Diagnoising astrigency issue

I got some competition scores back and one red flag that came up was mild astringency. I didn't catch it when I drank the beer. I've been looking up the causes and can't figure it out. For one, how much does one sparge with to over-do it? I do all grain and batch sparge. I mashed at 152-153 with 1.25 qts water/pound. The initial strike water temp was 173F. I sparged with around 5.50 gallons of water. Is that too much? I did a 15 min hop steep as well, which I didn't account for the added bitterness. This could have been why the beer was slightly more bitter than I was intending. Could that cause any astringency.

Recipe:

11 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 91.7 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 4.2 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.2 %
0.30 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 4 10.7 IBUs
1.30 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 14.1 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 6 -
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 6.5 IBUs
0.15 oz Citra [13.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 1.3 IBUs
0.15 oz Citra [13.40 %] - Boil 4.0 min Hop 9 1.1 IBUs
0.15 oz Citra [13.40 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 10 0.8 IBUs
0.15 oz Citra [13.40 %] - Boil 2.0 min Hop 11 0.6 IBUs
0.15 oz Citra [13.40 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 12 0.3 IBUs
1.25 oz Citra [13.40 %] - Aroma Steep 15.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [124.21 ml] Yeast 14 -
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [13.40 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs

He said 173F strike water which is a perfectly normal range for strike water temperatures. I just did a CCB and used a strike water temp of 174F (1:1 g:w ratio). But your sparge water temperature could potentially be an issue if it's super high; what was your sparge water temp? Also, what brand of 2row was this? Rahr?

You need to know the PH of your mash first. Tannin extraction can be the cause of astringency and is caused by high PH AND too hot water at sparge, not just one or the other.

It can also be caused by over sparging meaning you sparged below a gravity of around 1.005 or so. It can also be caused by way too fine a crush in conjunction with these other issues.

Astringency can be caused by too many dark, specialty grains as well but that does not appear to be an issue with this recipe.

IME, take the comments lightly and look at your process to improve. Astringency is one of those comments that is difficult to discern because it is sometime difficult to detect and is also sometimes mistaken for something else. Was the judge a BJCP certified or apprentice or lower? I have had score sheets from less qualified judges state astringency but the same beer judged by a more qualified judge stated nothing about it

unionrdr said:

By the by,I thought strike water was another term for sparge water. What's the difference? I'm on my 3rd partial mash,& thought both terms described the same action?...

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Strike water is the water that is added to the initial mash to mash the grain. Sparge water is the water that is added after the mash to rinse the sugars from the grain. Strike water is usually higher in temp so it settles at what your desired mash temp should be like using 163F water to settle at 152F. sparge water should be at least 168F and some people go as high as 190 which is fine as long as your PH is within range of mid 5's. IF the PH is higher and you sparge with too hot water then tannin extraction becomes and issue.

Union,
strike water is the water you add to the mash at the beginning to get your desired mash temp.

Surley,
As for your astringency I am agreed with dubo, although I have heard that you should stay above somewhere between 1.008 and 1.012 when sparging. I personally don't go below 8.

Astringency only comes from grains and not hops so no form of hop bitterness should be confused as astringency.

It's also possible that when you sparge you are letting a lot of the grain particles get into the boil. Do you recirculate?

stpug said:

He said 173F strike water which is a perfectly normal range for strike water temperatures. I just did a CCB and used a strike water temp of 174F (1:1 g:w ratio). But your sparge water temperature could potentially be an issue if it's super high; what was your sparge water temp? Also, what brand of 2row was this? Rahr?

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Rahr 2-row, and sparge water was 168F.

duboman said:

You need to know the PH of your mash first. Tannin extraction can be the cause of astringency and is caused by high PH AND too hot water at sparge, not just one or the other.

It can also be caused by over sparging meaning you sparged below a gravity of around 1.005 or so. It can also be caused by way too fine a crush in conjunction with these other issues.

Astringency can be caused by too many dark, specialty grains as well but that does not appear to be an issue with this recipe.

IME, take the comments lightly and look at your process to improve. Astringency is one of those comments that is difficult to discern because it is sometime difficult to detect and is also sometimes mistaken for something else. Was the judge a BJCP certified or apprentice or lower? I have had score sheets from less qualified judges state astringency but the same beer judged by a more qualified judge stated nothing about it

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Mashp PH is unknown. I was going to purchase some mash PH strips, but from what I've heard they suck/don't work. Ph meter is also too expensive. I also use a single crush, and it's not very good at that. I use the mill at Northern Brewer. I think the judge was a BJCP apprentice.

Hopper5000 said:

Union,
strike water is the water you add to the mash at the beginning to get your desired mash temp.

Surley,
As for your astringency I am agreed with dubo, although I have heard that you should stay above somewhere between 1.008 and 1.012 when sparging. I personally don't go below 8.

Astringency only comes from grains and not hops so no form of hop bitterness should be confused as astringency.

