White Rajah Clone

Most people who keg their homebrew force carbonate. (My method is to hit it with 30 to 35 lbs, disconnect the co2, let it sit that way for a day or two and then hook it up at serving pressure, it takes 7-10 days to carb up this way. It works for me bc I have one regulator and I'm not into rushing my beers anyways) Most commercial breweries force carbonate also. I'm sure bottle conditioning would change the taste. For what its worth, I have no reason to believe that the commercial example I go and my beer are more than a week apart in age.

Just was made aware of this thread, thanks for your interest guys....a few thoughts:


The British flag in the label art is just an homage to the country of origin.

The grain bill is a lil off as are the hops. There are currently 5 hops in Rajah, with the recent addition of a new Zealand hop to stretch out the aforemntioned Citra. Her'es a couple hints....one hop that has been mentioned isnt used at all. As for malt, one base malt, one crystal type malt, one "specialty" malt and one non malt.

.....keep tryin, i will steer ya all in the right direction ;-)

JackK
Head Brewer
TBK Production Works

sauce said:

Just was made aware of this thread, thanks for your interest guys....a few thoughts:


The British flag in the label art is just an homage to the country of origin.

The grain bill is a lil off as are the hops. There are currently 5 hops in Rajah, with the recent addition of a new Zealand hop to stretch out the aforemntioned Citra. Her'es a couple hints....one hop that has been mentioned isnt used at all. As for malt, one base malt, one crystal type malt, one "specialty" malt and one non malt.

.....keep tryin, i will steer ya all in the right direction ;-)

JackK
Head Brewer
TBK Production Works

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Thanks for the reply and the help. I've got a lot of different recipe variations floating around this thread. For my clarification, is this the recipe your giving us hints on?

28lbs 2-row
1lbs c-40
1lbs red wheat

1.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] (60 min) Hops 43.8 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [8.70 %] (30 min) Hops 16.0 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (15 min) Hops 4.9 IBU
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] (15 min) Hops 13.3 IBU
3.00 oz Citra [11.40 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (0 min) Hops -
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -

If that is the case, I could see some sort of toasted malt in a small quantity instead of the wheat(Victory, Biscuit, or Melanoiden). Is the non malt your talking about is a simple sugar to help dry it out? I've been thinking about it more over the last few days and its possible that your using a more sharp bittering hop like Chinook. The hop I'm using that I've been playing around with getting rid of is amarillo. So, Chinook, Centennial, Citra, Columbus plus the NZ variety that I'd have to do some research on. The 5th hop that immediately came to mind for me was galaxy but that is an Australian variety, Nelson Sauvin is a NZ variety but I don't know how similar that is to citra. I'll have to do some more "research" later on tonight now that I've got some hints.

rjschroed said:

Thanks for the reply and the help. I've got a lot of different recipe variations floating around this thread. For my clarification, is this the recipe your giving us hints on?

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I'd ditch the Armarillo. BK tends to like hops that begin with the letter "C". It may be Chinook, or Cascade.

I would think the Centennial is the culprit.....I taste the Amarillo.
And I've brewed with Galaxy, and it's similar to Citra in it's taste.
I do realize that Galaxy is Australian...I've had their firkins infused with Nelson Sauvin and they are really good.
I've probably drank more Rajah when I can get it than most people in this area.
I even named my female dobe "Rajah".

Here are my thoughts. Based on the above comments and my email from the brewery I think its most likely 2row, c40, victory, and table sugar to dry it out. Hops are Centennial, Amarillo, Citra, (nelson,or galaxy), and maybe something like magnum to bitter. Any thoughs on that?

I thought I tasted amarillo in it too but after tasting what I have there may not be, At the very least it needs to either be reduced or removed from the dry hop. In my opinion, there is definitely classic centennial grapefruit in the flavor and the nose. Columbus might be the hop that doesn't belong. Columbus is a workhorse around my brewery but I am not really sure detect it in Rajah. Columbus is a pretty smooth bittering hop and in my recipe for Hoptimus Prime I either bittered with the wrong hop or not enough of it because the bittering was smoother than Rajah. I'm not for certain but my guess, NZ hop excluded, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra. It seem we all agree on it being some combination of 4 of these 5 hops: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra. I don't know if this is helpful or not but TBK sells homebrew supplies. It seems to me they probably sell the same stuff they are using. Here is that list: http://www.thebrewkettle.com/bop/homebrewprice.pdf

I'm on board with 2-row, c-40, victory, sugar.

