This thread is so much more hilarious after a few beers..
Do what you want, or don;t do anything, it's your beer after all...
Word, it defiantly is.......
Trust Your Airlock
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Word, it defiantly is.......
Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
Yikes, people. Forget the airlock. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. But it is fun to watch.
Just go get a carboy or Better Bottle and WATCH the fermentation. You'll know when it's done by looking at it. Now everybody make nice.
Just go get a carboy or Better Bottle and WATCH the fermentation. You'll know when it's done by looking at it. Now everybody make nice.
I put the wort in the fermenter, pitch the yeast, and watch to see that some activity has started thru the airlock after a few hours or the next day.
After a month or 6 weeks or whatever, I give it a swirl and come back two days later, get a FG reading to document the beer and find ABV, and rack it into a keg.
There are so many things that can make an airlock appear to be not active, and things that can make a finished ferment look active, by the airlock.
It means nothing either way, and only serves as a passive check valve for gas coming out and nasties to not go in.
A hydrometer or refractometer is the only way to know what the current state of the beer is.
After a month or 6 weeks or whatever, I give it a swirl and come back two days later, get a FG reading to document the beer and find ABV, and rack it into a keg.
There are so many things that can make an airlock appear to be not active, and things that can make a finished ferment look active, by the airlock.
It means nothing either way, and only serves as a passive check valve for gas coming out and nasties to not go in.
A hydrometer or refractometer is the only way to know what the current state of the beer is.
So what, Revvy can be a little abrasive sometimes. Its not that big of a deal, get over it. Revvy has probably helped more noob brewers than 99% of the members in this community. Although sometimes he and I have had misunderstandings and exchanged words I always remember that they are just that, words. I respect Revvy for his contribution to HBT and consider him a very valuable asset. He never claimed to be a scientist and will be the first to admit that, but what he does have is experience. And sometimes experience is worth more than knowledge.
As far as airlocks are concerned I've had krausen drop and airlock activity stop but the gravity continued to drop. Towards the latter end of fermentation you'd have to sit around the airlock and wait for spurts of gas every hour or so. A hydrometer/refractometer will tell you the gravity, gas coming from the carboy won't. There is much more to be learned from using precise instruments than there is from using a fifty cent piece of plastic.
As far as airlocks are concerned I've had krausen drop and airlock activity stop but the gravity continued to drop. Towards the latter end of fermentation you'd have to sit around the airlock and wait for spurts of gas every hour or so. A hydrometer/refractometer will tell you the gravity, gas coming from the carboy won't. There is much more to be learned from using precise instruments than there is from using a fifty cent piece of plastic.
OP
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I am totally with you on this. Revvy has gone above and beyond to help the beginners who come to this forum. All this banter aside, that's something that gets my respect. Had my share of homebrew last night and mellowed out. Hope we can all start this new day as friends.
It was a rough game, but thanks for playing.
seigex
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I have to disagree with this statement.. excessive sampling is excessive reasoning to taste excessive samples.. especially for those of us who are inherently impatient at heart...so you can't say it does *nothing*...
just a thought...
SpanishCastleAle
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There is a non-zero chance that even your hydrometer/refractometer doesn't tell you what the current state of the beer is (just use your imagination...you can come up with ways it could be wrong). I admit...it's very close to zero but still non-zero.
On the other hand I think that using the airlock, along with experience and knowledge of what has already happened (like; krausen rose and fell) gives me a very, very good idea of where the beer is at in the process. There's a non-zero chance it would be wrong...but still very close to zero. I'm fine with that very small risk...it's just a tiny bit more risk than relying on a hydrometer imo. It's not like I'm waiting for the airlock to stop so I can rack it...I'm not racking it before 2 weeks no matter what. Usually the airlock has been idle for at least a week. At that point I see no reason to take a hydro sample...I'll just catch a hydro sample as I'm racking (by 'catch' I mean the sample gets collected as I'm racking so no chance of contamination). However, if the airlock was still bubbling a lot I wouldn't rack it...or take a hydro sample.
