50' CFC or Chillus Convolutus?

Alright just considering other options aside from a plate chiller.

Would a 3/8" x 50' copper CFC be any better than a 25' one or even better than or equal to the Chillus?

I guess I would like the max flow possible with the closest to chilling water as possible, with price and build size not a concern. If I can chill 5 gallons to 3-4F above ambient water temps in 3-4 minutes then I am happy. Can I do this will any of these options?

25' is plenty. The first time I used mine with the gardon hose half way open, it would cool the wort to 58F-60F dagrees. I used a pump the second time and it was still in the mid 60's.

I'm also cooling 10gals.

ghart999 said:

Alright just considering other options aside from a plate chiller.

Would a 3/8" x 50' copper CFC be any better than a 25' one or even better than or equal to the Chillus?

I guess I would like the max flow possible with the closest to chilling water as possible, with price and build size not a concern. If I can chill 5 gallons to 3-4F above ambient water temps in 3-4 minutes then I am happy. Can I do this will any of these options?

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I think being able to chill to within 3 or 4 degrees of ambient within 3 to 4 minutes is not practical.

Sawdustguy said:

I think being able to chill to within 3 or 4 degrees of ambient within 3 to 4 minutes is not practical.

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You can do it........ With a Blichmann Therminator and a pump with 1/2'' lines.

Mustangj said:

You can do it........ With a Blichmann Therminator and a pump with 1/2'' lines.

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This I know, because I have a Therminator. It's obvious the OP does not because he is looking at a CFC. I was speaking in respect to the CFC's the OP mentioned. Kapish?

Sawdustguy said:

This I know, because I have a Therminator.

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Me and you are on the same page! Just saying it can be done.

EDIT: Sorry...I did mean to step on your cock!

Thanks Sawdustguy. I am really trying to find the best cooling method regardless of cost. If the Therminator can do it, then I am willing to go this route. It just seems that so many of the claims of CFC users on here support that a well done CFC can outdo the best of the plates. If this is not the case, then I don't want a CFC. I wanted confirmation from someone who has used both.

I have a pump and will be using 1/2" ID lines. So...

Ha....that's a good one

I have a Chillus and really like it. It looks cool, and works great. No fuss, no muss, and it takes true negligence to clog it. Again, this is a matter of preference, just like most equipment. Both work really well....I have also had phenomenal results NOT CHILLING AT ALL. When I do chill with the CFC, I have been able to cool my wort just as fast as I can get it through the chiller...this is the same as using a plate.

Also something to note...you may not want to put a hopback right before a plate due to debris...but you can definitely do it with a CFC.

ghart999 said:

Thanks Sawdustguy. I am really trying to find the best cooling method regardless of cost. If the Therminator can do it, then I am willing to go this route. It just seems that so many of the claims of CFC users on here support that a well done CFC can outdo the best of the plates. If this is not the case, then I don't want a CFC. I wanted confirmation from someone who has used both.

I have a pump and will be using 1/2" ID lines. So...

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It's all about contact between coolant and wort which is itself a function of flow rate, surface area and disruption of laminar flow. The convolutus does the latter better than other counterflow chillers but the plate chiller has more surface area and is going to be the fastest.

You said you wanted the best method regardless of price: define best. The plate is faster, the CFC is slower but only by a few minutes. The CFC is less fussy in terms of trub and hop filtration and probably a bit easier to clean and sanitize. That is your tradeoff.

ScubaSteve said:

Ha....that's a good one

I have a Chillus and really like it. It looks cool, and works great. No fuss, no muss, and it takes true negligence to clog it.

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To you have some ball park numbers on how far above ambient your wort comes out?

The reason I am so hooked on this is that I ferment some of my beers at 62F. My tap water is 58ish in the summer and cooler in the winter. Hence I want to avoid having to do an ice-bath or anything to get down to 62F when my tap is 58F. Make sense? With my IC, I eventually get to 62F. If a CFC can do it great, I would prefer it due to its easier sanitation. If only a plate can do it, then fine too.

I just need some more hard numbers than "they work great."

I should clarify the above as well. If the CFC can get to 4F above ambient but at an extremely slow flow rate (.5gpm) and the plate can do it as a faster rate, I would still prefer the plate. I am not concerned with hop debris and I did go ahead and spend the money on a Hopstopper, which I have already confirmed blocks even hop pellets very well. Loss hops is not even a concern now.

