Rant

Frickin IDIOTS...got this guy at work rambling on about global warming and how it is so bad and we are killing everything.
I have tried many times to tell him that there is no such thing and he is just dumfounded. This going green crap, CFL's law they are trying to pass, global warming, ethanol, and all this crap about renewable resources UGGHH cant take it any more, people just hop on the bandwagon with out doing any research. They think it is the greates thing and not one thing I mentioned is a GOOD thing

rant done I feel better.

Um, have YOU done any research? If you think that global warming and green products are "crap" then I would guess that you haven't either.

I can't stand people on either side of the debate who make unfounded unqualified absolute statements about the subject. I lie somewhere in the middle: the scaremongors like Al Gore are part of a concerted effort to frighten the people by cherry-picking facts and laying doomsday scenarios. The other side is populated largely by wholesale deniers who approach the issue with a position and then try to justify that position by ranting about hwo global warming is a myth.

What I can't figure out is why more people can't approach the issue with an open mind and no preconceptions and base their position on the facts and evidence. Both sides are guilty here.

... and here we go again and again and again...

Here's the thing. There really isn't any debate that there's global warming. The only real question is the cause of it and what (if anything) to do about it. If you're trying to claim that there's no such thing as global warming... well, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise.

mot said:

Frickin IDIOTS...got this guy at work rambling on about global warming and how it is so bad and we are killing everything.
I have tried many times to tell him that there is no such thing and he is just dumfounded. This going green crap, CFL's law they are trying to pass, global warming, ethanol, and all this crap about renewable resources UGGHH cant take it any more, people just hop on the bandwagon with out doing any research. They think it is the greates thing and not one thing I mentioned is a GOOD thing

rant done I feel better.

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I bet you belong to the Flat Earth Society too, huh?

There also is no reasonable doubt that we are using oil faster than the Earth is making it and that, in our current situation, we are deep kimchi after we use it up.

That said, here's another waste of petroleum (but more a waste of time):




TL

Another Global Warming thread. Uh Oh, here we go again.....

Here we are, with May just over a week away and there are folks in Wisconsin freezing their hops off.



Funny thing since the earth has been cooling for decade, the GW alarmists are spinning it as Climate Change. Look outside, it's raining. Climate Change. Look outside 60 minutes later, the sun is shining. Oh no, climate Change.

Just follow the money on this. AlGore has his fingers all over it and is well positioned to rake in billions as his minions push for legislative mandates to use his companies and products.

AlGore likes to say that mankind puts 70 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere every day. What he probably doesn't know is that mother nature puts 24,000 times that amount of our main greenhouse gas -- water vapor -- into the atmosphere every day, and removes about the same amount every day. While this does not 'prove' that global warming is not manmade, it shows that weather systems have by far the greatest control over the Earth's greenhouse effect, which is dominated by water vapor and clouds.

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Got Weather Questions?

the_bird said:

... and here we go again and again and again...

Here's the thing. There really isn't any debate that there's global warming. The only real question is the cause of it and what (if anything) to do about it. If you're trying to claim that there's no such thing as global warming... well, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise.

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While there are a vast number of signs pointing to warming, our historical data is inaccurate at best, so even to say it is warning is not quite fact. A very good, and most likely correct theory, but not fact.

My stance on the issue...we need more research before we do anything drastic that could topple our, or other, economies; or possibly even make the situation worse. For now, we just need to focus our studies on the issue and do little things like limit deforestation, recycle, plant new trees, limit carbon emissions, turn off your lights when you aren't in the room, drive high mileage cars, etc etc until we know.

EdWort said:

Just follow the money on this. AlGore has his fingers all over it and is well positioned to rake in billions as his minions push for legislative mandates to use his companies and products.

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I just read somewhere or heard on the radio, Don't remember which that Al gore is finally admitting he is pulling in scores of cash off this.

Im not sure about the GW but I do know that the push for solar/wind/geothermal/nuclear power can only bring good.

Evan! said:

Um, have YOU done any research? If you think that global warming and green products are "crap" then I would guess that you haven't either.

I can't stand people on either side of the debate who make unfounded unqualified absolute statements about the subject. I lie somewhere in the middle: the scaremongors like Al Gore are part of a concerted effort to frighten the people by cherry-picking facts and laying doomsday scenarios. The other side is populated largely by wholesale deniers who approach the issue with a position and then try to justify that position by ranting about hwo global warming is a myth.

