Simple Yeast Storage Procedure

Doesn't it make sense instead of washing to just take portions of the starter and pour into Mason jars for next batches? And before pitching those retake a part of it? Maybe to take yeast after fermentation can help in selecting more floculent or more attenuation yeast...

Finlandbrews said:

Doesn't it make sense instead of washing to just take portions of the starter and pour into Mason jars for next batches? And before pitching those retake a part of it? Maybe to take yeast after fermentation can help in selecting more floculent or more attenuation yeast...

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But if you are harvesting plenty of yeast from the fermenter, why even make a starter? You don't need to grow more.

Vitality Starters aren't a bad idea, just to wake them up.

http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/29/ye...e-cell-count-vs-vitality-exbeeriment-results/

Question: when saving and storing yeast by this method can/should you only reuse it in beers of similar style/ call for the same strands of yeast? Or does it matter?

I ask because as I'm still fairly new home brewer. 5 batches. Each batch has been a new style, therefore different yeast strands. I haven't Brewed consistent styles so haven't had need for same Yeast . Thanks

BeavStu said:

Question: when saving and storing yeast by this method can/should you only reuse it in beers of similar style/ call for the same strands of yeast? Or does it matter?

I ask because as I'm still fairly new home brewer. 5 batches. Each batch has been a new style, therefore different yeast strands. I haven't Brewed consistent styles so haven't had need for same Yeast . Thanks

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You can reuse yeast in different styles no problem. Some say not to use yeast harvested from a dark beer and pitch into a light beer, but you're using so little of it that it's not a problem at all. Some say not to reuse yeast from hoppy beers too, but that's generally fine. The only thing I try to avoid is pitching yeast from a high gravity beer into a low gravity beer. The fear is the yeast may be unhealthy or stall out. Other that that, I would just go for it and make sure you pitch the appropriate amount of yeast.

Aside from that, sounds like you're asking if you can cross styles of yeast? Nothing BAD will happen, it's just entirely taste dependent. For me using a Belgian yeast in an IPA is terrible, some people love that though.

When you guys said, unwashed yeast should be used within * days or max * weeks I was always wondering, then what about harvesting yeast from commercially obtained beer? Unwashed yeast had been sitting there under pretty much stress, plus CO2 pressure, uncertain temperature and all that.
So I saved some unwashed US-05 yeast from my brew kegged on 25th Oct (150 ml of beer just as it came from the fermenter, left for a day with loose cover to off-gas, then tightened and refrigerated) and plated it on 30th Dec.

Under microscope it was all death and devastation. Maybe one live cell to a few hundred dead; no budding cells. Altogether looking at it was sorta depressive.

I stuck it into incubator for about 80+ hours at 25C.
By now there are 3 plates:
one with no growth at all - this was taken from liquid fraction;
one with some massive but ugly discolored growth - taken from the cake;
and one with some reasonable growth - taken after shaking up the jar and letting it sit for a few minutes.
I'm not really willing to try to brew my next batch on this yeast as there is still risk that it has been too stressed or has high percent of mutations, or whatever.
But is there a less risky way to check whether this yeast is still workable?
I have fresh liquid yeast at hand so I'm not desperate for yeast, just want to know it just in case. I feel too lazy to set up a mini-batch but if I could try on a pint of unhopped 1040 DME I probably would go ahead. Do you think this way would be able to prove any point?

Thanks!

Sure, why not boil the DME for 15-20 minutes with a few hop pellets in it and throw it in a jar to ferment?

You could probably determine something about it from the resultant beer.

GQT said:

When you guys said, unwashed yeast should be used within * days or max * weeks I was always wondering, then what about harvesting yeast from commercially obtained beer? Unwashed yeast had been sitting there under pretty much stress, plus CO2 pressure, uncertain temperature and all that.
So I saved some unwashed US-05 yeast from my brew kegged on 25th Oct (150 ml of beer just as it came from the fermenter, left for a day with loose cover to off-gas, then tightened and refrigerated) and plated it on 30th Dec.

Under microscope it was all death and devastation. Maybe one live cell to a few hundred dead; no budding cells. Altogether looking at it was sorta depressive.