It's also possible that when you sparge you are letting a lot of the grain particles get into the boil. Do you recirculate?

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Yes, I recirculate the wort so no grain in the boil kettle. Haven't measured the gravity when sparging. I could give it a look next time.

Astringency only comes from grains and not hops so no form of hop bitterness should be confused as astringency.

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This is wrong. Hop plant matter also contains astringent tannins and polyphenols. In fact, it can be quite harshly bitter at times.

OP- do you keg or bottle your beer? I have found in my kegs of IPA and IIPA, that as excess tannins and polyphenols start settling to the bottom, there is a time period were the pours can be quite astringent because it is pulling off the bottom where these compounds are most concentrated. Yeast and proteins also bind with these compounds. I tend to avoid it now by using polyclar, or by installing a 1/2 length dip tube to draw the clarified beer first.

If you are bottling, then you could hit it with polyclar in a secondary vessel prior to packaging. I didn't see anything wrong with your mashing process as you described it barring pH being an issue.

Based on countless posts in these forums, you are VERY unlikely to oversparge (i.e. run under 1.010 gravity) when batch sparging. This is much more of a consideration when fly sparging. I would exclude this as a culprit.

Your temperatures and volumes are perfectly within normal range, which should exclude these as culprits.

Your recipe doesn't even touch on dark grains, which should exclude this as a culprit.

Rahr 2row has a lower pH effect on water chemistry than most other 2row malts. What exactly does this mean and how could it pertain to you? Depending on your water chemistry and grainbill (specifically 11 lbs rahr 2row) you could potentially fall into a pH level that's too low which would put you at risk of tannin extraction, however I've always read that this needs to be coupled with too high temperatures (which you should NOT have had). This water chemistry aspect is relatively new to me and as such can't really say one way or another how this would have an effect, however it's worth taking a deeper look into. There are many very knowledgeable folks on this forum with a thorough knowledge of water chemistry that could help evaluate whether this had any affect of your brew.

I guess lastly would be "consider the source" - some people sense different things that others. It would be good to decide yourself if you think there's an astringency aspect to your brew. As long as you are objective and have a decent taste sensation then you should be able to pick up on something (i.e. drying of the tongue, unfamiliar 'bite')

A refrac is a useful tool when measuring gravity. Ph usually isn't an issue unless you are doing an 100% base malt beer or a beer that uses a lot of dark grains. Bru N Water is a good spreadsheet to help you guess what your pH is, and I would agree with you that the strips aren't very helpful.

It is quite possible that it was an incorrect tasting note. Was it only one one sheet? I have had ones where 3 judges reviewed my beer and only one said it was astringent... however it did end up winning best of show

yes sorry machine is right... i mean to say from the amount of hops that was used which was a very minimal amount.

I would steer clear of looking for the astringency in the mash and grains. I don't think that is where your astringency is coming from. I would look at the hops.

MachineShopBrewing said:

This is wrong. Hop plant matter also contains astringent tannins and polyphenols. In fact, it can be quite harshly bitter at times.

OP- do you keg or bottle your beer? I have found in my kegs of IPA and IIPA, that as excess tannins and polyphenols start settling to the bottom, there is a time period were the pours can be quite astringent because it is pulling off the bottom where these compounds are most concentrated. Yeast and proteins also bind with these compounds. I tend to avoid it now by using polyclar, or by installing a 1/2 length dip tube to draw the clarified beer first.

If you are bottling, then you could hit it with polyclar in a secondary vessel prior to packaging. I didn't see anything wrong with your mashing process as you described it barring pH being an issue.

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You could be onto something. I bottled this beer from a keg. Cabonation was spot on. But, when I was bottling it, I had stirred up a bit of stuff on the bottom from moving the keg. It was a tad bit cloudier than normal. I had a hell of a time getting the disconnects off.

Ok. Hit your beer with some polyclar and see if that clears it up. Or, if you have a bottle left from that bottling session, give it a gentle roll and pour it. See how that compares to what is in your keg.

stpug said:

Based on countless posts in these forums, you are VERY unlikely to oversparge (i.e. run under 1.010 gravity) when batch sparging. This is much more of a consideration when fly sparging. I would exclude this as a culprit.

Your temperatures and volumes are perfectly within normal range, which should exclude these as culprits.

Your recipe doesn't even touch on dark grains, which should exclude this as a culprit.

Rahr 2row has a lower pH effect on water chemistry than most other 2row malts. What exactly does this mean and how could it pertain to you? Depending on your water chemistry and grainbill (specifically 11 lbs rahr 2row) you could potentially fall into a pH level that's too low which would put you at risk of tannin extraction, however I've always read that this needs to be coupled with too high temperatures (which you should NOT have had). This water chemistry aspect is relatively new to me and as such can't really say one way or another how this would have an effect, however it's worth taking a deeper look into. There are many very knowledgeable folks on this forum with a thorough knowledge of water chemistry that could help evaluate whether this had any affect of your brew.

