Need help refining a Honker's Ale Clone recipe

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chase

chase

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My friend loves Honker's Ale. One night (while completely loaded) we decided to try and clone the recipe from scratch. I've read other recipes, and tried a few of them, and frankly, they are not good at replicating Honker's. We started with a recipe that included insufficient Victory malt and (strangely) strisselspalt hops. We are very close to a finished clone, but I would like some feedback on what others think of our recipe, and the actual beer itself.

So here's our recipe:

Frank's ****ty Beer #3
8-C Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
Author: Chase Bolt

Size: 5 gal
Efficiency: 70%
Attenuation: 70%
Calories: 168.01 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.050 (1.048 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.015 (1.010 - 1.016)
Color: 16.65 (6.0 - 18.0)
Alcohol: 4.6% (4.6% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: 34.9 (30.0 - 50.0)

Ingredients:
7. lb Maris Otter
2.0 lb Victory® Malt
8.0 oz 2-Row Caramel Malt 60L
12.0 oz Special Roast Malt
1.0 oz Fuggle (5.2%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
2.0 tsp Irish Moss - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
1.0 oz Willamette (4.6%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
0.5 oz Cascade (8.0%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
2.0 ea White Labs WLP002 English Ale

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 Mash in - Liquor: 3.84 gal; Strike: 167.79 °F; Target: 155 °F
01:03:00 Sacc Rest - Rest: 60 min; Final: 155.0 °F
01:13:00 Sparge - Sparge: 3.31 gal sparge @ 168.0 °F, 10 min; Total Runoff: 6.09 gal

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.2

---------------------------------------------------
Specific things I would like comments on:
-body: what kind of mouthfeel do you sense in Honker's?
-hops: I think the english/american blend I have is appropriate, but I'm a little unsure on the addition times, and lack of aroma hops. Thoughts?
-anything else.
 
I find the fresh draft version of Honker's to be much better than what I get when I try the bottles. I find the body to be on the heavy side for the genre - it's on the creamy side. I agree on a blend of UK/US hops - the fresh draft seems cascadey in aroma and flavor, but it does have some spicyness. I would definitely use some cascades for aroma, but don't overdo it.

Have you tried the recipe in Beer Captured? Is it close at all?
 
Duster72 said:
Have you tried the recipe in Beer Captured? Is it close at all?
Click to expand...

No. I don't have that book. I've read that the recipe is pretty good. I may take a look at it eventually, but we really want to try to avoid it at this time. Plus I think we are pretty damn close.

I'm glad that you think the body is pretty heavy, so do we. Thanks.
 
I love Honkers Ale. I was wandering though about the special roast addition. Is that maybe TOO nutty/biscuity? I have never used it though. It's been a month or so since I had the beer but I remember some caramel sweetness, some nutty-ness (Victory), and the spicey hops. I am not a big fan of Cascade really at all so I would just use the Fuggles and Willamette, but that's just me.

I got a big GC from the LHBS so I am trying to stock up on some recipes and a Honker's clone will be one of them.
 
Well, I have it on good authority that a "citrusy American hop" is used. So I interpreted that as cascades, but it could be any of the C-hops, or whatever else you see fit.

The things you mentioned (biscuits, nuts, caramel, and spicey hops) are all present in this beer. It is very close to Honker's but not completely there. I would say that if you want a decent clone, then use this recipe.

I think the special roast evens out the nuttiness, although you could probably skip it if you think it may be too much. I know that crystal and victory are used, but I can't say if the special roast is. I just thought it would be good.
 
I'm going to get a 6er tomorrow. You are certainly right that the other recipes online do not look good at all. Have you brewed any version of the above recipe? Or is this all on theory?


I'm going to try a recipe without the special roast and with willamete, fuggle and maybe just a touch of amarillo (??) at 15 mins or so. I'll see how it goes. It will be a few weeks until I can brew though...Plus I need to drink the beer again.
 
Something like this. Just need to decide on the american citrus hop for 15-5 minute mark.