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Not sure I'm following. Was this yeast harvested from the primary and put in cold storage right after racking, or did you just pull some beer from your keg? If the latter I'm guessing this would make all the difference in cell health. I've bottle harvested a couple times from commercial beers and takeoff was really slow requiring multiple starter step-ups. I'm guessing there were only a few cells per hundred alive, but what struck me was how the yeast bounced back. Its pretty voracious stuff and out-competes just about anything else (usually). Its wise to use good practices of course, but even used and abused it keeps doing its thing. Reminds me of that Chumbawamba song Tubthumping. You know... "I get knocked down, I get up again. Never gonna keep me down".

Ha! The next time I hear that tune, I'll be thinking of beer yeast now.

Yesfan said:

Ha! The next time I hear that tune, I'll be thinking of beer yeast now.

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And you'll have that song virus all day today too

rhys333 said:

harvested from the primary?

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Precondary... Primary and secondary. I don't secondary my brews. What I saved was the scums sitting in the very bottom of my conical. When the beer that was flowing into the keg got too cloudy I disconnected the keg and redirected the flow to fill up a few jars. So it had never been in any other vessel, just fermenter and jars. Sterile transfer, no oxidation, no contact with atmospheric air - pressed out of fermenter by some gentle push of Midisart2000-filtered CO2; jars were flushed with same sterile CO2 as well. Nearly no trub there, I shut it off at the first signs of unwanted particles in the stream.

NeoBrew said:

boil the DME for 15-20 minutes with a few hop pellets in it and throw it in a jar to ferment

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Yeah probably this is what I'm going to do. Not that I expect much of yeasty taste, after all US-05 has never been known for taste, but it'd be interesting to see the speed and character of fermentation. This yeast really doesn't give up, so it clearly deserves its chance!

GQT said:

Precondary... Primary and secondary. I don't secondary my brews. What I saved was the scums sitting in the very bottom of my conical. When the beer that was flowing into the keg got too cloudy I disconnected the keg and redirected the flow to fill up a few jars. So it had never been in any other vessel, just fermenter and jars. Sterile transfer, no oxidation, no contact with atmospheric air - pressed out of fermenter by some gentle push of Midisart2000-filtered CO2; jars were flushed with same sterile CO2 as well. Nearly no trub there, I shut it off at the first signs of unwanted particles in the stream.


Yeah probably this is what I'm going to do. Not that I expect much of yeasty taste, after all US-05 has never been known for taste, but it'd be interesting to see the speed and character of fermentation. This yeast really doesn't give up, so it clearly deserves its chance!

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Perhaps you picked up a rough layer. When people yeast harvest as above they tend to swirl and get an even mix. It's also possible that the conical shape caused more pressure to be exerted on the cake, damaging some cells. How long was it in primary?

tagz said:

Perhaps you picked up a rough layer. When people yeast harvest as above they tend to swirl and get an even mix. It's also possible that the conical shape caused more pressure to be exerted on the cake, damaging some cells. How long was it in primary?

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Kegged on day 17. Drinkable right away but sat in the fridge for another 20+ days while I was on trip.
There was hardly any pressure on cake, 5 gallon batch, not really that heavy. But the yeast was in the fridge for 2 months, perhaps that is what mattered.

GQT said:

Kegged on day 17. Drinkable right away but sat in the fridge for another 20+ days while I was on trip.
There was hardly any pressure on cake, 5 gallon batch, not really that heavy. But the yeast was in the fridge for 2 months, perhaps that is what mattered.

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Based on the OP's findings I estimate 50% cell loss in 3 months (or about 17% per month). Anything over two months I make a small starter.

I started only storing 1 jar of each yeast type at a time, other than that I will just scoop out a portion of the cake and pitch the new batch onto the cake. Don't have the storage space for more than a couple at a time. I found the Wide Mouth Mason jars with the plastic re-usable lids work great.

I do have 1 jar of S-04 that I keep having to Gas, it's need in the fridge for a month now and I still have to de-gas... Really weird...

GQT said:

Kegged on day 17. Drinkable right away but sat in the fridge for another 20+ days while I was on trip.

There was hardly any pressure on cake, 5 gallon batch, not really that heavy. But the yeast was in the fridge for 2 months, perhaps that is what mattered.

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Well something doesn't add up. On a standard batch you'd have about 50% viability, which is far from death and destruction. I just made a starter from a 2 month old jar and it took off no problem. Pitched it on a batch and it had a solid krausen in 12 hrs.

tagz said:

Well something doesn't add up. On a standard batch you'd have about 50% viability, which is far from death and destruction. I just made a starter from a 2 month old jar and it took off no problem. Pitched it on a batch and it had a solid krausen in 12 hrs.