I know that in the past Revvy has claimed to have full fermentations without ANY bubbles coming from an airlock. I think that claims like that, without further clarification, can be misleading. It seems like a gross exaggeration just to try to make a point (and I totally agree that Revvy is usually one of the more helpful HBT members). If your beer fully fermented...it made CO2...a LOT of it...fact. If you had a full fermentation without airlock activity you either had a leak or you didn't use an airlock...or maybe you forgot to put water in it.
For most of it's history people made beer without hydrometers...or even thermometers. They did it by being observant. The notion that you have to be some sort of Yeast Whisperer or Beer Savant to do this is ridiculous imo.
It was bad enough that Squirrely decided to take out whatever **** was going on yesterday out on me. That's why I pretty much ignored this what did he just call it, "little game", 'casue I knew I didn't do anything to warrant it.
But don't you ever ****ing call me a liar again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or accuse me of being "misleading."
If I don't see airlock bubbling I don't see airlcok bubbling, several OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD HAVE SAID THEY DON'T OFTEN SEE AIRLOCK BUBBLING. So shove it up your ass!!!!!!!!!!
I wouldn't say that if it wasn't true....where the **** do you THINK I got the IDEA NOT TO TRUST THE DAMN THING ANYWAY, from my own observations.
I have 9 different fermenters, buckets, carboys, water bottles, whatever, and I have seen airlock bubling maybe half the time....
chumprock
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Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water...
SpanishCastleAle
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Settle down Beavis.
Thank you. It twists my knickers to no end when folks are so dead set into one process to brew. Use any and all resources available to you. Ignoring a "pressure relief" device because it doesn't have a graduated scale on it is ignoring data. Brewing is art AND science and always has been. Use your senses to see where things are in the process as well as "modern" tools available to you.
To ignore one aspect or the other doesn't make any sense to me at all.
flyangler18
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Someone needs to walk away from the keyboard.
These childish temper tantrums are happening too damn much.
I'm disappointed.
mmb,
Very well stated and it was the point that I was trying to make as well; as much as I like using scientific instruments like my hydrometer and my refractometer, I still take the time to use my senses to make observations rather than just cold readings.
These childish temper tantrums are happening too damn much.
I'm disappointed.
mmb,
Very well stated and it was the point that I was trying to make as well; as much as I like using scientific instruments like my hydrometer and my refractometer, I still take the time to use my senses to make observations rather than just cold readings.
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janzik
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IBL or before Yooper/Orfy/o||||||||||||||||||||o regulate this mofo...
To me, that would be an equipment fault and I'd strive to fix it. I've never had a batch ferment where there wasn't airlock activity. If the airlock wasn't bubbling, it wasn't doing the job of letting pressure out without letting outside air in.
You know your equipment. The n00b that says it's not bubbling might not know how to use the equipment and saying "It's alright, sometimes it doesn't bubble" doesn't help them use the equipment the right way. You might have a leak in bucket/lid/stopper/whatever that you are aware of. The n00b doesn't know that.
Not had your morning coffee yet?
p4ck37p1mp
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Jeez guys, calm down.
Tonedef131
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lolin in dis thread
OP
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janzik
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I don't ignore per se, but I don't take too much stock in it. The OP, regardless of the pretense *I* believe came with it, believes that the primary to secondary gravity reading is unnecessary and that we (gravity takers as a whole) are using it as a step to play with our beer. Also, I read it as he believes the gravity readings are just to see attenuation/brew efficiency, after the fact. That's my interpretation of what he wrote.
My 3 issues with what he said were that he assumes we're playing around for the sake of playing (as I said in another reply, I have *my* reasons), new brewers aren't sanitary and that this thread appeared to be for the sake of debunking something that Revvy preaches.
The thread deteriorated into making it sound like the OP was insinuating people were taking daily/hourly gravity readings. I don't think he implied that. I think he was just referring to that one extra reading. So I think he got an unfair shake on that.
I'm of the opinion, based on what I got out of his first post, that it is bad advice that he is giving (but who the hell am I?). He's got an opinion, I've got one. I'm willing to agree to disagree.
For those saying, "they've done it without hydrometers for 1000s of years"... Didn't people used to also practice bloodletting? Or how about how they used to help the Civil War soldiers with their gun shots... a bottle of whiskey and a hacksaw. I suppose they're all fine, but I'd rather not eyeball it...
