Less Sugar Gives More Carbonation?

I put together a Brown Ale. The first night in the Fermenter, hops plugged my blow-off-tube and sent half of my one gallon batch all over the floor (my wife was not impressed). I was asleep when this happened and only noticed it the following morning (or should I say smelled). I cleaned the bung and hose in sanitizer and resealed the fermenter. I was actively bubbling in the blow-off-bottle within a minute. Apart from the mess and resealing the fermenter, everything seemed to cary on like normal. Once the fermentation slowed, I batch primed the Brown Ale (1.5 teaspoons. I typically use 3 for a full gallon batch) and bottled. I have allowed the beer to age and carb up for 5 weeks before refrigerating for 48hrs. The plastic bottles by this point were rock hard with bulging caps. The first plastic bottle leaked a fair bit of CO2 when opened and as soon as the bottle began tipping, it began to foam out. between a third to one half of the bottle foamed out before stopping. This to me would suggest over carbonation but I used less than half the sugar for previous batches (I used to use 4 teaspoons bottling sugar for a one gallon batch which never did this). The beer that I used to use the 4 teaspoons of bottling sugar in was a richer base malt version of a brown ale (4lbs 5oz Marris Otter and another pound of specialty grains on top of that) which never over carbed like that. More often than not, I ended up waiting longer for that beer to pour a nice head and cascade when poured into a glass. That beer was nicely aged and poured a nice thick head cascading while doing it by 5 weeks. At 4 weeks, that beer still poured a delayed head and hardly any sign of cascading. Is this new Brown Ale acting this was due to being exposed to oxygen during the early fermenting stages for who know how long? I have made a few more batches which are all bottled and are full batches with 3 teaspoons bottling sugar and no blow-overs. They too have rock hard plastic bottles with bulging caps. This Brown Ale only has 2lbs and 4oz Marris Otter, could the lighter base require less bottling sugar?

Any suggestions are appreciated,

NavyMarine1978

Did I understand that fermentation was not complete when you primed and bottled?

Once the fermentation slowed, I batch primed the Brown Ale (1.5 teaspoons. I typically use 3 for a full gallon batch) and bottled.

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your grain bill will not really affect carbonation. beer that is not fully fermented can over carbonate with whatever sugar you add to the bottles. an infection can also cause gushers.

helibrewer said:

Did I understand that fermentation was not complete when you primed and bottled?

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Sorry, The fermentation had stopped. I did not word that properly.

NavyMarine1978

eastoak said:

your grain bill will not really affect carbonation. beer that is not fully fermented can over carbonate with whatever sugar you add to the bottles. an infection can also cause gushers.

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The fermentation had ended. There was no longer any activity and reached a final gravity of 1.065 for 3 days. I am more concerned that once the bung/hose blew off the fermenter, that either the exposure to the air, for however long that was, or the towel used to wrap the fermenter which ended up laying across the mouth of the fermenter contaminated the batch. The beer tastes fine but it is also heavily hopped and may mask any slight sourness or off flavour. Can a beer be contaminated and taste like it is?

NavyMarine1978

"There was no longer any activity and reached a final gravity of 1.065 for 3 days"

Huh?

NavyMarine1978 said:

The fermentation had ended. There was no longer any activity and reached a final gravity of 1.065 for 3 days. I am more concerned that once the bung/hose blew off the fermenter, that either the exposure to the air, for however long that was, or the towel used to wrap the fermenter which ended up laying across the mouth of the fermenter contaminated the batch. The beer tastes fine but it is also heavily hopped and may mask any slight sourness or off flavour. Can a beer be contaminated and taste like it is?

NavyMarine1978

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Please do not take offense, just trying to help

Please read through the thread you started and try to provide the following:
1. Batch Size
2. Original gravity
3. Final gravity
4. Actual amount of priming sugar and method of priming

Your thread is somewhat disjointed and your answers are not quite clear so it's a little difficult to get a read on how to help. My first take is you mis typed the FG because 1.065 is more like an OG. Your priming method is questionable at best and the fact that your bottles are rock hard and the caps are bulging is a concern as they may ultimately explode.

My initial take is that these bottles are way over primed and over carbonated and that is why you are getting huge gushers but you need to help us out a bit more in the details.