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Out of curiosity, how much slurry do you use when doing a starter? I tend to use approximately half the estimated cells in old slurry and build up the other half of new cells with the starter.

tagz said:

Well something doesn't add up. On a standard batch you'd have about 50% viability, which is far from death and destruction. I just made a starter from a 2 month old jar and it took off no problem. Pitched it on a batch and it had a solid krausen in 12 hrs.

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I do feel about the same. Perhaps I screwed smth up on the way. No contamination but might be some wrong temperatures or too high alcohol level (this particular brew went all the way down to 1003 resulting in pretty high ~8% abv, that was also one of the reason I wanted to keep the yeast. otherwise why would I store cheap and easily available US-05).
Anyway, I am now trying to see how it works on a pico-batch of 400 ml DME +1 pellet of old Cascade, and if it is OK I will slant it for future use in case I need dry and high-spirited beer.

GQT said:

I do feel about the same. Perhaps I screwed smth up on the way. No contamination but might be some wrong temperatures or too high alcohol level (this particular brew went all the way down to 1003 resulting in pretty high ~8% abv, that was also one of the reason I wanted to keep the yeast. otherwise why would I store cheap and easily available US-05).
Anyway, I am now trying to see how it works on a pico-batch of 400 ml DME +1 pellet of old Cascade, and if it is OK I will slant it for future use in case I need dry and high-spirited beer.

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I've heard of US05 getting 85% attenuation with a low mash temp, but it sounds like you just got 95%. Somethings got to be way off with that batch of yeast if you're sure of the gravity reading.

rhys333 said:

I've heard of US05 getting 85% attenuation with a low mash temp, but it sounds like you just got 95%. Somethings got to be way off with that batch of yeast if you're sure of the gravity reading.

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Nah not my case.
Mashing was perfect and all the rest also was pretty good but I left for a trip during the final stage and missed the proper FG when time came to shove the whole thing into the fridge and stop fermentation. Automatics was programmed to rise the temperature to 22C for one day, thendown to 21, then 20 (normally it was 18) at the end. So it did, and I was not around to interfere. So the yeast had a kick at the time it'd normally fall out and fall asleep, and gnarled at the wort to the last molecule of sugars. Good job though. It was a funny beer: almost no taste but huge blast of hop aroma, and a heavy alcohol hammer beating on the unsuspecting drinker's head. I liked it for the fun of it

Awesome post, really helpful. The pictures are superb. I forgot to collect my yeast precipitate when I racked to my fermenter, but I think there will be enough when I rack to my bottles. It's just simple Ale yeast, but I'd like to build my collection. Thanx for the cool stuff!

I have a question for the mr.malty numbers - its says i need about 250 billion cells and the simple yeast procedure states around 300 billion cells per mason jar.

My question: I read a comment from a master brewer that you should overshoot the mr.matly numbers by %50.

Is this the consensus?

Without looking back through all the posts, I cannot confirm or deny that a master brewer made that comment.
What I can confirm is that there is a concensus that a 50% overpitch will most likely NOT result in any negative effects on your beer.
I would not intentionally try to overshoot the calculated pitch rate by 50% if it were me.

The only real downside I've seen to an overpitch is reduced ester production. Of you have an ester heavy beer like a hefe, Belgian or a saison then an overpitch becomes more of an issue. Otherwise it seems fine, but as stated above, I wouldn't target it.

brewkinger said:

Without looking back through all the posts, I cannot confirm or deny that a master brewer made that comment.
What I can confirm is that there is a concensus that a 50% overpitch will most likely NOT result in any negative effects on your beer.
I would not intentionally try to overshoot the calculated pitch rate by 50% if it were me.

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It was a really old post (2008) - not sure of forum etiquette so i won't post it. Thats one thing i'm noticing about the search function you get a lot of old posts.

But yeah thanks i'll just go with one mason jar - I've re-used yeast a few times before but never used mr.malty.

How much slurry needs to be used to ferment, say, a 5 gallon batch of mead ?

Just so I'm 100% clear on this...

Regarding freezing. By 10% glycerol does that mean the total volume should contain 10% of a 100% glycerol solution, or is it a case of add a few drops of 10% glycerol solution to the slurry?

