Adding salts to bk

So i was thinking about water additions today.

currently i add the salts to the MLT for the the mash water, and then i add teh salts to the BK for the Sparge water (per Brewstrong podcast)

let me illustrate with an example.

= I mash in with 3 gallons of water, i add 3 grams to the MLT.
= Then i mash out
=Add six gallons of sparge water (this is just an example)
= I empty the sparge water in the boil kettle

At this point I have 6 gallons total in the BK, and 3 gallons remaining in the MLT, trapped in the grain.

3 of the gallons in the boil kettle were treated in the mash.

what volume should i use to add salts for the sparge water?

1) treat the additional three gallons of sparge water that made it too teh kettle
2) treat the boil kettle as if all 6 gallons of sparge water made it into the kettle

I am about to brew, so any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Anybody... please?

I just divide up the additions. 1/2 in the mash, 1/2 in the BK. The amount of sparge water has nothing to do with it. I hope that helps!

Right, but what about the water that is stuck in the grains... do i count that when i am making my additions in the boil kettle?

sjlammer said:

Right, but what about the water that is stuck in the grains... do i count that when i am making my additions in the boil kettle?

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No, don't worry about that. I don't know how it would be possible to calculate it exactly anyway.

When you use a spreadsheet, the calculations assume some wet grains left over. You want the salts in the mash to ensure proper conversion, and you want the salts in the BK for yeast nutrition and flavor later on.

You'll be fine just dividing the additions.

Of course, I'm no chemist, so I'd suggest further reading if you want to know more of the hows and whys. This is just what I've gleaned from my foray into beginning water chemistry.

I do two calculations:

For mash pH adjustment, I figure based only on what's in the mash, and I don't adjust pH of sparge water. For Cl/SO4 balance, I figure additions based upon the entire volume, and add salts to the BK.

Note: Denver water is fairly soft, and high in sulfates, so it's generally just a small chalk addition in the mash and some canning salt in the BK. YMwillV, based on your starting point.

Are you suggesting that the sparge water will sparge out salts remaining in the grain after the MT addition? I wouldn't try to calculate that.

Let's say you treat 5gl for the mash but after water loss to grains you would be able to runoff 2.5 gl from that (batch or fly doesn't matter). If you are shooting for a 7gl boil then you'd add salts for 4.5 gl to the BK.

Make sense?

Nope. I'm suggesting that to get the mash pH in the right range, I adjust based only on the water that's in the mash during conversion. For taste-related adjustments, I adjust based upon the final volume of beer. Again, it's easy for me, since I usually only need a bit of chalk and canning salt. For more complicated salt schedules, this would be a lot harder.

jds said:

Nope. I'm suggesting that to get the mash pH in the right range, I adjust based only on the water that's in the mash during conversion. For taste-related adjustments, I adjust based upon the final volume of beer. Again, it's easy for me, since I usually only need a bit of chalk and canning salt. For more complicated salt schedules, this would be a lot harder.

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That question was to the OP....

Ok. I make two salt additions:

1) my first addition is based on the mash water volume

2) the second is the total runoff volume - mash water. Ie. i am excluding the water trapt in the MLT/grains

"Let's say you treat 5gl for the mash but after water loss to grains you would be able to runoff 2.5 gl from that (batch or fly doesn't matter). If you are shooting for a 7gl boil then you'd add salts for 4.5 gl to the BK."

I think we are saying the same thing here.

I guess i am making the assumption that the water trapted in the grains is untreated sparge water.

The other way you could do it is:
1) treat the volume of mash water
2) add salts to the BK based on teh total sparge volume.

The problem with this is that 3-4 gallons of water is left in the MLT,,, yet i am adding salts to the BK for these trapt gallons... doesn't seem right

Look at it this way:

After you've added salts to your mash and ran off the wort you want to add salts for the difference between the first runnings and the boil volume.

Yes, after the first runnings there is water and salts absorbed into the grain. However, I do not know any calculation to figure out if or how much of those salts can be effectively rinsed from the grains during the sparge. Therefore, treat the second runnings like no salts are being rinsed and add salts for the difference between the first runnings and final boil volume.

example:

for 14 pounds of grain
-mash with 4.5gl water(about 1.25qts/pound). Treat 4.5gl water with salts to adjust pH
-assume .2gl per pound of grain absorbed during mash (14pounds of grain x 0.2 = 2.8 gl absorbed)
-first runnings should equal 1.7 gl (4.5 - 2.8)
-shooting for 7gl boil volume means that you should add salts for 5.3 gl to the BK (7gl - 1.7 gl)

Yes that means that I am adding salts for 9.8 gls even though my boil volume is 7gl.

This is the way of always done it. No problems so far. I've never found or heard of a way to calculate how effectively the salts are rinsed from the grains during a sparge, so I assume none are.

jmo88 said:

-shooting for 7gl boil volume means that you should add salts for 5.3 gl to the BK (7gl - 1.7 gl)

Yes that means that I am adding salts for 9.8 gls even though my boil volume is 7gl.

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Sorry, maybe i've had too many homebrews today, but these two statements seem contradictory.

if you added salts for the entire volume of water used, the top line would read

"you should add salts for 8.1 gl to the BK (9.8gl - 1.7 gl)"

Is that a typo?

No typo you're just not seeing the big picture. I mean over the whole course, mash and sparge, I've added salts for 9.8 gl. Rember the the first runnings left 2.8 in the mash? Because of this retention I end up adding more salts than the actual boil.

Ahh.. i got you. 9.8 total - 2.8 already treated = 7 gallons. 7 gallons minus 1.7 in the BK = 5.3.


I suppose it wouldn't really matter except my total water usage was 18.5 gallons and my total runoff volume was 13.5

That means 5 gallons are lost in my grains (10 gal batch) and equipment. that is a lot of extra salt to be adding to the BK.

Yeah, it seems like a lot, but that's what it is. I leave out table salt and baking soda from the bk addition because the main purpose of these is to adjust pH. Adding them to the bk means raising sodium. I've no need for that. Bk additions should consider chloride to sulfate ratio and yeast health (calcium). So it may not be as much as you think when you leave these out of the bk addition.

I hope that helps.

Ok, so the assumption is that any water absorbed by the grains during the mash stays in the grains, even after sparging...

another way to say this is, the sparge water does not rinse any salts that have been absorbed by the grains...

I'm beginning to agree

anybody else care to weigh in on this?

jmo88 said:

That question was to the OP....

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[homer] D'oh! [/HOMER] .