How do you transition from 5G extract to 10G A.G. ?

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Bronco1500

Bronco1500

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Hello All,

I have completed a dozen extract brews. All have turned out drinkable. Some better than others. I am happy with my progress but cant help wondering if my brews might be better going AG. I'm not afraid to spend some cash on my new favorite hobby, but I'm not sure where to throw my money at. Ill be honest I don't know squat about the AG method. Well, maybe a bit more than squat but not much more. So, its prob smarter to do research than just throw money around randomly.

Ive seen the awesome 3 keg set ups in the DIY forum. Don't fully understand all the lingo (herms, rims, etc) but it seems to be the "ultimate" in the home brew set up. At least to my untrained eyes, they sure look cool.

Ill list my equipment in case this helps.
8G SS brew pot
2 kegs - soon to be converted
Chiller- coiled copper immersion
60K BTU turkey fryer
2 mini fridges that fit one carboy each, with controllers for both
Various carboys, hop spider, stir plate, etc...

I dont mind doing my own research, actually I'm enjoying the learning process, reminds me of college. I am unsure of where to go from here. If anybody could point me in the right direction Id be grateful.

I dont mind taking my time in the transition, Im fairly happy with the extract.

Any thoughts, comments, or advice will be greatly appreciated.
 
Other than this site. Your lhbs will normally help out with finding supplies. My local shop has slowly been getting supplies for me, as I am doing the same thing as you. Austin home brew has some good equipment, they are fast. I haven't ever brought from other places but Austin is a lot closer to me. Good luck in your endeavors.
 
First off I wouldn't expect improvements in the beer necessarily by going to all grain.
You can make, and I have made fantastic beer from extract.
If you aren't happy with the way your beer is, you might want to work on your procedures or you're fermentation conditions.
All grain is just an extra step or two in the same process. After the mash is done you pretty much have the same things as the water after the grains have been steeped and the extract is added.

That being said, switching to all grain can be a very good change.
Along with all your reading you might check out some YouTube videos.
Reading about it is great but seeing them do the things they are talking about is helpful.
I know that watching videos of the process help give me the confidence to make the switch.
 
45_70sharps said:
First off I wouldn't expect improvements in the beer necessarily by going to all grain.
You can make, and I have made fantastic beer from extract.
If you aren't happy with the way your beer is, you might want to work on your procedures or you're fermentation conditions.
All grain is just an extra step or two in the same process. After the mash is done you pretty much have the same things as the water after the grains have been steeped and the extract is added.

That being said, switching to all grain can be a very good change.
Along with all your reading you might check out some YouTube videos.
Reading about it is great but seeing them do the things they are talking about is helpful.
I know that watching videos of the process help give me the confidence to make the switch.
Click to expand...

This ^

There isn't anything magical about all grain that will instantly make your beer great. I switched and I've made some pretty bad beer with all grain too. It just gives you a lot more variables but at a lower cost for the ingredients.

Extract beers have won some pretty major awards in competetion with all grain beers so there isn't anything inherently wrong with extract beer. Work on your procedure and technique. Things that may help is "late extract addition" and temperature control during ferment. Also involved is pitching the proper amount of yeast and adequate aeration of the wort before pitching.
 
Oh boy, I hope we don't start the dead horse argument of extract verse AG on which is better. :D

My defection to the AG side was a wonderful experience. I made good beer with extract and at times I cannot tell the difference but over all I find AG to be better for me.

I like the choices of different malts: munich, victory, maybe adding some smoke flavor on rare occasion, some chocolate, some roasted.... And I can control the maltiness or dry feel depending on how I set it up.

The second biggest aspect for me is I actually feel a part of the process. From grinding my grains to sparging, I feel more attached to the taking of the pre-boil OG to the final dry hopped product. *I* did that. Where as with extract it feels like a quick and dirt method. I feel like someone else did all the work for me. Plus its longer time outside, toss some food on the grill, relax, drink some beers.... Its about double time outside, not necessarily doing harder work, just out of the house and *ahem* away from the kids.

