Help modifying an existing Saison recipe

For my next brew I'm hoping to make a clone (or as close as possible) of an Imperial Saison produced by a local brewery. I contacted the brewery directly about ingredients and they were gracious enough to basically tell me everything. Here is their response:

OG 1.065
FG 1.007
5.6 SRM
30 IBU

Pale Malt 2L 76%
Munich 10L 16%
Wheat malt 5%
Carapils 3%

144F 10min
158F 20min
170F 10min

Rakau 12.7AA 60min 0.415oz/5gallon
Rakau 12.7AA 10min 0.484oz/5gallon
Opal 7.9AA 0min 0.668oz/5gallon
Rakau 12.7AA Dry hop 0.634oz/5gallon

Wyeast 3711 French Saison


I am still an extract/specialty grains brewer so I'm trying to adapt this to what I know how to do. I played around with the hopville calculator and came up with this: http://hopville.com/recipe/1254111/saison-recipes/imperial-saison

I had to change the hop amounts due to the fact that I do partial boils and that the hops are slightly different in AA from rebelbrewer (one of the few places that has Rakau in stock). The OG, IBUs, and percentages in the fermentables look close enough. I could make them exact but I was trying to keep my ingredients to round numbers. The FG is higher than my local brewery's, the color is lighter.

My questions...

1. I know it will make beer, but am I on the right track here (with modifying this to extract)?

2. This seems very light on specialty grains. Do I just use the same percentages they did and call it good? Does it work that way?

3. How do they get the FG lower? The attenuation with that yeast is 77-83%.

4. I looked at other Saison recipes and many of them use plain sugar (to dry out I assume). Is that a necessary component?

Thanks!

I'm not too familiar with Rakau or Opal hops, but Saison covers a very broad range stylistically. To achieve a lower FG you need more fermentables in the wort. Unfortunately with extract you have little control over this and a lot of times extract brewers end up finishing around 1.020. You can add Amylase Enzyme to lower the FG, but be careful because there's no going back once you add it. You can add sugar if you like, this could potentionally help lower the FG a few points.

Thanks for the response. To be more specific, how do they get the FG lower without raising the OG? Won't adding additional fermentables raise the OG? And with my 2 previous beers, luckily, they've gone below 1.020, but I understand that can happen.

1) close, but a lil off. wheat extract isn't 100% and neither is the munich, so you need to overshoot it. also, ditch the carapils addition, its already in the pale extract. try something like
6lbs pale LME
3lbs Munich MLE
1lb wheat LME

3) cuz 3711 will never have that poor of attenuation, it'll get you closer to 90%. those ranges aren't the end all be all

4) not with 3711, it dries out plenty without it. altho since this is extract, you may want to throw some in, say 0.5-1lb

Well, you can replace some of your malt extract with sugar to achieve the same OG and get a lower FG. The way all-grain brewers naturally achieve a lower FG is partially by controlling the mash temperature. If you mash the grain at the beta stage only (<150 deg) you get a more fermentable wort that is drier.

There are lots of factors though like wort aeration, yeast viability, pitching rate, etc.

dcp27 said:

1) close, but a lil off. wheat extract isn't 100% and neither is the munich, so you need to overshoot it. also, ditch the carapils addition, its already in the pale extract. try something like
6lbs pale LME
3lbs Munich MLE
1lb wheat LME

3) cuz 3711 will never have that poor of attenuation, it'll get you closer to 90%. those ranges aren't the end all be all

4) not with 3711, it dries out plenty without it. altho since this is extract, you may want to throw some in, say 0.5-1lb

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how about this? http://hopville.com/recipe/1256551/saison-recipes/imperial-saison-2012-03-27-version

OG is now 1.072 (higher than the brewery's). No specialty grains at all?

dbreienrk1 said:

Well, you can replace some of your malt extract with sugar to achieve the same OG and get a lower FG. The way all-grain brewers naturally achieve a lower FG is partially by controlling the mash temperature. If you mash the grain at the beta stage only (<150 deg) you get a more fermentable wort that is drier.

There are lots of factors though like wort aeration, yeast viability, pitching rate, etc.

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gotcha, that makes sense. i assume using a starter would be a must in this situation.

wowbeeryum said:

gotcha, that makes sense. i assume using a starter would be a must in this situation.