Typically when you have a blow-out like that, that means there is a lot of CO2 rushing out, which typically prevents anything else from getting in. So likely that wasn't the real issue. Agree with the others so far, sounds like you still had residual fermenting sugars.

unionrdr said:

Did you test it as completely fermented? Or bubbling stopped? Stupid question,but it has been done before. Or stalling out before it knocks off those last couple of points...

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The final gravity was read on day one and day three. The fermentation was complete for these three days according to my hydrometer. That final gravity was also the target gravity reading that came with the recipe. Is this what you asked?

billl said:

"There was no longer any activity and reached a final gravity of 1.065 for 3 days"

Huh?

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Sorry about the wording. There was no longer any visual signs or evidence of active fermentation and the gravity reading had reached the target as listed in the recipe.

NavyMarine1978 said:

Sorry about the wording. There was no longer any visual signs or evidence of active fermentation and the gravity reading had reached the target as listed in the recipe.

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Part of the confusion is your gravity reading. You stated 1.065 for 3 days,that would be a good starting gravity but not a final gravity.Did you take readings after fermentation?

NavyMarine1978 said:

The final gravity was read on day one and day three. The fermentation was complete for these three days according to my hydrometer. That final gravity was also the target gravity reading that came with the recipe. Is this what you asked?

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Day 1 reading would be the starting gravity, not final gravity. Please go back and read my first response and take the time to answer the questions, otherwise we are all quite confused because what you've stated so far doesn't make any sense.

duboman said:

Please do not take offense, just trying to help

Please read through the thread you started and try to provide the following:
1. Batch Size
2. Original gravity
3. Final gravity
4. Actual amount of priming sugar and method of priming

Your thread is somewhat disjointed and your answers are not quite clear so it's a little difficult to get a read on how to help. My first take is you mis typed the FG because 1.065 is more like an OG. Your priming method is questionable at best and the fact that your bottles are rock hard and the caps are bulging is a concern as they may ultimately explode.

My initial take is that these bottles are way over primed and over carbonated and that is why you are getting huge gushers but you need to help us out a bit more in the details.

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Sorry about that. Here are the details hopefully more clear:

Batch size= 1 Gallon (4 Litres)
OG = 1.065 (I had accidentally recorded my OG as the FG)
FG = 1.020 (I had this reading over 3 days before bottling)
Priming = Batch primed using 1.5 tsp (about 5G Dextrose )

I hope this clarifies everything.

NavyMarine1978 said:

Sorry about that. Here are the details hopefully more clear:

Batch size= 1 Gallon (4 Litres)
OG = 1.065 (I had accidentally recorded my OG as the FG)
FG = 1.020 (I had this reading over 3 days before bottling)
Priming = Batch primed using 1.5 tsp (about 5G Dextrose )

I hope this clarifies everything.

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Thank you! This all makes a lot more sense now

According to my calculations for the one gallon batch you brewed you should have used .77oz/21.8grams of priming sugar to prime your beer to 2.3 volumes of CO2. IME and recommended practice is to weigh out priming sugar as it is more exact than measuring with teaspoons or cups. There can be a large variance in the amount measured.

The fact that the beer finished at 1.020 is relatively common with extract beer. There is a possibility that it was not finished fermenting but it's hard to say and determine at this point.

From the problem you are having it appears that you with your measuring you over primed the beer resulting in over carbonation. That being said I would recommend that you leave the beer in the fridge for more than 48 hours. This will allow the carbonation more time to be fully absorbed by the beer and decrease the chances of it gushing out. Sometimes what happens is the CO2 stays in the head space and once the cap is removed the release of this pressure causes the beer to gush out.

In the future I would use a small kitchen scale to weigh out the sugar so you are certain to use the proper amount. General rule of thumb is .75-1oz priming sugar per gallon of Finished product. So... if you brew a 1 gallon batch but only have .75 gallons to bottle then prime to .75 gallons, not 1.

There still is the small chance you have developed an infection that could also cause the gushing but if the beer smells and tastes fine then it is probably not the issue.

Hope this all helps. In the future when problems arise please be sure to be as detailed as possible. Recipe, OG, FG, process, Temperatures, etc all are really necessary to help diagnose problems.

Listen to duboman. This is the advice you need.

duboman said:

Thank you! This all makes a lot more sense now

According to my calculations for the one gallon batch you brewed you should have used .77oz/21.8grams of priming sugar to prime your beer to 2.3 volumes of CO2. IME and recommended practice is to weigh out priming sugar as it is more exact than measuring with teaspoons or cups. There can be a large variance in the amount measured.