Clear your msgs...it said it was full, rjschroed.

I don't taste the nutty taste of the Victory. I think it's a wheat grain....in a small amt.

rjschroed said:

I thought I tasted amarillo in it too but after tasting what I have there may not be, At the very least it needs to either be reduced or removed from the dry hop. In my opinion, there is definitely classic centennial grapefruit in the flavor and the nose. Columbus might be the hop that doesn't belong. Columbus is a workhorse around my brewery but I am not really sure detect it in Rajah. Columbus is a pretty smooth bittering hop and in my recipe for Hoptimus Prime I either bittered with the wrong hop or not enough of it because the bittering was smoother than Rajah. I'm not for certain but my guess, NZ hop excluded, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra. It seem we all agree on it being some combination of 4 of these 5 hops: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra. I don't know if this is helpful or not but TBK sells homebrew supplies. It seems to me they probably sell the same stuff they are using. Here is that list: http://www.thebrewkettle.com/bop/homebrewprice.pdf

I'm on board with 2-row, c-40, victory, sugar.

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I think you might be right about the Chinook instead of the Columbus for bittering.....so I'd agree with Chinook, Centennial, Citra, Amarillo and the nz variety....but I've used the Victory from there and get a distinct nutty taste to my beer.

Sauce! Thanks for being awesome enough to hop on these boards and interact with the home-brewing side of the craft community. We really do appreciate it!!!

The 5th hop that immediately came to mind for me was galaxy but that is an Australian variety, Nelson Sauvin is a NZ variety but I don't know how similar that is to citra. I'll have to do some more "research" later on tonight now that I've got some hints.

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Yep, Nelson

I'd ditch the Armarillo. BK tends to like hops that begin with the letter "C". It may be Chinook, or Cascade.

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Yep, no Amarillo...but neither of those "C"s make the cut. There is and "S" in small quantities, not the obvious one though

It seem we all agree on it being some combination of 4 of these 5 hops: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra

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Guess you now know your 2 for 5

I don't taste the nutty taste of the Victory. I think it's a wheat grain....in a small amt.

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nope...no Victory

Sauce! Thanks for being awesome enough to hop on these boards and interact with the home-brewing side of the craft community. We really do appreciate it!!!

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No prob...was a home brewer, probably still would be if the the wifey would allow it....heck, the only reason she let me turn pro was because I made so little as a graphic designer it wasnt much of a pay cut....and I promised not to stink up the house brewing anymore

I like puzzles.

Now I'm envisioning something like this.
2-row
C-40
White Wheat
Sugar

and something like this for the hops. I'd have to work out the additions when my software is nearby.

Columbus
Centennial
Citra
Nelson
Summit

Jrod said:

I like puzzles.

Now I'm envisioning something like this.
2-row
C-40
White Wheat
Sugar

and something like this for the hops. I'd have to work out the additions when my software is nearby.

Columbus
Centennial
Citra
Nelson
Summit

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Ding Ding Ding...on the hops, now ya gotta work on the ratios and additions.

BZZZZZZZ (insert Price is Right wrong answer sound effect) only thing correct on the grain bill is the 2row

sauce said:

Ding Ding Ding...on the hops, now ya gotta work on the ratios and additions.

BZZZZZZZ (insert Price is Right wrong answer sound effect) only thing correct on the grain bill is the 2row

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Oh man I hate that noise. Usually followed by the Waa Waah Waahhh noise.

With the grain bill now I'm just stabbing in the dark because It's been at least 3 months since I've had a bottle.

2 Row
C-20 or Caravienne
Malanoidin
Orange Blossom Honey

My guess would be 2 row, c-20, cara-pils and dextrose or flaked wheat.
BTW, I'm having a blast with this.

I would also guess the summit is only in the dry hop....with Columbus as the bittering hop....with citra/centennial, nelson/centennial as flavoring...
and citra, nelson, centennial, summit as dry hops.