I believe that racking to secondary is mostly unnecessary as well, but let's not open THAT can of worms... 
Gravity readings after fermentation, for me, are just to see attenuation and ABV. I'm not going to pitch champagne yeast or beano to try to attenate the beer more and ruin what I already have. It's done. My process is such that if I hit my temps on brewday and my OG reading I have no issues during fermentation.
This old chestnut again. Brewing science and process has been refined over the years, but nothing in the actual process has changed. We boil the wort, add yeast one way or the other and let things progress from there. History might not have known exactly WHY something worked, but it worked and we really haven't changed it.
*chuckle* bloodletting....
Gravity readings after fermentation, for me, are just to see attenuation and ABV. I'm not going to pitch champagne yeast or beano to try to attenate the beer more and ruin what I already have. It's done. My process is such that if I hit my temps on brewday and my OG reading I have no issues during fermentation.
This old chestnut again. Brewing science and process has been refined over the years, but nothing in the actual process has changed. We boil the wort, add yeast one way or the other and let things progress from there. History might not have known exactly WHY something worked, but it worked and we really haven't changed it.
*chuckle* bloodletting....
ThickHead
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As I mentioned before, there has been no visible airlock activity (or none within any timeframe I have observed) over the past 6 days now. The krausen fell completely 4 days ago, however, in that same amount of time my Oktoberfest has gone from 1.026 to a now 1.020.
I am not stating this in Revvy's defense specifically but adding my experience (though I admit it is not extensive) and observation to this debate. There is nothing wrong with the equipment I am using, it is in perfect condition. I will concede that it is very possible that the fermentation is so slow that the space of time in which i observed my airlock was insufficient enough (and I have stared a good long time) to see the activity that is actually taking place. However, as I am unwilling to waste more time staring at the airlock when it takes less time to gather a hydrometer reading, the more efficienct and active choice is clear.
There is no reason why a brewer cannot make perfectly good beer by never using a hydrometer. However, when it comes down to it, speculation and/or intuition are not worthy sciences. This is the Science forum afterall. Airlock activity can give you quality information indeed. Airlocks are trusty tools of the brewing trade, they were just never designed to measure the completeness of fermentation. So relying completely on such a device to gather that information is not going to give one consistent results.
The right tool for the job is most often the best tool for the job. I've seen statues carved with a chainsaw that are cool as hell, but I am unlikely to hear about those in the same conversation as those at the Brancacci Chapel in Santa Maria del Carmine in Florence.
FireNightFly
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Wow, is this thread serious or some kind of joke? Why dont you use both the airlock visual and a hydrometer to test?
Also, science will tell us, just because something isnt bubbling, doesnt mean that gas is no longer being released. If fermentation is slowed, gas is released in small amounts with very little pressure, this would equate to more gas in the liquid in your airlock, usually shown by small bubbles on the inside walls of your airlock. Given so many molecules in the gas, the gas would release without a sound or visuals.
I may be new at brewing but this is 6th grade science last I remember. Besides, science tells us to use "all" the tools available to us in order to achieve the maximum possible results. The human mind with the proper tools is superior to any guesswork alone.
Just my 2cents. Take it for what its worth.
Also, science will tell us, just because something isnt bubbling, doesnt mean that gas is no longer being released. If fermentation is slowed, gas is released in small amounts with very little pressure, this would equate to more gas in the liquid in your airlock, usually shown by small bubbles on the inside walls of your airlock. Given so many molecules in the gas, the gas would release without a sound or visuals.
I may be new at brewing but this is 6th grade science last I remember. Besides, science tells us to use "all" the tools available to us in order to achieve the maximum possible results. The human mind with the proper tools is superior to any guesswork alone.
Just my 2cents. Take it for what its worth.
chumprock
Well-Known Member
I almost wanna call April fool's, but it's September.
Ok, enough is enough. Capital letters (yelling), name calling, etc. are too much to take.
It's hard to believe that the majority of you are grown men. I've seen better behavior on gaming forums loaded with teenagers.
You guys are ****ing unbelievable.
It's hard to believe that the majority of you are grown men. I've seen better behavior on gaming forums loaded with teenagers.
You guys are ****ing unbelievable.
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