High gravity bottle conditioning

Sorry, I had posted a thread on the "bottling and kegging" on bottle conditioning high gravity beers. I got some good info, but I hoped that someone who really understands carbonating high alcohol brew would take a look at it.

cheezydemon said:

Sorry, I had posted a thread on the "bottling and kegging" on bottle conditioning high gravity beers. I got some good info, but I hoped that someone who really understands carbonating high alcohol brew would take a look at it.

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I understand it. Lots of people understand it. The problem is, it's a compromise and all the options are less than ideal. The best option is to artificially carbonate it. That's the only sure-fire way. But you? You want a method that is not what the truly knowledgeable and experienced beer experts would do. Let's face it, if you were a hardcore brewer, you would spend the $300 or so to be able to force carb. So basically, you are asking for the "people who really understand it" to answer your question... with the caveat that the people who really understand it can't be anybody who has figured out the fact that the best way to do it is no with bottle conditioning.

In other words, the reason you have not received a satisfactory answer is because you are asking for an answer nobody can give. The truly experienced brewers have given up and take the easy route. You want to take the hard route. Well... nobody can help you with that.. or else it wouldn't be the hard route.

You might as well be asking how to brew without mashing. Sure it can be done, but don't expect your average brewer to be an expert on it. It's just not that common of a thing. In my opinion, the reason you haven't gotten a satisfactory (to you) answer is that it is a complicated question involving more variables than you really want to deal with.

Again, I suggest you just resign yourself to a lesser degree of carbonation. It will be accurate for the style. You want more than that without force carbing, then you are in obscure territory where only the most penniless of hardcore brewers would tread...

Actually I have read of many very fine brewers who bottle condition. I have even heard of 20+ year old brew being tasted at very prestigious events. And I doubt very much that it has to do with funds. I enjoy using my mind and figuring out complex problems....isn't this supposed to be a hobby???
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but your reply could not have been more snobbish. All good brewers who are not penniless take the easy way out..............
That just doesn't ring true. But thanks for the reply.

be very very clean with every thing you do ,and use a keg or heavy glass flip tops and it will carbonate ,my ipa sounds like a shot gun firing when i open it and it steadily bubbles the whole time your drinking it ,even down to the last drop ,be very clean with your brewing

I get it. Thanks! I just don't want to screw it up. I am going to wait 5 months or so to really enjoy it, and it would really suck for it to be flat or overcarbonated. Thanks for the advice.

how high? I had a high 1.090 og 1.008 fg nut brown that i bottle conditioned after 2 weeks fermentation and 2 months secondary that came out exqistitly(?) can't wait to do that one again. Everybody thought it was great!

How high the gravity is is very important. Also, you might want to check out the yeasts alcohol tolerance (white labs has it on their website www.whitelabs.com) If the yeast have not pooped out, then they will indeed carbonate! Good luck!

PS I think this is a great project!

let's say you're shooting for ridiculous....
like dfh 120 min ipa clone, or a 16-21 % A.B.V. imperial stout.

is it possible to carbonate by adding fresh yeast flakes to each bottle along with some priming sugar?

And the zombie thread arises from the grave! When you start getting high ABV like that, the yeast simply can't tolerate it and will just go dormant, fresh yeast or no. My 15% RIS is barely bubbly after a year of conditioning and I suspect that's just leftover CO2 from fermentation.

I think the fun is to figure this all out. Racking to a keg and force carbonating is the easy way. I enjoy the complexity of all steps of brewing. Infact, I am getting ready to bottle a honey blonde, fermented with champagne yeast, I plan to use honey as the primer.

Side note, Brooklyn recently brewed a Stout that was bottle conditioned. Black Ops Stout, aged in bourbon barrels and bottle flat with champagne yeast to carbonate. Wonderful beer, now I'm a little biased, but it was the best beer I've ever had. So, I would imagine that Brooklyn could afford all the fancy equipment to force carbonate, but they chose to bottle condition. I'm with CheesyDemon, it's the hobby.

Amen. Way for Sir Humpsalot to write the longest post on the thread without actually saying anything of relevance, other than he doesn't bottle high gravity beers. There, I said it in five words. +1 to Cheesy for being a gentleman after that post.

Anyway, since Champagne yeast is more tolerant, is there a problem with bottle conditioning resulting in bottle bombs at all? Do you need to reduce the amount of priming sugar? Is there any extra problem with sediment? So many questions...so many knowledgeable people out there...can they connect?

Thanks guys.

The problem I would foresee with champagne yeast is that you run the risk of bottle bombs. It is capable of fermenting some sugars that brewers yeast won't which is why some use it to attenuate their beers further. How would you control how much fermentation will take place in those bottles after adding the champagne yeast?