As a chemical engineer trained in heat exchanger design, allow me to offer a couple of quick comments.

Plate chillers are generally by design CFC's. All it means if a chiller is a CFC is that the wort and cooling water flow in opposite directions. The only difference is in how the liquids flow through them. With both designs, given the same contact surface area and flow rates of wort and cooling water you should get nigh-identical chilling capacity (assuming similar materials of construction).

If you want to be able to make an apples-to-apples comparison of two chillers, one a CFC and the other a plate, you need to know the heat exchange area of the plate chiller and the length and internal pipe diameter of the CFC. Then, assuming both are copper (it's a much better heat transfer material than steel) and that they can both take the same flow rates of liquid, a simple area comparison will give you which one is better (assuming they're the same price or similar at least).

If someone can provide me with relevant information (flow rates, wort and cooling water inlet temperatures, plate chiller area, and CFC length and inner pipe diameter and material) I can very easily run a comparison if anyone is interested. I was working for awhile on a "Heat Exchangers for Brewers" document, which has unfortunately been put on the back burner, but I can certainly run a quick comparison here.

Thanks Shadow. I am curious from a theoretical point of view on this. I can try to give the variables but I am not sure if I am missing something.

Plate Chiller - Therminator.
Has dimensions of 7.5" x 4.1" I am not sure if that dimension is equal to the effective cooling area of each plate however. For simplicity lets say each plate has this diameter. There are 40 plates. So I come up with .214 ft^2 per plate for a total of 8.54 ft^2 of cooling area. However, everywhere I have read, the Therminator has a cooling area of 6.5 ft^2. Hence each plate much be smaller than the overall dimensions.

CFC Chiller
Assume a 3/8" OD tube 25' long. This would put the ID at 1/4" I believe. Not sure on the total surface area on this. I can't remember the formulas used to determine this.


Assume a wort flow rate of 2gpm and a water flow rate of 5 gpm. Wort starting temp of 212F. Assume a water temp of 60F for simplicity.

Also I would be curious to see the results based on wort flow rates of 1gpm and 1.5 gpm as well if its not too hard.

Is this enough info? Again I know this is the mathematical theory behind them. Yet there are always different variables that won't be considered here. But at least on paper I am curious as to the differences.

Thanks again.

I can give ballpark numbers, but not "hard data".

I live in Chicago, our ground water is mid 50's-low 60's in the summer, and wicked cold in the winter....like mid 40's.

I usually use my Chillzilla with gravity and can drain a 10 gallon batch in right around 10 minutes. If I were to use a pump, it would certainly be quicker.

In the summer, I push the coolant wide open and can achieve 65-70F (perfect for pitching) with a gravity drain. This takes probably 8 mins for 5.5 gallons....I am usually cleaning up at this time.

In the winter, I have to pull back the coolant 75% because the ambient temp is also low. There is an added cooling effect in the air and garage floor as I fill the fermenter.

I think the CFC has a larger ID than 1/4"...just from memory.

I don't know if that helps or not....I think both perform equally well for the volumes we handle. I guess it comes down to form factor/aesthetics and your preferred cleaning methods.

I just need to know one more thing: What temperature do you want your wort?

Assuming both have the same material of construction (copper), I can tell you already that the therminator has about 4 times the heat transfer area of the coil chiller. 6.5 ft^2 vs. 1.64 ft^2 (if you look at the outer diameter of the inner pipe it's closer to 3:1, with the inner pipe having about 2.45 ft^2 of heat transfer area on the outside).

But once you tell me the wort temp. you want, I can tell you what your best bet is. However, just as a note, I ran the numbers on the CFC as if the copper pipe were an immersion chiller. With the data you specified, it would take a half hour to get 5 gallons of wort down to 20 deg. C. Just for reference.

Actually, I think the plate exchangers are made of stainless...

You are correct, sir. I went and looked that up...Means a bit of extra work on the math side, but no big deal. Still need to know the final wort temperature and what maximum water outlet temperature you'd accept, ghart.

Shadow , so with a 60F ambient water temp I would love to hit 64F for the wort outlet temp.

Steve, thanks for the details. That does help quite a bit.