Dextrose (aka corn sugar) doesn't make sense with cara-pils. They have opposite affects. Also, if c-20 is your Cara-pils isn't a specialty malt, it's a caramel malt, by that logic we should also rule out things like cara-munich and cara-vienne. c-20 makes a lot of sense if your going to use a "specialty" malt. I have to believe it to be a toasted malt of the lighter variety and not much of it. Since we know it's not victory, my guesses would be:

biscuit, which is very similar to victory
melanoidin, which I would use with extreme restraint. . . like %1-2 of the grist. (It also happens to reportedly be the only non-base malt in dreadnaught)

I would love to consider caramunich and caravienna as an alternate to c-20 though.

I'll put together a recipe with hops and grains a little later tonight for sauce to give us hints on what is right and wrong.

Good deal....you put a lot more thought into it than me....how about my hop schedule?
I'm definitely thinking c-20 though. Never used biscuit....does it impart a nutty flavor like Victory?

I don't feel great about this recipe. It's hard to design a recipe with some ingredients you have never used. Summit is a hop I am unfamiliar with and reports are very mixed on it's use (garlic/onion vs. citrus/tangerine). I feel pretty good about the use of the nelson, centennial and citra. . . I think I'm under utilizing columbus and perhaps completely misusing summit. The grain bill is a shot in the dark, completely off the beaten path of what we have been doing. . . it'd be interesting though.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
27 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 91.5 %
1 lbs Caramunich II Malt (46.0 SRM) Grain 2 3.4 %
8.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3 1.7 %
1 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 4 3.4 %
1.25 oz Summit [17.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 39.1 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 6 18.8 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [11.40 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 11.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 5.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs

BrunstuckyJoe said:

Good deal....you put a lot more thought into it than me....how about my hop schedule?
I'm definitely thinking c-20 though. Never used biscuit....does it impart a nutty flavor like Victory?

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I like your hop schedule as a direct alternative to mine. I was either gonna do what I did or something along the lines of what you have. Biscuit and Victory are very similar in my opinion. . . biscuit might be a little less nutty.

That's why I guessed the summit in the dry hop.....more of a citrus/tangerine taste that way. Seems the longer the boil with it, the more grassier the taste....

The other thing I was considering for hops:
1.60 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 41.2 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 6 18.8 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [11.40 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 11.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 5.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Summit [17.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs

Thinking about it more, I'm probably more comfortable with it like this

As for malt, one base malt, one crystal type malt, one "specialty" malt and one non malt.

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My guess would be 2 row, c-20, cara-pils and dextrose or flaked wheat.
BTW, I'm having a blast with this.

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ok, will give ya the Carapils....still not close on the "specialty" malt...your close on the non malt.

As for the hops, I like hop blends that use the same basic percentages for all the flavor/aroma additions...figure the percentage of each hop then its just about how many and when for the hop additions.

2 Row
Carapils
Honey Malt (Brumalt)
Flaked Maize

Columbus for bittering maybe as a first wort hopping.
My guess is that the rest of the additions are the same proportions and the occur in the last 20 minutes (20, 10, 5, Flame Out, and Dry Hop). Because Citra is a large part of this beer and they needed to cut it with Nelson and because it has already been stated that there is a small percentage of Summit I would propose the following hop proportions.
40% Citra
20% Nelson
30% Centennial
10% Summitt

This beer gets more and more interesting as we talk about it.

rjschroed what SRM did your brewing software say that you hit on your first attempt?

Jrod said:

2 Row
Carapils
Honey Malt (Brumalt)
Flaked Maize

Columbus for bittering maybe as a first wort hopping.
My guess is that the rest of the additions are the same proportions and the occur in the last 20 minutes (20, 10, 5, Flame Out, and Dry Hop). Because Citra is a large part of this beer and they needed to cut it with Nelson and because it has already been stated that there is a small percentage of Summit I would propose the following hop proportions.
40% Citra
20% Nelson
30% Centennial
10% Summitt

This beer gets more and more interesting as we talk about it.

Click to expand...