Scenario A:
900ml slurry + 100ml 100% glycerin solution

Scenario B;
1Ltr Curry + x ml 10% glycerin solution

I'm guessing it's scenario b but would just like to make sure!

Cheers

BandonBrewingCo said:

Just so I'm 100% clear on this...

Regarding freezing. By 10% glycerol does that mean the total volume should contain 10% of a 100% glycerol solution, or is it a case of add a few drops of 10% glycerol solution to the slurry?

Scenario A:
900ml slurry + 100ml 100% glycerin solution

Scenario B;
1Ltr Curry + x ml 10% glycerin solution

I'm guessing it's scenario b but would just like to make sure!

Cheers

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Scenery A is closer to what you want to do. I've been using for 15% however,

This is how I do it with 50 ml bottles.
1. Fill 50 ml bottle with 25 ml yeast slurry.
2. Make 25 ml of 30% glycerin solution (7.5 ml of 100% glycerin + 17.5 ml water)
3. Microwave glycerin solution until it is boiling. Then cool it to 70 degrees.
4. Then add 25 ml glycerine solution to 25 ml yeast slurry. This dilutes the 30% to 15% glycerine in your final solution.

The reason for first making the 30% solution is because glycerin viscous and difficult to pour/measure out. It's easier to measure and sterilize if you thin it up first with a bit of water.

And one more question if I may be so bold.

Let's say a friend of mine brewed some Kölsch with wYeast kölsch yeast (13-19C range) but during the fermentation the wort temps fluctuated between the full 13-19 resulting in off flavours...

Would it be a waste of time to harvest that yeast or is it only the by products of the yeast that are bad?

BandonBrewingCo said:

And one more question if I may be so bold.

Let's say a friend of mine brewed some Kölsch with wYeast kölsch yeast (13-19C range) but during the fermentation the wort temps fluctuated between the full 13-19 resulting in off flavours...

Would it be a waste of time to harvest that yeast or is it only the by products of the yeast that are bad?

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The yeast are still healthy as long as temp is the only variable in that equation. Harvest away.

Ok, let me see if I have this straight. I have a yeast cake that's been sitting under beer in my fermentor for about 3 months now. Is the viability going to be an issue with that yeast? I'm getting ready to harvest and pitch another beer onto it.

Just kegged my APA with the 2nd use of a 1056 strain and found that I messed up my temperature control during fermentation because I have some crazy banana esters. I harvested the yeast in hopes of using it again.

Is this wise? Since the yeast put out a lot of esters have they changed so they will always do so?

Eiffel said:

Just kegged my APA with the 2nd use of a 1056 strain and found that I messed up my temperature control during fermentation because I have some crazy banana esters. I harvested the yeast in hopes of using it again.

Is this wise? Since the yeast put out a lot of esters have they changed so they will always do so?

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No yeast are good. Just use better temp control next time

tgmartin000 said:

Ok, let me see if I have this straight. I have a yeast cake that's been sitting under beer in my fermentor for about 3 months now. Is the viability going to be an issue with that yeast? I'm getting ready to harvest and pitch another beer onto it.

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The viability will be decreased, but you can still use it without problems. You could always make a starter with the yeast to get them rev'd back up. I've made good beer from yeast cake I had in the fridge for 6 months!

fun4stuff said:

No yeast are good. Just use better temp control next time

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Thanks!

Once I put the jars in the fridge, does the slurry ever pack down? I have a few jars in since last night and the way they look now, it doesn't look like I could decant off any of the liquid. I do get a good separation of liquid and slurry, but when I tilt the jars it all blends together. When I make a starter and put the flask in the fridge over night, I get that packed down yeast so it's easier to decant.

Bulls Beers said:

Once I put the jars in the fridge, does the slurry ever pack down? I have a few jars in since last night and the way they look now, it doesn't look like I could decant off any of the liquid. I do get a good separation of liquid and slurry, but when I tilt the jars it all blends together. When I make a starter and put the flask in the fridge over night, I get that packed down yeast so it's easier to decant.

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Yes, it'll all pack down eventually. Might take a couple days to do so though. I usually get 2/3 to 3/4 jar of yeast after settling.

Agreed. After a week it looks like this.

View attachment 1454642762049.jpg

Very informative and helpful write up. Thanks!