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I make a starter for any beer when using liquid yeast. If I use dry yeast I rehydrate and then usually pitch from there.

look into using belgium candi sugar

Schumed said:

look into using belgium candi sugar

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just curious, why?

I only asked about sugar because I see it in a bunch of other Saison recipes, but this brewery doesn't use it and their beers turn out stellar. If it's not necessary to make an extract Saison then I'd like to skip it (and have my beer be as close to this one as possible).

wowbeeryum said:

I only asked about sugar because I see it in a bunch of other Saison recipes, but this brewery doesn't use it and their beers turn out stellar. If it's not necessary to make an extract Saison then I'd like to skip it (and have my beer be as close to this one as possible).

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Not necessary. Here is an extract Saison that I scored a 37/50 on at a recent contest. No sugar, but very different malt/hops than you.

http://koinz04.blogspot.com/2011/09/french-saison.html

dbreienrk1 said:

just curious, why?

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Because its Awesome but I always try to add it to Belgium style beers

wowbeeryum said:

how about this? http://hopville.com/recipe/1256551/saison-recipes/imperial-saison-2012-03-27-version

OG is now 1.072 (higher than the brewery's). No specialty grains at all?

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looks good. you could just do the pale extract and partial mash the munich/wheat around 150F for an hour. if you use the right amount of water (1-2 qt/lb grain) then its no different than steeping really, both of those grains have enough enzymes to convert themselves

dcp27 said:

looks good. you could just do the pale extract and partial mash the munich/wheat around 150F for an hour. if you use the right amount of water (1-2 qt/lb grain) then its no different than steeping really, both of those grains have enough enzymes to convert themselves

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i don't have another pot that will hold enough water, i don't think, for a partial mash just yet and i'm brewing on a crappy electric stove which makes holding ultra specific temps a pain. this will only be my 3rd batch and i obviously don't know what i'm doing. i tweaked it a bit and hit the OG perfectly: http://hopville.com/recipe/1256620/saison-recipes/imperial-saison-2012-03-27-version-alt

thoughts? are specialty grains necessary for a good extract beer?

I would steep or partial mash some two row/ pale, wheat & munich grains (1- 2 pounds total) to make it tastier than straight extract.
You do it in the boil kettle, no need for second pot. I am not getting why you think you can't partial mash (?)

midfielder5 said:

I would steep or partial mash some two row/ pale, wheat & munich grains (1- 2 pounds total) to make it tastier than straight extract.
You do it in the boil kettle, no need for second pot. I am not getting why you think you can't partial mash (?)

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the "easy partial mash" thread says you need 2 5 gal pots (I have 1).

I also would keep OG in the 1.060 range bc the wyeast will dry it out below 1.010 (well it did with my AG) and it was too high abv. personal preference for beers less than 8%.

and yes, you need a large starter (2l) or two vials of yeast for the current OG.
check out mrmalty.com

wowbeeryum said:

the "easy partial mash" thread says you need 2 5 gal pots (I have 1).

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Well that doesnt sound easy to me. I am not familiar w that thread but you dont need 2 large pots. extremely brief version--
In your 5 gallon pot, bring ~1 gallon of water up to 150-155. Get your malt, add grains (in one or two grain bags) to this water, cover and wait 20-30 min.
Meanwhile in a smaller kitchen pot or tea kettle, bring some water up to 180*.
After the 30 min or so, raise up & rinse grain bag with this hot water. remove & toss grain bag. add water up to top of your bk, start boiling.

You can do a partial mash BIAB in one pot. Mash the Munich, wheat, carapils and somepale in a paint strainer bag. This is pretty accurate for figuring out your strike temp. http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml. Mash pretty low 149-150 for one hour. You can warm your oven up to low, then turn it off. Once you get your grains in and stirred well, let them sit for several minutes and check temp. If it is good then put the pot in the warm oven. It will hold temp great for the hour. After the hour is up, lift out the bag and let drain for as long as you can. A colander over the pot works great. Then sqeeze all the moisture out.....Yes I said squeeze, don't worry it will not extract tannins. Sqeeze as much as you can get out. If you need to add some more water to reach full quantity you can. A small pot is all that is needed to get some water warm to help speed up the boil.

I would recommend making up the rest with DME instead of LME. Add some at the beginning of the boil and some towards the end. Doing this you may have to adjust your hops slightly,but not a lot. Those that say that extract batches will not finish low have never done it. If you mash low, use fresh DME, aerate your wort well, and pitch plenty of healthy yeast you can get a partial mash to finish low. I did a few when I was doing extract batches that got down to 1.004 using 3711.