What I can't figure out is why more people can't approach the issue with an open mind and no preconceptions and base their position on the facts and evidence. Both sides are guilty here.

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Bingo, any person who cares to do their own research will see that, yes, the climate has indeed risen, but no, we're not all going to die tomorrow. Yes, there are some things we could change, but no, we dont have to give up every livelyhood in the process.

Actually, I don't understand why you are debating the subject anyway...the world's going to tip on it's axis again in 2012 and Mexico will be at the North Pole again...run for the high ground...

Regardless of your opinions about global warming, is it such a bad thing to reduce the amount of crap we put into our air, ground & water???

DaveyBoy said:

Regardless of your opinions about global warming, is it such a bad thing to reduce the amount of crap we put into our air, ground & water???

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Well, that is a completely different discussion actually. GW refers to carbon emissions only. There is a whole plethora of emissions that are pollutants that are not related to GW. I don't think there are many people who think that less pollution is a bad thing.

Can we talk about the merits of commercial organic produce instead?

Propoganda is everywhere and it's hard to get away from it. It's hard because we rely on the popular media for most of our information and their prime motivation is to get and keep your attention, not to keep you accurately informed. In order to really understand any sort of politically charged global issue, you have to acttively search out opposing views to see the other side. If one has already taken a side and is convinced of the truth of it, it's far too easy to wrap one's self in that comfortable position and not explore other possibilities.

I think the_Bird's position is closest to my own in this regard. Data are showing that the change is real. We need to justify whether or not we are a major influence and if we can have any kind of significant impact on reducing the severity of the change.

sure there is such a thing as global warming, it is happening right now!!!

ITS CALLED SPRING

I suppose it was only a matter of time before the "use anecdotal observations in place of long-term scientific data" crowd arrived on the scene. "See, it's snowing in April, there can't be Global Warming!". Then in july when it's 110º, they scurry away and the other side comes out with "See how hot it is! That's because of Global Warming!" Hey, why actually go look up long-term scientific data when I can just walk out on the front porch and extrapolate a global phenomenon based on the conditions outside my front door?!

f*cking YAWN.

Pretty sure it was a joke, Evan!...

Why don't you go get some sleep, you've been working too hard... maybe you need to take a little time off, eh?

EdWort said:

Funny thing since the earth has been cooling for decade, the GW alarmists are spinning it as Climate Change. Look outside, it's raining. Climate Change. Look outside 60 minutes later, the sun is shining. Oh no, climate Change.

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Okay a) it is true the earth has been cooling for a decade, however; the mean temp is still at all time highs when you look over the course of the last several centuries.

b) Global Warming is not a local phenomenon. It is not about whether or not it is raining or snowing or hot or cold in one location at one point in time. It is about a wholesale warming of the earth with all that that entails.

The largest fall out from global warming will not be that NYC is covered in water or the next ice age (as the scare mongers love to harp on), it will be that more and more arable land (you know, the stuff you can grow food on) will be unable to sustain crops. Take a look at what is happening in Australia right now. After 6 years of drought, their rice production is tanking and it is causing a food crisis throughout Asia. These types of events are going to happen more and more throughout the world in the next 50 to 100 years, every single reputable scientist agrees.

And what's the best part of all of this, there is a tipping point, after which no matter what actions we take the effects will be irreversible; by the time the hard-core effects are felt (at which point all the denialists will finally stop being in denial) we will be past this tipping point and it will be too late. The only debate left is when this tipping point will occur; some say it's a ways off, others say we have already past it, either way, it's coming.

My question to all the denialists is this: Why are you so vehement in your opposition? What is it going to cost you to reduce your own carbon imprint that you are so dead set against it, especially when, if you are wrong, it will cost us all everything? Honestly, unless you are an oil executive I just don't get it.

the_bird said:

Pretty sure it was a joke, Evan!...

Why don't you go get some sleep, you've been working too hard... maybe you need to take a little time off, eh?

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bollocks to that Yeah, I'm pulling my hair out with these stupid specs. But you KNOW, every time anyone says word one about GW, EdWort has to make a comment about snow in April.

We've had snow in March!
And it's affecting the organics!

Okay a) it is true the earth has been cooling for a decade, however; the mean temp is still at all time highs when you look over the course of the last several centuries.

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Where's the proof?

b) Global Warming is not a local phenomenon. It is not about whether or not it is raining or snowing or hot or cold in one location at one point in time. It is about a wholesale warming of the earth with all that that entails.