The fact that the beer finished at 1.020 is relatively common with extract beer. There is a possibility that it was not finished fermenting but it's hard to say and determine at this point.

From the problem you are having it appears that you with your measuring you over primed the beer resulting in over carbonation. That being said I would recommend that you leave the beer in the fridge for more than 48 hours. This will allow the carbonation more time to be fully absorbed by the beer and decrease the chances of it gushing out. Sometimes what happens is the CO2 stays in the head space and once the cap is removed the release of this pressure causes the beer to gush out.

In the future I would use a small kitchen scale to weigh out the sugar so you are certain to use the proper amount. General rule of thumb is .75-1oz priming sugar per gallon of Finished product. So... if you brew a 1 gallon batch but only have .75 gallons to bottle then prime to .75 gallons, not 1.

There still is the small chance you have developed an infection that could also cause the gushing but if the beer smells and tastes fine then it is probably not the issue.

Hope this all helps. In the future when problems arise please be sure to be as detailed as possible. Recipe, OG, FG, process, Temperatures, etc all are really necessary to help diagnose problems.

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I really appreciate all of the advice. I will be sure to weigh out the bottling sugar. How do you go about measuring the actual remaining amount after fermentation completes? I roughly know what a full gallon looks like in the fermenter but, that is rough and there is still sediment on the bottom.

A side note on my third and final beer from this batch, it poured perfectly fine pouring a nice thick head and even a cascade. This bottle was also a flip-top glass bottle and the other two plastic. I now have a new batch ready which was otherwise identical to this batch only no losses due to blown-off fermenter tops. I bottled and batch primed them all the same way. I will let you know how the new batches turned out.

Thank you

How do you go about measuring the actual remaining amount after fermentation completes? I roughly know what a full gallon looks like in the fermenter but, that is rough and there is still sediment on the bottom

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When your vessel is empty use a vessel like a pitcher with a known and accurate volume, fill with water and add to your fermenter, make a mark designating the volume and continue the process until you have filled the vessel. So add 1 gallon, mark it off, add another gallon, mark it off and so on. THis way when you have your wort/beer in the vessel you can simply look at your calibration marks and determine how much is in there. You should have this set up on all vessels you use as it makes measuring a breeze

How do you go about measuring the actual remaining amount after fermentation completes? I roughly know what a full gallon looks like in the fermenter but, that is rough and there is still sediment on the bottom

Click to expand...

When your vessel is empty use a vessel like a pitcher with a known and accurate volume, fill with water and add to your fermenter, make a mark designating the volume and continue the process until you have filled the vessel. So add 1 gallon, mark it off, add another gallon, mark it off and so on. THis way when you have your wort/beer in the vessel you can simply look at your calibration marks and determine how much is in there. You should have this set up on all vessels you use as it makes measuring a breeze

unionrdr said:

For a OG 1.065,1.014-1.018 FG would be the average range expected. I think some of you are boiling LME's too much,or pitching poor quality yeast & maybe even too warm getting 1.020 FG's like that. Had that problem briefly once. And I've used Cooper's,Munton's LD Carlson,Briesse. Plain & pre-hopped,LME & DME. Extra light to amber & dark.
And now grains. I just don't see the 1.020 curse as being very common where a good process is involved.
And all the priming calculators go by weight,not volume. So a $20 walmart digital scale is in order.

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Thank you again. I am very new to brewing in general and started out extract and now brew all-grain. Do you have a calculation to figure out what the final gravity should be? You mentioned using a good process, I am still using the grain in bag method and have been using 165 F for strike water temp and sparging temp. I start with a Gallon and 1 litre of sparge water at 165 F, I place my grain bag in the pot and dump my grains in. I stir to ensure full saturation and dough clumps and take a temp reading. If the sparge is not 155 F with grains in, I use some strike water at the same 165 F and add it to the soaking grains until I have achieved 155 F. I soak the grain for 1 hour with the lid on insulated with wood. I remove the bag and allow for gravity drainage before placing the bag with grains into the strike water which is 163 F, stir the grains and soak again with lid for 15 mins. With my sparging complete, I combine the second runnings with the first runnings and place on the stove on a high heat to bring to a rolling boil as quickly as I can. At boil, I add my bittering hops (20g of either Nugget at 13% AA or Fuggles at 5% AA depending on my recipe) and boil for one hour. At one hour, I have prepared my dry yeast (Danstar Windsor British Ale Yeast) in a cup of sterile water at 34-35 C and the pot of boiled wort is removed form the stove into a sink of cold water. I stir the pot well and drain the sink (the surface water has warmed) and refill the sink with cold water. I wait for the surface to warm and take a temp reading. By this point, the pot has fallen in temp from a boil down to low 40's Celsius. A bit more stirring and the wort is at 34 C. I add my hydrated yeast which I stir into the pot of wort, take OG reading, and pour into my sterilized fermenter and airlock is put on. I place in a dark closet and wrap with a towel to insulate and keep dark.