I love a good Saison so I wish you good luck with this brew.

^ This sounds doable.

So the question then is, how much of each ingredient? This is becoming a bit more complicated that I originally planned on, which is fine, but I need specific direction in order to pull it off. I'm not yet to the point where I can figure this sort of stuff out on my own.

about 2lbs munich and 0.75lbs wheat. you can use some pale malt too if you want to cut back on the extract (1lb pale LME = 1.3lbs 2-row), but its not necessary. as has been mentioned u can do this in 1 pot, its just a lil slower since you won't be able to heat up the rest of the water. I gotta imagine you have another cooking pot in the house you could use to speed this up tho.

I do have other pots, just not sure how big they are. Maybe 1-2 gallons is my guess (and a 5 gal SS kettle). To confirm, it's fine to do partial boils this way, correct?

the munich & wheat plus 1gal of water should only take up about 5qts of space, so if one of those others pots holds 2 gals you're golden. just mash in that and then start heating up the rest of your water in your kettle. after an hour, pull out your grains (rinse/squeeze if you want, the extract is the bulk of your gravity so its not critical) and add the wort to the rest of your water and continue as normal.

fyi, if you're going this route you'll need about 7lbs pale LME or 6lbs DME

If you have a 5 gal pot this is very doable. With a 5 gal pot you can easily mash about 6 lbs of grain, so you will not need a lot of DME, and not a lot of water to get enou for a boil.

When I get to my brew software I can punch in some numbers and give you an idea of the recipe. Percentages are easy.

dcp27 said:

the munich & wheat plus 1gal of water should only take up about 5qts of space, so if one of those others pots holds 2 gals you're golden. just mash in that and then start heating up the rest of your water in your kettle. after an hour, pull out your grains (rinse/squeeze if you want, the extract is the bulk of your gravity so its not critical) and add the wort to the rest of your water and continue as normal.

fyi, if you're going this route you'll need about 7lbs pale LME or 6lbs DME

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thanks. i was just playing with some quick calculations and it looked like 7lbs LME/6lbs DME as well (from my best guess anyway).

beergolf said:

If you have a 5 gal pot this is very doable. With a 5 gal pot you can easily mash about 6 lbs of grain, so you will not need a lot of DME, and not a lot of water to get enou for a boil.

When I get to my brew software I can punch in some numbers and give you an idea of the recipe. Percentages are easy.

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appreciate the assistance. keep in mind I cannot do a full boil on my electric stove. it has struggled with 2.5-3gal partial boils, so I need to stay in that range.

Here is what I came up with...

Mash 3 lbs pale , 1lb Munich, 8 oz wheat. Eliminate the Carapils becuase most Extract includes a little of it. This will give you 11% Munich and 5.6% Wheat. Close enough. Add 2 lbs. DME at the beginning of the boil and another 2 1/2. Lbs near the end.

Mash low using 1.25 Quarts per lb of grain. Add enough water to give you about 3. 1/2 gal boil (assuming you do have a 5 gal pot)

wowbeeryum said:

To confirm, it's fine to do partial boils this way, correct?

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yes, i used to do it all the time with AG, so its of no issue with PM. just be sure to add most, if not all, your extract late to reduce darkening and caramelizing.

beergolf said:

Here is what I came up with...

Mash 3 lbs pale , 1lb Munich, 8 oz wheat. Eliminate the Carapils becuase most Extract includes a little of it. This will give you 11% Munich and 5.6% Wheat. Close enough. Add 2 lbs. DME at the beginning of the boil and another 2 Lbs near the end.

Mash low using 1.25 Quarts per lb of grain. Add enough water to give you about 3. 1/2 gal boil (assuming you do have a 5 gal pot)

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to be clear, what kind of DME am I using (I don't see a Pale DME listed in hopville's ingredient list)? I do have a 5 gal pot, hopefully it can handle a 3.5 gal boil.

pale is the same as golden or light. just use as much water as you can handle boiling

beergolf said:

Mash 3 lbs pale , 1lb Munich, 8 oz wheat. Eliminate the Carapils becuase most Extract includes a little of it. This will give you 11% Munich and 5.6% Wheat. Close enough.