You are going to need a few upgrades by looking at your system and the return on investment is going to take awhile, but cheaper brewing costs of AG help with the wife's wrath when she finds receipts.
 
I don't see it as the dead horse thing...at least not yet.

The point is quite good that just converting to AG doesn't automatically/inherently mean your beer will miraculously be "at the next level". Certainly there seems to be more process control for AG so that in and of itself seems more prone to error, but with a finer degree of control when kept in process.
 
Getting back to OP's question (about equipment), it really becomes more about the style of brewing that you prefer and the level of sophistication that you want the setup to have. Do you like to do things by hand? Does your pickup have crank windows or power windows? Do you want to stand in front of a big panel, throwing switches like a mad scientist, or do you want to keep lighting the burner by hand? It gets to be about preference more than anything else.

I tend to fall on the simpler-is-better end of the spectrum, so my setup is pretty simple, if more complex than an extract setup. I have a two-tier sculpture with an HLT and MLT (I use a cooler, although you could get a SS MLT if you prefer it). My BK sits on the floor and after I've drained the wort I put it on the burner, which is easy enough for me since I usually only do 5 gal batches. I'm working on building out a third tier, at which point it'll be much easier to do 10 gal batches.

Others build out a flat rack with march pumps to move liquid from one vessel to another, I'm just not much of an electrician and prefer to minimize my equipment wherever possible. And of course there are the HERMS and RIMS which have several benefits but which require a much more complex (and costly) setup than the traditional three-level AG setup. Again, it's really much more about what kind of brewer you want to be than what is the "best" AG setup. Start with these links if you like:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Brewing_Sculpture#Three_Tier
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/HERMS

Cheers!
 
I think the quickest with what you have is to start with Brew In A Bag (BIAB). Going the traditional way is fine but there's that upfront cost again. With the gear you have, going this route requires a $5 sheet from Wal-Mart. You may not be able to fit the grains to do an 8% beer but you can always add extract to bump the abv. I make excellent beer this way and I think it will help you to get your feet wet and gain experience brewing all grain. Here's a link showing my process. Hopefully it's helpful.

Brewing BIAB
 
You already have an 8 gallon pot, immersion chiller and carboys. I did my first AG with the exact setup plus a 10 gallon Home Depot cooler with a stainless steel braid. You can find instructions and details on this site. It's really easy. I made extract also for a while and I know you can make good beer. I just like the "hands on" you get with the AG. You can mess up more easily but once you do it a few times you get the hang of it. Also, try 5 gallon batches first before you go to 10 gal batches. Get your process down and then expand.
 
jerrodm said:
Getting back to OP's question (about equipment), it really becomes more about the style of brewing that you prefer and the level of sophistication that you want the setup to have. Do you like to do things by hand? Does your pickup have crank windows or power windows? Do you want to stand in front of a big panel, throwing switches like a mad scientist, or do you want to keep lighting the burner by hand? It gets to be about preference more than anything else.

I tend to fall on the simpler-is-better end of the spectrum, so my setup is pretty simple, if more complex than an extract setup. I have a two-tier sculpture with an HLT and MLT (I use a cooler, although you could get a SS MLT if you prefer it). My BK sits on the floor and after I've drained the wort I put it on the burner, which is easy enough for me since I usually only do 5 gal batches. I'm working on building out a third tier, at which point it'll be much easier to do 10 gal batches.

Others build out a flat rack with march pumps to move liquid from one vessel to another, I'm just not much of an electrician and prefer to minimize my equipment wherever possible. And of course there are the HERMS and RIMS which have several benefits but which require a much more complex (and costly) setup than the traditional three-level AG setup. Again, it's really much more about what kind of brewer you want to be than what is the "best" AG setup. Start with these links if you like:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Brewing_Sculpture#Three_Tier
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/HERMS

Cheers!
Click to expand...

I agree. But if his reason is because he's not happy with the beer he's making, addressing that first is more helpful than showing him where to spend money.

Making great beer isn't necessarily something that you can throw money at to improve if the fundamentals aren't right.