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The earth warms & cools all the time. It's been here much longer than Man has.

The largest fall out from global warming will not be that NYC is covered in water or the next ice age (as the scare mongers love to harp on), it will be that more and more arable land (you know, the stuff you can grow food on) will be unable to sustain crops. Take a look at what is happening in Australia right now. After 6 years of drought, their rice production is tanking and it is causing a food crisis throughout Asia. These types of events are going to happen more and more throughout the world in the next 50 to 100 years, every single reputable scientist agrees.

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Sorry, consensus among a few scientists is not science. There are many that do not agree. Ever think how much of the food crisis can be blamed on bio fuels and Ethanol production? My tax dollars go to American farmers with the express purpose of them NOT to farm their land. Why do we do that?

And what's the best part of all of this, there is a tipping point, after which no matter what actions we take the effects will be irreversible; by the time the hard-core effects are felt (at which point all the denialists will finally stop being in denial) we will be past this tipping point and it will be too late. The only debate left is when this tipping point will occur; some say it's a ways off, others say we have already past it, either way, it's coming.

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We've heard it all before when the ice age was coming. We're still waiting.

My question to all the denialists is this: Why are you so vehement in your opposition? What is it going to cost you to reduce your own carbon imprint that you are so dead set against it, especially when, if you are wrong, it will cost us all everything? Honestly, unless you are an oil executive I just don't get it.

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Because if it is not contested, it will continue to erode our freedoms and libertys while lining the pockets of the people perpetrating this scam.

I'm all for conserving, but don't force me to buy a certain type of lightbulb. Don't tell me that my exhalations are considered a pollutant, don't tell me to drive a certain kind of car, or raise taxes on gasoline, or increase interest rates on a mortage because a house has a certain number of square feet. It's all a way of controlling the masses. They want to change behavior through taxes and it's BS.

We would be much better off spending our time & effort helping people and developing countries learn to adapt to the changing climate instead of believing mankind has any chance of actually impacting climate change.

Whatever we do won't make any significant impact when the biggests culprit (China) goes on unchecked. It won't do anything besides making a few people very rich while hamstringing our economy.

I have planted trees, shrubs & hops this year and AlGore's Carbon footprint is the size of Rhode Island.

Well said Ed.

Everyone has to read this article if you're a disbeliever.

+1 Ed........

When the last ice age ended it was because of global warming, the cavemen tried to stop it, but they couldn't. The low emmision campfires didn't work, killing off the mammoths to reduce methane emmisions didn't work, and switching to smaller more energy efficient pack animals didn't work.

I have no problem with doing postive things for the environment, but it has to be balanced with our right to live in something besides the frickin stone age.

The green movement is just as much a giant money-making scam as anything else. People in poor countries are rioting because their food prices are high because we would rather turn corn into fuel than food. Do you really think the people who design any of that crap care what happens as long as they can charge you more for an "energy-efficient" product?

In my opinion the die hard environmentalist movement causes more harm to the enviroment that the normal person just trying to make ends meet.

Another question. Not saying that 6 BILLION people aren't having some negative impact on the earth, but what in the heck caused global warming and cooling millions of years ago on a scale the makes the "current situation" pale in comparison?

Lastly, think about all of the energy used for homebrewing, the electricity, gas for boiling and trips to the LHBS, the destruction of natural habitat to grow grain and hops, and the water usage for something you don't really need. So if you really care about global warming and want to make a difference I guess you should go pour your primary into the compost pile and quit brewing (and drinking that enviromental destroying beverage).`

Don't forget the media's role in spreading the mantra.



This is a disgrace and insult to every serviceman in America.

Is that a real cover Ed? I find it HARD to believe that such an upstanding piece of journalism like the "Times" would be so disrespectful to our service men/women while trying to push their own agenda.....

I always love the comment, "but the temperature has been rising for centuries!" Huh, I believe accurate weather records have only been kept for the last 150-200 years or so, not near long enough to paint an accurate picture of a massive event such as GW or climate change.

The Jaded Dog said:

My question to all the denialists is this: Why are you so vehement in your opposition? What is it going to cost you to reduce your own carbon imprint that you are so dead set against it, especially when, if you are wrong, it will cost us all everything? Honestly, unless you are an oil executive I just don't get it.