Ding Ding...we have another malt, yep, honey malt...love the stuff. still close on the non malt, but not there yet.

Hops % isnt too far off, though your missing a hop

Jrod said:

rjschroed what SRM did your brewing software say that you hit on your first attempt?

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I'll have to double check when I get home but I want to say 7.

You are saying the non malt is close on two flaked guesses which best I can figure leaves flaked barley, rye, and oats as the options. Somehow I doubt that spelt or triticale are being used in the production but I could be wrong.

My guess would be flaked barley.

So the hop percentages are off and I'm missing a hop which means I'm wrong about columbus only being used for bittering.

So the new hop percentages go like this and it would have made the original recipe 50% Citra prior to the addition of Nelson.

Citra 30%
Nelson 20%
Centennial 30%
Columbus 10%
Summitt 10%

-With 2-row
-Honey Malt
-Carapils ( I don't really understand the use of carapils I was under the impression that there were no significant flavor contributions and that it only serves as a way to add dextrins and mouthfeel which could be controlled by varying the mash temp.)
-Flaked Barley (Mouth feel and head retention?)

I apparently have alot of preconcieved notions about brewing that I need to get past. lol

Dang JRod, you beat me to it. Was going to say Honey Malt. Favorite of mine as well sauce. Columbus and Summit for bittering.

I'd say
Columbus 5%
Summit 5%
Citra 30%
Nelson 30%
Centennial 30%

It can't be Rye, so I'd say Flaked Barley. I've had this when it was old and it has a bread like malt character. Also, using Nelson in conjunction with Citra explains why this isn't brewed everytime there is an open fermenter. That also explains why the owner of TBK said it was the bane of his existence.

Just moved to Orange County from cleveland and brought a case of rajah with me. I have one left. I have to drink it before the freshness runs out. Kind of like putting down old yeller if you ask me. So this recipe is huge for me! ha! Funny enough, I won 3rd place in the west point market homebrew comp before I left and was told mine compared to rajah. Now if I can only make rajah!

On a side note Sauce, the black rajah does not taste like it has the same hop schedule. Would I be correct and if so, is it because nelson and citra are hard to come by? I would assume the patent on Citra allows them to control demand. I just brewed a single hop with Galaxy and am super impressed with it's similar characteristics!

Thanks so much for chatting on here with us Sauce. If you ever want to distribute out in California, I'm your guy...lol

-Mike

I am drooling in suspense!
Like many others ~ The White Rajah has been a hands down favorite since it touched my picky little lips!

I love the guessing game (as clones should be)

and I will also attempt to brew up the closest clone to the best beer ever!
(once all these great guesses come up with something concrete)

"been following this for days now =) "

When this is done and we decide to brew we have to send a bottle to sauce. Probably needs to be the rule of this thread. If you brew it you must ship a bottle or two.

Romulan42 said:

I am drooling in suspense!
Like many others ~ The White Rajah has been a hands down favorite since it touched my picky little lips!

I love the guessing game (as clones should be)

and I will also attempt to brew up the closest clone to the best beer ever!
(once all these great guesses come up with something concrete)

"been following this for days now =) "

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Welcome to the party. I've been obsessing over it for months. I think I've been the only one who has actually tried to brew something like it to this point. I figured it would take me several attempts to get it to something in the cloned area. What I had was a good starting point and something I could honestly recommend brewing of your into rajah. It's nice to sit back and hear other opinions finally. And the input from sauce has been fantastic. Trust me, we will keep buying rajah, the clone experience is more about learning the art and gaining knowledge than ripping the brewery off, plus that's not cool.

For me its about how to translate the flavors of a beer that I really love into something I can brew. Then you start to realize the ingredients that you like, how they were used, and can incorporate them into what you brew.

I just wanna be a better home brewer....I normally use a similar malt backbone...I need to expand my horizons...I've probably put a good portion of cash into their business.....you have no idea how much of this stuff I've consumed.....

Jrod said:

For me its about how to translate the flavors of a beer that I really love into something I can brew. Then you start to realize the ingredients that you like, how they were used, and can incorporate them into what you brew.