Stats
OG 1.045
FG 1.011
IBU 37
ABV 4.4 %
SRM 10

Specifics
Boil Volume 5 gallons
Batch Size 4 gallons
Yeast 75% AA

Style Comparison
Low High
OG 1.039 1.045 1.045
FG 1.009 1.011 1.014
IBU 20 37 45
SRM 6 10 14
ABV 3.7 4.4 4.8
Fermentables
% Weight Weight (lbs) Grain Gravity Points Color
76.9 % 5.00 British Two-row Pale 35.6 3.1
15.4 % 1.00 American Victory 6.4 6.3
7.7 % 0.50 British Crystal 50-60L 3.2 6.9
6.50

Hops

0.50 Fuggles 60 mins
0.50 Willamette 25 mins
0.50 Fuggles 25 mins
0.50 Willamette 15 mins
 
That recipe is one that I have brewed. It just went into the bottle. In a few more days it will be carbonated. It is good now. Once it is carbonated and matured a little, I will have a better idea of how it tastes. But at bottling, it was good.
 
Ok I just had a bottle and I'm going to stay away from one of the C hops. Just a little more emphasis on the late additions of Willamette and Fuggles. Somewhere someone mentioned noble hop flavors and this beer leaves a taste on the tongue like a beer I made with Saaz hops. Also I saw elsewhere online that Styrian Goldings are used through out the whole recipe which I guess Willamette and Fuggles would cover. Debating on the amount of Victory too....
 
The first attempt we made at this was using a recipe I found (maybe on HBT) that used all styrian goldings. They aren't right at all. Perhaps in a small amount they would fit but certainly not what that recipe was advocating.
 
This thread inspired me to grab a six pack of Honkers the other night. I definitely do love this beer and would love to have a decent clone recipe! I find this beer extremely drinkable and it certainly has a nice thick creamy mouthfeel as was discussed above. I'm too new to AG to be able to comment on the hops though but the malts seem reasonable to me.
 
Well this is all very interesting....

This is the forum I was saying had the Styrian Goldings recipe:Morebeer's Brew Chat • View topic - Goose Island Honkers Ale

Read the posts by UpperValleyBrewer. He claims back in 1998 he interviewed the head brewer and those are the notes he took. He's got malt precentages (which shows no Victory???) and the hops as Styrian Goldings straight through....

Who knows. Maybe this is kind of like math how 3+1=4 and so does 2*2=4

I should be able to brew mine next Sunday though. I'm just going to do a 2.5 gallon because I have no propane and it is suppose to be stupid cold through out the week.
 
chase said:
The first attempt we made at this was using a recipe I found (maybe on HBT) that used all styrian goldings. They aren't right at all. Perhaps in a small amount they would fit but certainly not what that recipe was advocating.
Click to expand...


The Styrian Golding verison I refernced above has 7oz of the hops, mostly late additions, while the one recipe I saw on here only had 4oz and they were mostly early additions....but instead of all of the hops the willamette/fuggle combo should be fine and I can get away from using alot of hops.
 
I bottled my attempt last night and it is awesome! Clone or not! However, I thought it was very close to what Honkers is but possibly still a little light on the hop flavors. I didn't get that lasting taste of hops in my mouth like I usually do with Honker's as well as with other late hopped beers. But the sample was straight out of the carboy. The malt flavor and color seemed fine. I will post my recipe when I get home and keep this thread updated as the beer carbs. and I can drink it at a cooler temperature in the next couple of weeks.
 
Honkers has to have a very large late addition of either Cascade or Centennial or my palette be damned. The OP's .5 oz of Cascade at 15 probably should have been more like 2oz at 10 minutes. Just my 2 cents.
 
Yeah, I had been thinking a massive late hop addition and cascade/centennial addition really is what gives it the american twist on the ESB. Of course this was after I made my recipe, decided against other's advice, and drank more of it from both draft and bottle...that and I am not suppose to like Cascade damnit!;)
 
Here is the recipe I used for a 2.5 gallon all grain batch:

3.25lbs British Two Row
.5lbs American Crystal 60L
.35lbs American Victory

Fuggles (4.0%) and Willamette (4.6%)

.5oz fuggle at 45mins
.5oz Willamette at 25mins
.25oz Fuggles at 15mins
.25oz Wilamette at 10 mins
.25oz Fuggles and Willamette at 0mins


Mashed at 153, boiled for 60 mins. Fermented at 64*F for three weeks and then bottled with priming sugar.