Does this sound reasonable?

Thank you,

NavyMarine1978

i have absolutely no input on your topic

but, with that screen-name, were you (by chance) a Navy Corpsman?

NavyMarine1978 said:

Thank you again. I am very new to brewing in general and started out extract and now brew all-grain. Do you have a calculation to figure out what the final gravity should be? You mentioned using a good process, I am still using the grain in bag method and have been using 165 F for strike water temp and sparging temp. I start with a Gallon and 1 litre of sparge water at 165 F, I place my grain bag in the pot and dump my grains in. I stir to ensure full saturation and dough clumps and take a temp reading. If the sparge is not 155 F with grains in, I use some strike water at the same 165 F and add it to the soaking grains until I have achieved 155 F. I soak the grain for 1 hour with the lid on insulated with wood. I remove the bag and allow for gravity drainage before placing the bag with grains into the strike water which is 163 F, stir the grains and soak again with lid for 15 mins. With my sparging complete, I combine the second runnings with the first runnings and place on the stove on a high heat to bring to a rolling boil as quickly as I can. At boil, I add my bittering hops (20g of either Nugget at 13% AA or Fuggles at 5% AA depending on my recipe) and boil for one hour. At one hour, I have prepared my dry yeast (Danstar Windsor British Ale Yeast) in a cup of sterile water at 34-35 C and the pot of boiled wort is removed form the stove into a sink of cold water. I stir the pot well and drain the sink (the surface water has warmed) and refill the sink with cold water. I wait for the surface to warm and take a temp reading. By this point, the pot has fallen in temp from a boil down to low 40's Celsius. A bit more stirring and the wort is at 34 C. I add my hydrated yeast which I stir into the pot of wort, take OG reading, and pour into my sterilized fermenter and airlock is put on. I place in a dark closet and wrap with a towel to insulate and keep dark.

Does this sound reasonable?

Thank you,

NavyMarine1978

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Sounds fine,except for the 34C wort temp at pitch time. After the initial cool down with just cold water,I drain that,BK back into sink. Fill sink to brim with ice & top that off with cold water. Getting the wort down to about 70F (21.1C) to be closer to the average ale yeast's temp range. I take it you don't add top off water?

dadshomebrewing said:

i have absolutely no input on your topic

but, with that screen-name, were you (by chance) a Navy Corpsman?

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I am a member of the Royal Canadian Navy as a Naval Weapons Technician.

unionrdr said:

Sounds fine,except for the 34C wort temp at pitch time. After the initial cool down with just cold water,I drain that,BK back into sink. Fill sink to brim with ice & top that off with cold water. Getting the wort down to about 70F (21.1C) to be closer to the average ale yeast's temp range. I take it you don't add top off water?

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I don't add top off water unless the grains have absorbed more than anticipated or I lost more to the boil than planned. As a rule, tend to have extra as opposed to not enough wort post boil. Since I have roughly 1.5-2 gallons head space, I just pour it all into the fermenter.

Ok, so 21C is preferred to 35C? The only reason I ever even considered pitching at 35C is that on the package of the dry Danstar Windsor British Ale Yeast, it is suggested that 35C is the ideal hydrating temperature and assists with starting the yeast. I reasoned that this may start the fermentation quicker. Am I wrong in this reasoning?

Thank you,

NavyMarine1978

unionrdr said:

You're confusing the temp of the rehydrating water with wort temp. wort temps are cooler. You rehydrate in water that's 90-105F to give the yeast's cell walls more strength. That's for about 20-30 minutes,then pitch into wort that's in the yeast's optimal fermenting range.

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I have always gone by the instructions on the back of the yeast package but never read the full instructions from Danstar. They recommend, as you did, to hydrate the yeast between 30-35C ( and ferment between the range of 17-21C (64-70F).

Thanks again,
NavyMarine1978