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BrunstuckyJoe said:

I just wanna be a better home brewer....I normally use a similar malt backbone...I need to expand my horizons...I've probably put a good portion of cash into their business.....you have no idea how much of this stuff I've consumed.....

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That is pretty much what I meant

I finally got to check my color calculations and they were 6. Use it as a rough guideline, it's just a calculation that, in my opinion, is ballpark at best.

Jrod said:

You are saying the non malt is close on two flaked guesses which best I can figure leaves flaked barley, rye, and oats as the options. Somehow I doubt that spelt or triticale are being used in the production but I could be wrong.

My guess would be flaked barley.

So the hop percentages are off and I'm missing a hop which means I'm wrong about columbus only being used for bittering.

So the new hop percentages go like this and it would have made the original recipe 50% Citra prior to the addition of Nelson.

Citra 30%
Nelson 20%
Centennial 30%
Columbus 10%
Summitt 10%

-With 2-row
-Honey Malt
-Carapils ( I don't really understand the use of carapils I was under the impression that there were no significant flavor contributions and that it only serves as a way to add dextrins and mouthfeel which could be controlled by varying the mash temp.)
-Flaked Barley (Mouth feel and head retention?)

I apparently have alot of preconcieved notions about brewing that I need to get past. lol

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Of the flaked malts, I vote flaked rye. . . flaked barley doesn't make a lot of sense to me, use it for mouthfeel and head rention. . . which is what carapils does as well although I'm sure they aren't exactly the same(for one, less protein/chill haze from the carapils). As far as carapils adding dextrins and mouthfeel that is correct. Mashing higher doesn't do exactly the same thing though. Mashing higher will leave longer chain unfermentables (not necessarily just dextrin) which equates to more residual sweetness. Or at least that is my opinion on the subject. We don't want to make a sweet beer here, we want something with a nice broad malt backbone that doesn't stand out too much to support the hops.

@sauce, how does this look for the grist
85% 2 row
5% carapils
5% honey malt
5% flaked rye

rjschroed said:

Mashing higher will leave longer chain unfermentables (not necessarily just dextrin) which equates to more residual sweetness. Or at least that is my opinion on the subject. We don't want to make a sweet beer here, we want something with a nice broad malt backbone that doesn't stand out too much to support the hops.

@sauce, how does this look for the grist
85% 2 row
5% carapils
5% honey malt
5% flaked rye

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This beer is a very dry beer. So I agree that it is mashed low 149-150. As the label says "malt take a back seat" but the use of carapils and a flaked product should bring the mouthfeel back up not to mention the amazing head retention and lacing this beer has. The only real "malt backbone" is from the honey malt which adds a nice perceived sweetness. I never would have guessed rye as it has a distinct flavor to me but maybe in a small quantity the dry rye spiciness hides in the hops.

Jrod said:

This beer is a very dry beer. So I agree that it is mashed low 149-150. As the label says "malt take a back seat" but the use of carapils and a flaked product should bring the mouthfeel back up not to mention the amazing head retention and lacing this beer has. The only real "malt backbone" is from the honey malt which adds a nice perceived sweetness. I never would have guessed rye as it has a distinct flavor to me but maybe in a small quantity the dry rye spiciness hides in the hops.

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I agree with all that. The sweetness that I was perceiving I thought came from the hops, specifically Amarillo. Perhaps it was a bit of the honey malt and Nelson that tricked me into thinking that. I suppose it's possible to do the same thing with the rye, in a small percentage I wonder how much you would even notice it in a beer so bold. A lot of the research I did less me to believe 5% flaked rye wasn't very much.

Ok, Jrod got the final bit of the grain Bill, it is flaked barley....

When this is done and we decide to brew we have to send a bottle to sauce. Probably needs to be the rule of this thread. If you brew it you must ship a bottle or two.

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That would be awesome....hell, we could have a lil competition, I could get the owner and my assistants together to do a lil judging.

So tell ya all what......you all have the ingredients now.....lets pick a date and anyone that wants to brew it and send two in for a lil shoot out. Thinkin mid January? We will even come up with some kind of prize package.

.....So now ya might wanna keep your recipe ideas on the down low ;-)

Let me know if your all interested

I'm all in. Off to internet stalk some citra.