I think figuring out why he's not happy with his beers is the best first step, see if any issues can be corrected, then explore what changes to go to all grain.
Spending more money and not improving the beer can be enough to turn a person off of the whole process.

As for the new gear, I also believe that you can learn a lot by reading what people on here do, how it works out for them, but seeing video of the process can help to understand what's actually involved in the various mashing processes and therefore what type of gear he wants to buy.

I know that I watched quite a few videos and that helped me to feel more comfortable about going all grain and choosing what methods I was going to use.
 
rustym said:
You already have an 8 gallon pot, immersion chiller and carboys. I did my first AG with the exact setup plus a 10 gallon Home Depot cooler with a stainless steel braid. You can find instructions and details on this site. It's really easy. I made extract also for a while and I know you can make good beer. I just like the "hands on" you get with the AG. You can mess up more easily but once you do it a few times you get the hang of it. Also, try 5 gallon batches first before you go to 10 gal batches. Get your process down and then expand.
Click to expand...

Couldnt agree more. It is a lot easier to drink 5 gallons of a batch that did not come out right than 10 gallons.
 
45_70sharps said:
I agree. But if his reason is because he's not happy with the beer he's making, addressing that first is more helpful than showing him where to spend money.

Making great beer isn't necessarily something that you can throw money at to improve if the fundamentals aren't right.

I think figuring out why he's not happy with his beers is the best first step, see if any issues can be corrected, then explore what changes to go to all grain.
Spending more money and not improving the beer can be enough to turn a person off of the whole process.

As for the new gear, I also believe that you can learn a lot by reading what people on here do, how it works out for them, but seeing video of the process can help to understand what's actually involved in the various mashing processes and therefore what type of gear he wants to buy.

I know that I watched quite a few videos and that helped me to feel more comfortable about going all grain and choosing what methods I was going to use.
Click to expand...

Excellent points all, and I happen to agree--going AG is not a solution to poor technique in brewing extract; in fact, it's more likely to result in even worse beer if the problem is that you haven't disciplined your process enough yet. Do the simpler stuff (i.e. extract brewing) better first, then expand in complexity, scale, etc. once you've gotten comfortable with it.

That said, this "AG vs. extract" argument can get stale pretty quickly, but for those brewers who are thinking about moving from extract to AG for whatever reason, the question about equipment is pertinent since most of us don't have unlimited money to constantly switch from one brew setup to another as our interests/abilities/ambitions change. Like I said in my previous post, when it comes to equipment I think the big determinant is what kind of brewer you want to be, rather than what is the "best" brewing setup.
 
I did this exact transition about 8 months ago!

I went from 5G extract kits to making 11 gallon AG every batch!

1. 20 gallon stainless steel brew pot ($150 off Amazon)

2. 185K BTU Bayou Burner ($50 on Amazon)

3. Two 20 lb propane cylinders ($30 off craigslist)

4. Wal-Mart 52Qt cooler for mash tun ($25 on sale)

5. Homemade CPVC laudering manifold with ball valve and custom outlet ($20)

6. 50' Copper wort chiller ($80)

Total spent: $355

That is pretty much all I needed to progress from extract to A/G and this setup is more than adequate, I have no complaints or regrets.

Temp control, sanitation and yeast handling are the main things that need to be mastered to consistently produce good beer....just takes time, experience and lots of reading on places like HBT!
 
jerrodm said:
Like I said in my previous post, when it comes to equipment I think the big determinant is what kind of brewer you want to be, rather than what is the "best" brewing setup.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more.
You can make great beer many ways. It comes down to what method you want to take on.
Think it out before investing because like you said, it costs too much money to keep changing direction.
 
You can do a simple brew in a bag with what you have now. That is how I started AG and shortly moved to a 3 vessel system.

You have far more than most people start with.

Stick to the recipes you see here that have lots of positive reviews before trying to make up your own.
 
whoaru99 said:
I don't see it as the dead horse thing...at least not yet.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I did not mean that the way it came out. There used to be rather large discussions that went on for ages about the pros and cons. It was more of a gleeful poke at that subject, not said in spite at all. It was more of a who's grass is greener and it never really was resolved only agreed open that we all have opinions.
 