I guess lastly would be "consider the source" - some people sense different things that others. It would be good to decide yourself if you think there's an astringency aspect to your brew. As long as you are objective and have a decent taste sensation then you should be able to pick up on something (i.e. drying of the tongue, unfamiliar 'bite')

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Unfortunately, the beer was finished before I got the scores... So, I was not able to try it and read the notes.

Hopper5000 said:

A refrac is a useful tool when measuring gravity. Ph usually isn't an issue unless you are doing an 100% base malt beer or a beer that uses a lot of dark grains. Bru N Water is a good spreadsheet to help you guess what your pH is, and I would agree with you that the strips aren't very helpful.

It is quite possible that it was an incorrect tasting note. Was it only one one sheet? I have had ones where 3 judges reviewed my beer and only one said it was astringent... however it did end up winning best of show

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I do have a refractometer. I should check the gravity when sparging next time. I had 4 people judge the beer, and the only one with any BJCP certification experience mentioned astringency. I did place with this beer though. There were contradicting statements between judges. One said too bitter and another said not bitter enough. Nice one guys.

MachineShopBrewing said:

I would steer clear of looking for the astringency in the mash and grains. I don't think that is where your astringency is coming from. I would look at the hops.

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Really? I did this same recipe except it was extract and took second runner up. No astringency issues with the first one. Hop schedule was the exact same. One large new variable is the mash.

yeah I have had that conflicting feedback too... doesn't really help me out at all, lol

Just wondering if anyone considered the water? Tap or carbon filtered?

mbobhat said:

Just wondering if anyone considered the water? Tap or carbon filtered?

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At that time, I used St. Paul MN tap water (and still use it). From what I've heard, it is pretty good. I treated it with campden tablets the night before brewing. Since then I have purchased a carbon water filter and use that to filter the water.

SurlyBrew said:

At that time, I used St. Paul MN tap water (and still use it). From what I've heard, it is pretty good. I treated it with campden tablets the night before brewing. Since then I have purchased a carbon water filter and use that to filter the water.

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Probably not chlorine then. That kind of astringency is just gross, ever since I've noticed it in my beer before filtering, I can taste it very easily in other's that didn't treat.

SurlyBrew said:

Really? I did this same recipe except it was extract and took second runner up. No astringency issues with the first one. Hop schedule was the exact same. One large new variable is the mash.

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Unless your pH was WAY off, I would look at the hops rather than the grains. Using St. Paul tap water with the grain bill should be fine. Unless you shredded the husks to oblivion.

There are a lot of other variables besides the recipe being extract or grain. Yeast pitch, time, temp, serving method, protein content, etc...

Based on my experience, I am guessing that what you(I.E. the judges) are tasting is a hop tannin/polyphenol. Now that the beer is gone, you have no way to go back and try anything to fix it. Next time you taste astringency in a hoppy beer, try putting in a 1/2 length dip tube or hitting it with polyclar.

MachineShopBrewing said:

Unless your pH was WAY off, I would look at the hops rather than the grains. Using St. Paul tap water with the grain bill should be fine. Unless you shredded the husks to oblivion.

There are a lot of other variables besides the recipe being extract or grain. Yeast pitch, time, temp, serving method, protein content, etc...

Based on my experience, I am guessing that what you(I.E. the judges) are tasting is a hop tannin/polyphenol. Now that the beer is gone, you have no way to go back and try anything to fix it. Next time you taste astringency in a hoppy beer, try putting in a 1/2 length dip tube or hitting it with polyclar.

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How do results with polyclar compare to say gelatin? I forgot to mention I cold crashed and used gelatin before cold crashing. Can't imagine that would have any affect.

stpug said:

. . . Depending on your water chemistry and grainbill (specifically 11 lbs rahr 2row) you could potentially fall into a pH level that's too low which would put you at risk of tannin extraction, however I've always read that this needs to be coupled with too high temperatures (which you should NOT have had). . .

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Its HIGH pH (> 6 ) coupled with high sparge water temps that lead to tannin extraction. That's why some brewers acidify their sparge water < 5.6 prior to sparging.

I would think it came from you pulling some of the material off of the bottom then if you used gelatin and cold crashed, although some of it probably would have fallen out while it was sitting in the bottle unless it got shaken up on judging day.

Hopper5000 said:

I would think it came from you pulling some of the material off of the bottom then if you used gelatin and cold crashed, although some of it probably would have fallen out while it was sitting in the bottle unless it got shaken up on judging day.

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I racked into a keg and didn't get much trub at all in the keg. Don't think this is it.

SurlyBrew said:

I racked into a keg and didn't get much trub at all in the keg. Don't think this is it.

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It's not the trub that would cause it, I think hopper is talking about excess polyphenols that would have dropped out of solution being kicked back up.

Gelatin pulls out yeast, whereas polyclar will grab tannins and polyphenols. Polyclar acts like a protein and attaches to polyphenols.