Got the Color right though. Mine is the uncarbed version on the left. Needs an ounce or so of late hops. Will combine the 15,10,0 and put in around 5 minutes or so. And then some more at 0.

n2344016_51619338_444.jpg
 
Honker's Ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.25 Wort Size (Gal): 5.25
Total Grain (Lbs): 6.69
Anticipated OG: 1.035 Plato: 8.88
Anticipated SRM: 16.4
Anticipated IBU: 36.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 1.55 Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.80 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.027 SG 6.90 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
71.0 4.75 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3
18.7 1.25 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
7.5 0.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2
2.8 0.19 lbs. Roasted Barley Great Britain 1.029 575

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 23.3 60 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 8.5 10 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 4.6 5 min.
1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 0.0 0 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Unit(s)Whirfloc Fining 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1968 London Extra Special Bitter


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 6.69
Water Qts: 12.50 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 3.13 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.87 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 30


Total Mash Volume Gal: 3.66 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
 
This beer is now 3 weeks old and once properly chilled is a very close clone. I didn't do a side by side tonight but it really is damn close. None the less a good esb.
 
Well I just found out this weekend that we're moving to SC in August and Goose Island doesn't distribute into SC nor can etailers ship into SC so nailing this clone has gotten bumped up to the top of my homebrew priority list.

Adam, what do you think of Bobby's comment that a few ounces of C-hops at the 15 minute mark are obviously present now that your sipping your clone? Also, Chase in a PM mentioned that his grain bill was dead on and he's currently using 67% MO, 29% Victory, and 4% Crystal 60 which is quite different from your 79% MO, 9% Victory, 12% Crystal 60. Does yours lack any nutty/biscuit notes when compared to the real thing? Chase mentioned he might bump the Victory up even higher than 29% on the next batch.
 
I made the recipe out of Clone Brews last weekend. Their hop schedule has Northern Brewer for bittering, then Willamette and Cascades for flavor and aroma additions. That combination made sense to me based on what I taste in the beer.

I will post results once it's finished.
 
Bobby_M said:
Honkers has to have a very large late addition of either Cascade or Centennial or my palette be damned. The OP's .5 oz of Cascade at 15 probably should have been more like 2oz at 10 minutes. Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...

Okay, Bobby is definitely on to something here! I just made the recipe below last Sunday and I can't stop checking the gravity because it tastes so damn good! And to top it off, it without a doubt has that same undefinable taste that Honker's Ale has. I attribute it to my 3oz addition of fuggles at 15 minutes. My previous two AGs used fuggles as well although much smaller and later additions and they don't have that same taste.

Goose Island just changed the information on their site (again!) and now the grain and hop bill is back. They're still saying Styrian Golding is 100% of the hop bill and after tasting my ESB with 100% fuggles I can absolutely believe it. My malt bill is really damn close too even though it differs from that published by Goose Island. Mine is definitely more biscuity than Honker's which seems to wash with their grain bill of 2-row, caramel, wheat, and roasted barley.

Code: 
Bemused Bitter - Late Hop
Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
 

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Boil Size: 7.06 gal
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 90.00

Ingredients

Amount 	Item 	Type 	% or IBU
3.0 oz 	Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM)(for Starter) 	Dry Extract 	2.29 %
6 lbs 	Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) 	Grain 	73.28 %
12.0 oz 	Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) 	Grain 	9.16 %
8.0 oz 	Biscuit Malt (19.3 SRM) 	Grain 	6.11 %
8.0 oz 	Cara-Pils/Dextrine (1.5 SRM) 	Grain 	6.11 %
4.0 oz 	Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) 	Grain 	3.05 %
0.50 oz 	Fuggles [4.70 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) 	Hops 	9.0 IBU
3.00 oz 	Fuggles [4.70 %] (15 min) 	Hops 	22.8 IBU
1.00 gm 	Salt (Mash 60.0 min) 	Misc 	
2.00 gm 	Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 min) 	Misc 	
6.60 gm 	Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) 	Misc 	
9.00 gm 	Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) 	Misc 	
	