GT

I bottle conditioned a 11%+ IIPA and after 2.5 weeks it's almost done. I was scared that it wouldn't carb, but it did. Go much higher than that and you may run into problems.

Generally I'd force carb, but I didn't have a reliable method of bottling from keg until after I bottle conditioned the IIPA.

Sir Humpsalot said:

I understand it. Lots of people understand it. ... But you? You want a method that is not what the truly knowledgeable and experienced beer experts would do. Let's face it, if you were a hardcore brewer, you would spend the $300 or so to be able to force carb. So basically, you are asking for the "people who really understand it" to answer your question... with the caveat that the people who really understand it can't be anybody who has figured out the fact that the best way to do it is no with bottle conditioning.

In other words, the reason you have not received a satisfactory answer is because you are asking for an answer nobody can give. The truly experienced brewers have given up and take the easy route. You want to take the hard route. Well... nobody can help you with that.. or else it wouldn't be the hard route.

You might as well be asking how to brew without mashing. Sure it can be done, but don't expect your average brewer to be an expert on it. It's just not that common of a thing. In my opinion, the reason you haven't gotten a satisfactory (to you) answer is that it is a complicated question involving more variables than you really want to deal with.

Again, I suggest you just resign yourself to a lesser degree of carbonation. It will be accurate for the style. You want more than that without force carbing, then you are in obscure territory where only the most penniless of hardcore brewers would tread...

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Moreover, as my friend just pointed out, pretty much every Trappist/Abbey beer ever has been a high-gravity bottle condition. I guess all those breweries that have been around brewing for 500 years aren't serious about it. Too bad they never spent 300 dollars on a kegging system, and too bad they're not experts. If only their beer was good.

What is your definition of a "high alcohol brew" ? ABV % at or within a half % of the maxiumum prescribed alcohol tolerance of the yeast? 8%, 24%?

...Or, siphon out a bottle's worth, and get a bottling OG. Add priming sugar, take another reading. Add some hydrated Champagne yeast to the single bottle's worth and let it go for a few weeks without a sealed cap if you're worried about bombs. Maybe after three weeks or longer if you prefer, take a FG reading. You can calculate what the target FG should be if the champagne yeast only ferments the priming sugar and nothing more. If the reading is wrong, too high or too low, adjust the bottle fermentation period or reduce the amount of sugar.

Sounds like a fun experiment to be honest, unless this has been done and I'm way off here?

ohiobrewtus said:

I bottle conditioned a 11%+ IIPA and after 2.5 weeks it's almost done. I was scared that it wouldn't carb, but it did. Go much higher than that and you may run into problems.

Generally I'd force carb, but I didn't have a reliable method of bottling from keg until after I bottle conditioned the IIPA.

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What kind of yeast? I've got a 12.4% ABV apple beer type thing going made with champagne yeast and plan to bottle within a week.

I use SAFBREW T58 DRY ALE YEAST @ Williams Brewing. Here is the link for the stats http://www.williamsbrewing.com/pdfs/y09.pdf.

Per the web site : Also recommended for bottle-conditioning of beers. Excellent performance in beers with alcohol contents of up to 8.5% v/v but can ferment up to 11.5% v/v.

My friend turned me on to this for Belgian beers. I have a 12% Quad that is nicely carbed.

Rehydrate dry yeast for bottle conditioning and you will should see good results.

If you are bottling an ale and do not want any Belgian flavors here is a seasonal yeast from Wyeast that might work out well for you.
Like mentioned before, look at the yeasts available from White Labs and Wyeast and look for alcohol tolerance and low flocculation. The low floc will keep the yeast in suspension to get the fermentation done.
Lastly I would keep the bottles stored at 70-72 or the top end for that yeast strain, for 2 weeks to encourage the yeast.

Wyeast Laboratories : VSS : Private Collection of Brewing Yeast for making Beer
Wyeast 9093-PC Imperial Blend
Beer Styles: American Barleywine, Imperial IPA, Imperial Red, Imperial Brown, Imperial Porter, Russian Imperial Stout
Profile: This unique blend of strains is designed to ferment higher gravity worts used in producing any style of Imperial beer. The results will be a rich, malty, full bodied beer with notes of citrus & fruity esters. Even with a high starting gravity your Imperials will have a relatively dry finish.

Alc. Tolerance 12-14%
Flocculation low-medium
Attenuation 75-80%
Temperature Range 68-75°F (20-24°C)

Good luck and bottle some huge Wee Heavy, Belgian Quads and massive RIS!!!