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those percentages aren't correct, it'll take more than 9lbs of malt to reach 1.065.

again, no need for the pale malt if you don't want to do a bigger mash, plenty of enzymes in the munich & wheat alone

dcp27 said:

pale is the same as golden or light. just use as much water as you can handle boiling



those percentages aren't correct, it'll take more than 9lbs of malt to reach 1.065.

again, no need for the pale malt if you don't want to do a bigger mash, plenty of enzymes in the munich & wheat alone

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You missed the DME. That makes up the difference...

wowbeeryum said:

to be clear, what kind of DME am I using (I don't see a Pale DME listed in hopville's ingredient list)? I do have a 5 gal pot, hopefully it can handle a 3.5 gal boil.

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You can use golden light or even use Pilsen. If you cannot do a full 3.5 gal boil it can be scaled down. Just adjust the hops according to the boil size.

beergolf said:

You missed the DME. That makes up the difference...

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the percentages given by the OP are based on AG, basing them on PM doesn't give you the correct amounts.

dcp27 said:

the percentages given by the OP are based on AG, basing them on PM doesn't give you the correct amounts.

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Assuming 75%. Then the numbers add up. I routinely get more than 75% doing BIAB partial mash. So I was conservitive with my numbers. But any way a couple of points is not a big difference. This will get the recipe very close.

again, as a partial mash it doesnt work correctly. with 75% efficiency the recipe would be:

9lbs 2-row (76.1%)
1lb 14oz munich (15.9%)
9oz wheat (4.8%)
6oz carapils (3.2%)

so as PM, basically
7lbs pale LME (or 6lbs DME)
2lbs munich
0.5lb wheat

swap as much LME for 2-row as you want (1lb 2-row = 0.75lbs LME = 0.6lbs DME)

its not like you were way off or anything, but it was nearly half the amount of munich called for

You are right. For some reason I put in10% Munich in my recipe. DUH. 1.5lbs of Munich will give you 15.8% in the recipe I gave before. I also dropped the Carpils because most extracts have some Carapils in it .

Thank you so much for all the help, this is exactly what I needed.

I checked it out and the other pot I have is 6 Q/1.5 G (in addition to the 5 G pot). If I use just a total of 2lbs of grains (1.5 munich and .5 wheat) it looks like all of that would fit in the 6 Q pot, including the 2.5 Q of strike water (just barely, it would be 5.66 Q of stuff in a 6 Q pot). Is that ok?

Either way, given this equipment, what exactly should my mashing method be? Temps, time, process, etc? I've read the brew in a bag thread but it seems like there are a bunch of different methods people use.

I understand that partial mashing allows greater flexibility in terms of the style of beer you can brew and ingredients you can use, since not all grains can be steeped. In the case of this beer, all the fermentables are available in extract form. What is the benefit of partial mashing in this case? To help get the beer below 1.020 at the end? To reduce caramelization of the extract? I'll definitely do it this way, but just wondering for general knowledge.

2lbs plus 2.5qts shouldn't even take up 4qts of space, so you should have room to spare

steep the grain in a bag (make sure its not tight) at 148F in 2.5-4qts. after an hour, pull the bag, rinse w/ a qt & squeeze if desired (its a small portion of your gravity so its not that important to get every bit of sugar out).

using more grain vs extract will allow greater fermentability, plus a fresher/better malt flavor. not to mention its cheaper.

I'm an idiot, I see. I thought the calc was saying the grains itself would take up .79 G of space, plus the 2.5Q of water. Instead, it's .79 G total (3.16Q). Yes, plenty of room to do it in the small pot.

Do I allow it to sit with the pot lid on? Should I attempt to keep the temp steady by adjusting the electric burner, using a blanket, or using the oven?

I understand that I then pull the bag out and let it drip, allowing the bag to sit over the pot in strainer.

When you say rinse with a Q, do you mean then run a Q of water over the bag and into the pot? Or put the bag into a separate pot of water? What temp should this water be at?

yes, keep the lid on. you can use any three of those methods to hold the temp, so whatever one you're most comfortable with. oven or blanket is the least work and for this its not critical to stay exactly at temp, just don't want it to drop/raise too much.

the rinse with a Qt step is a sparge. I'd just pour the Qt over the bag while its in the strainer or dunk it in your kettle. the temp isn't that important, just keep it under 170ish to keep from extracting tannins.