet.... that happens to be right next to the gas dryer in case someone installs an electric one in the future)

Also if anyone is going to go for 50 amps, I saw some 50 amp GFCI breakers on ebay for ~30, much cheaper since they are used with spas.

is there a reason everybody uses 10/3 and 10/4... ive never hooked one up that used a nuetral... come to think of it, ive never hookd up a water heater above 30 amps... except for the on demand ones...

Well for a 220V 2 pole system you need two wires for hot. If your dryer/brewstand etc also has some 110V parts you can use the neutral and one hot leg to power those, then of course you have a ground wire too.

Gussymo said:

I am enjoying the discussion. I am also building an electric rig. What I am planning, FWIW, is 50A GFCI -> 6/3 + ground wire -> Subpanel w/ 1 30A breaker -> 10/4 stranded wire to a 4 prong 30 amp dryer outlet -> 10/4 wire to the control panel -> 10/4 wire to the 5500 watt element. The subpanel has slots for future expansion if I want to run a 120v curcuit. I may also add outlets to the control panel to run 2 elements but not at the same time.

Click to expand...

I'm no electrican but that setup makes sense to me. The only typo I see is that the wire to the elements is 10/3 not 10/4 (there's no need for a neutral). You can use 10/4 wire if you want, just cap the neutral with a marret.

bakins said:

Here's what mine looks like:

Click to expand...

Got it! Thank you! So just a big switch essentially. Can you use these to power on/off the brew panel so that no 30A+ power switch is required in the brew panel? Assuming it won't be turned on/off more than say once a day (more likely once a month).

Kal

10/2 is trade for 2 ten gauge wires and a ground... its actaully 3 wires but the ground is never counted... if u go to the supply house and ask for 10/3 you will get a black, red, white, and ground...