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Its the same reason that atheists/the religious are so vocal about their positions, its the "I'm right, I am going to say it as loud as I can" complex. I mean in that respect, if you decide to believe in a god and practice a religion and you are right, it works out well in the end. If you are wrong, what did you lose? A couple hours on a Sunday for your life? Were you going to do anything BETTER with your time? So in those regards it doesn't HURT anything to go to church and believe in a God, but that isn't going to convince every atheist to go seeking religion now is it?

Sorry, don't mean to start a religion debate, this is just the best example i could think of off hand.

deathweed said:

Is that a real cover Ed? I find it HARD to believe that such an upstanding piece of journalism like the "Times" would be so disrespectful to our service men/women while trying to push their own agenda.....

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Yep. Here's a better pic.




http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20080428,00.html

The news media have a definitive agenda when it comes to climate change. With few exceptions, reports assume man is primarily responsible for global warming, ignore or undermine critics, and promote government intervention to save the planet from this threat.

In fact, the media have a long history of promoting climate-related cataclysmic scenarios. As the Business & Media Institute detailed in the Special Report Fire & Ice, there have been four different warnings of climate doom heralded by the media in the past century: cooling, warming, cooling, warming.

Just as the media unconditionally accept the “consensus” position right now – that the earth is warming, it is mankind’s fault and something must be done to stop it – journalists reacted in the same manner in the 1970s regarding global cooling.

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TheJadedDog said:

My question to all the denialists is this: Why are you so vehement in your opposition? What is it going to cost you to reduce your own carbon imprint that you are so dead set against it, especially when, if you are wrong, it will cost us all everything? Honestly, unless you are an oil executive I just don't get it.

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please don't tell me that you sent money to Gore for your carbon offsets..

EdWort said:

Yep. Here's a better pic.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20080428,00.html

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oh cool! Time magazine is going green now.. cause they have a green cover.. good for them! Doing something for the environment!

haha

At least nobody reads Time anymore, so they aren't killing as many trees as they used to!

I am tired of the debate all together....

Some people say it doesn't exist, the Carbon Dioxide is a product of raised temperatures not the other way around.

Some people say, "WE'RE KILLING THE PLANET!".

Some people say, no it's the earth that emits more 'greenhouse gasses'.


Let's put it this way, There's a million different variables, the earth is an Open System, look it up along with scientific method.

NONE of these THEORIES have been proven therefore everyone needs to stop bickering about this bullcrap and get down to proving one or the other. You CANNOT look at one scientific fact and base bullcrap off of it.

I'll say it again, These are all THEORIES! You can not prove something is fact without scientific theory, which is almost impossible to do with an Open System like the earth.

There is actually no way to measure the Carbon Dioxide output of the earth to compare it with man's output. The historical record is well crap because so many things can occur.

DeadYetiBrew said:

NONE of these THEORIES have been proven therefore everyone needs to stop bickering about this bullcrap and get down to proving one or the other. You CANNOT look at one scientific fact and base bullcrap off of it.

I'll say it again, These are all THEORIES! You can not prove something is fact without scientific theory, which is almost impossible to do with an Open System like the earth.

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Actually they are HYPOTHESES, theories have been tested time and time again, and are only one step from law. Current "only theories" today include matter, gravity, a heliocentric universe, and evolution. While these may be "only theories, they have held true against rigorous testing, and whole fields of science have been devoted to them, let alone, being taught as "fact" at most schools and universities that are worth their salt. On the other hand, GW is a HYPOTHESIS, meaning it is merely an idea that hasn't been rigorously tested yet. But you are right, it is FAR from fact.

Hey, why actually go look up long-term scientific data

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I find it interesting that there are folks who, while discussing the earth's climate, consider the existing scientific data to be long term.

Rick

It warmed 40 degrees today from this morning to now. Uh Oh.

It warmed 40 degrees today from this morning to now. Uh Oh.

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I stand corrected on my long-term data comment.

Rick

I guess that's OK, cause it will cool 40 degrees tonight till tomorrow morning.

it's amazing how the climate changes from day to day, week to week, month to month. Could it be just a natural phenomena?

10,000 years ago most of the US was covered in glaciers. 65 million years ago most of the southeasten US was covered by a shallow sea. I am guessing the climate was changing durring these times, as well as little things like plates shifting.... But hey, a couple decades of temperature readings I guess make us experts on global climate trends....

MikeFlynn74 said:

Im not sure about the GW but I do know that the push for solar/wind/geothermal/nuclear power can only bring good.

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nuclear is the key word there and that is it