For all the replies, thank you.

First, I must apologize. I started this thread then got busy with "life" and have not been able to respond until now. To clarify I am happy with extract. In fact I just unveiled my latest/greatest batch over thanksgiving. It was so yummy that if I never go AG I will be a fat happy man.

My comment about wanting to improve my batches was not because they are currently sub-par. Its more a reflection on my personality. I'm a blue collar DIY kinda guy. Every time I finish a project I will ponder how I could have done it cheaper, quicker, stronger, etc.

I keep a beer journal. While I write in it I think about what could have gone smoother, easier, or what could boost quality. This analytical side has got me thinking..... and posting. I had always assumed that extract would eventually evolve into AG. This just seemed to be a natural progression. So, I was day dreaming about what is coming in the future and wasn't too sure about which direction to focus my research. A friend borrowed my books so I was a bit lost on what the possibilities were....3 tier, herms, biab, other?? So, I asked a fairly broad, clear as mud question. "how do you transition..."

I guess one of my questions would be do I need to get a 3rd keg for AG, or will my 2 kegs + my 8G pot work (most of the time) ?

I'm not really sure what I'm getting into, so any advice, thoughts, ideas, whatever will be appreciated.

FYI these FNG questions will hopefully thin out when I get my books back.

Thanks, Fellas
 
Bronco1500 said:
For all the replies, thank you.

First, I must apologize. I started this thread then got busy with "life" and have not been able to respond until now. To clarify I am happy with extract. In fact I just unveiled my latest/greatest batch over thanksgiving. It was so yummy that if I never go AG I will be a fat happy man.

My comment about wanting to improve my batches was not because they are currently sub-par. Its more a reflection on my personality. I'm a blue collar DIY kinda guy. Every time I finish a project I will ponder how I could have done it cheaper, quicker, stronger, etc.

I keep a beer journal. While I write in it I think about what could have gone smoother, easier, or what could boost quality. This analytical side has got me thinking..... and posting. I had always assumed that extract would eventually evolve into AG. This just seemed to be a natural progression. So, I was day dreaming about what is coming in the future and wasn't too sure about which direction to focus my research. A friend borrowed my books so I was a bit lost on what the possibilities were....3 tier, herms, biab, other?? So, I asked a fairly broad, clear as mud question. "how do you transition..."

I guess one of my questions would be do I need to get a 3rd keg for AG, or will my 2 kegs + my 8G pot work (most of the time) ?

I'm not really sure what I'm getting into, so any advice, thoughts, ideas, whatever will be appreciated.

FYI these FNG questions will hopefully thin out when I get my books back.

Thanks, Fellas
Click to expand...

You remind me of myself. I went BIAB since I already had the right equipment and wanted more control. This is just my opinion but the tried and true, three tier setup mimics commercial breweries and that's why home brewers tend to go that direction. If you have lots of cash, that seems like a good way to go. However, we're talking 5 gallons, not 20 barrels. By going BIAB, you get the control of all grain, you can use your existing equipment, save a fortune on ingredients (extract is pricey), build recipes even a commercial brewer would understand and you'll get a better understanding of the all grain process.

Eventually when the kids are older and I have a little money, I will make an ultimate brew shed with a 3 tier setup, but for now, to be able to make 10 gallons of fantastic beer by going the BIAB route is wonderful! I just made 10 gallons of an original pale ale tonight that (with bulk grains and hops), cost me around $30 to make. 4 1/2 cases for $30... come on!

If I can help in any way, let me know.
 
Bronco1500 said:
The advice and generosity of the members here still dumbfounds me.

Thank you sir. I will take you up on that.
Click to expand...

Please do. I spent more money on equipment than I needed to. If I can help you or anyone else save a buck or two, I'm happy to do it. I was telling my wife tonight that it's nice to be at a point where I'm re-couping my investment cost on this hobby. These days I buy hops, grain and the occasional tubing replacement. I finally feel like a beer artisan ;)
 

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