1 Pkgs 	London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [Starter 1000 ml] 	Yeast-Ale 	
 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.049 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG 	Measured Final Gravity: 1.024 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.77 % 	Actual Alcohol by Vol: 3.26 %
Bitterness: 31.8 IBU 	Calories: 225 cal/pint
Est Color: 9.9 SRM
 
Mash Profile
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body 	Total Grain Weight: 8.00 lb
Sparge Water: 5.05 gal 	Grain Temperature: 68.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F 	Tun Temperature: 68.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE 	Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Full Body Step Time 	Name 	Description 	Step Temp
45 min 	Mash In 	Add 8.00 qt of water at 184.2 F 	159.0 F
10 min 	Mash Out 	Add 4.00 qt of water at 206.1 F 	172.0 F
 
Carbonation and Storage
Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar 	Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 4.3 oz 	Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 68.0 F 	Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 68.0 F
 
this is where i've gotten with beeralchemy, i've yet to brew this but it uses only what GI's website says they use

Fermentables
US 2-Row Malt 6.00 lb
US Caramel 60L Malt 1.75 lb
UK Wheat Malt 0.50 lb
US Roasted Barley 0.10 lb


Hops
Styrian Goldings 4.5 % 1.00 oz Bagged Pellet Hops 60 Min
Styrian Goldings 4.5 % 0.75 oz Bagged Pellet Hops 30 Min
Styrian Goldings 4.5 % 0.50 oz Bagged Pellet Hops 10 Min
Styrian Goldings 4.5 % 1.00 oz Bagged Pellet Hops At turn off

Expected Color 14.6 SRM
Expected IBU 30
Expected ABV 4.2%
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity 1.037 SG
Expected FG 1.011 SG
 
i really need to get this cloned because it is hard to find here and it's expensive, i just got back from chicago last night with a couple hundred bucks worth and i'll surely run out before i get back up there lol. i really love this beer to drive 5 hours to get it.
 
WildPirate, I can promise you that that hop schedule isn't going to get you where you're trying to go. Try 0.5oz FWH and 2.30oz @ 15 minutes.

Also, you'll need to mash on the high side and finish at a much higher FG in order to keep the same mouthfeel that Honker's has. I highly recommend 1.049 down to 1.017 instead.
 
My pleasure! Your grain bill looks perfect by the way. I think you're going to be extremely impressed with how similar your brew is to Honker's. I'm still floored that Bobby's massive late kettle addition worked but it was dead on. I can't wait to get home from this business trip and pull another gravity sample of this brew.
 
Goose Island uses 100% Styrian goldings, no "C" hops at all. I used all fuggle in my recipe with the grain bill as stated above and it came out pretty damn close. I used S-05 and have a feeling if I used S-04 it would be spot on. It's still really close though.
 
Great thread guys! I was going to stay at the start that I disagreed with the American citrus hop thing. Maybe they tried it at some point, but honkers is a straight up Bitters that is brewed with Styrian. I was talking about this with one of their reps last year and he was positive about that.
 
Wow. After making my last attempt at cloning this beer, I gave up a little. I was mostly trying to clone it for a friend. I like the beer but not enough to drink batch after batch while trying to zero in on a good recipe.

I'm glad to see that people have still been working on it. I tried a batch using all styrian goldings and the flavor profile just didn't seem to match. Maybe I'll give it another shot...
 
Ok I bought a six of this today and really liked it.
So what was the final recipe that came the closest?
 
Try the one I posted a page or so ago. It's for 2.5 gallons so just double everything for a 5er. Either combine my last three additions into one and then have a flame out addition of at least a 1/2 to even an ounce of whatever hop you use. Use either all styrian goldings or the willamette/fuggle combo. is very comparable. Adjust hop additions for AA's of your hops as well.
 
lostspring said:
Ok I bought a six of this today and really liked it.
So what was the final recipe that came the closest?
Click to expand...

I would use the one from the guy who claimed to have copied it down while interviewing at GI. Since they now post their hop and grain bill on their website you can see that it matches up perfectly. Sounds like the recipe to me.

Don't make the one from Clone Brews. It's not close - or good IMO.
 

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