THE MAIN EVENT: All Grain vs Extract

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Extract or All Grain

  • Extract

  • All Grain

  • Polls are dumb


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SpecialEd

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Ok so I am an extract brewer (7 batches so far) and some have been good, some not so good, but overall an excellent hobby.
So the big question,which makes better beer All grain or extract. I know you have more control in all grain,but other than that are there any major advantages to spengind an entire day doing an all grain batch. Is it less expensive?
 
Well what is a partial mash, I steep specialty grains in all my brews.
 
RALPH RALPH RALPH RALPH!!!!!


Since they were not radio butttons, I checked em all. Just did my 1st AG Friday night. I have had great luck so far in my brew career w/extract and mini mash. I will post back in ~6 weeks when my AG batch is done.

Not for nothing, but I am drinking a Magic hat clone that came out awesome!
 
SpecialEd said:
Well what is a partial mash, I steep specialty grains in all my brews.

It took me forever to figure this out too, but partial mash is not steeping, but actually employing the same techniques for all grain brewing, but on a smaller scale.

You actually mash smaller amounts of grain in order to get starch conversion. PM brewers also use extracts in combination with the mashing.
 
It's all brewing and personal preferance. I AG because I like to spend all day brewing. But the award winnig beers at Comps. tend to be Extract I don't compete I make beer for family and friends. Cheers
 
I would say that per unit of work, extract easily makes the better beer. All grain is a ton of fun, but a lot more to do and plenty of places to do something wrong (or accitentally do something just right!). I like making a mess of the kitchen, though, so I always go AG. :mug:
 
Well I only have a 5 gal brew pot, can you do partial mash in that? Does partial mash make a big difference?
 
Extract is more expensive. I figure about 20 bucks for an all-grain batch and about 35 for extract. Ive done a lot of partial mashes where id mash 50 percent of the fermentables (5-7 lbs grain+3 lbs dme) and those beers were indistinguishable from all grain.

Its not a question of better or worse just preference, time investment etc. The end result is the same=BEER. :ban:
 
It's not the extract or grain that makes beer good, it's the brewer. Both methods can make very bad and very good beer
 
SpecialEd said:
Ok so I am an extract brewer (7 batches so far) and some have been good, some not so good, but overall an excellent hobby.
So the big question,which makes better beer All grain or extract. I know you have more control in all grain,but other than that are there any major advantages to spengind an entire day doing an all grain batch. Is it less expensive?

Define "better". ;)
 
Andre Agassi said:
Extract is more expensive. I figure about 20 bucks for an all-grain batch and about 35 for extract. Ive done a lot of partial mashes where id mash 50 percent of the fermentables (5-7 lbs grain+3 lbs dme) and those beers were indistinguishable from all grain.

Its not a question of better or worse just preference, time investment etc. The end result is the same=BEER. :ban:
Nothing I can add to this.
:mug:
 
Andre Agassi said:
Extract is more expensive. I figure about 20 bucks for an all-grain batch and about 35 for extract. Ive done a lot of partial mashes where id mash 50 percent of the fermentables (5-7 lbs grain+3 lbs dme) and those beers were indistinguishable from all grain.

Its not a question of better or worse just preference, time investment etc. The end result is the same=BEER. :ban:


Amen to that. Cept I will add that with AG can be even less than $20 a batch with bulk grains, yeast harvesting, etc. Even so it really doesn't matter. Brew on, man, however you want.:mug:
 
To me, it doesn't matter "which makes better beer", cuz I know my all-grain batch sucked. Haha. I have more DME to use up, so I'll continue with that, and keep on experimenting w/ all grain. But for the time being, extract + grains is the way for me to drink tasty beer.

monk
 
I voted for all three...and I would've picked Ralph. I guess I'm an extract brewer since I'm about to do my first AG as soon as I get the pieces put together. I've sat in on a few AG brews, and I think I'll really enjoy it. The bottom line, though, is that I enjoy craft beer and the science/art behind it. It doesn't really matter much which avenue you take if the end result is good beer.
 
OK, here's a question. The same brewer with 2 recepies. One is AG, one is extract. This brewer has great sanitation practices and good methods. This brewer makes the extract version and the AG version of the SAME beer. Which one will taste better assuming the OG/FG/SRM/IBU's and ABV are all the same.
 
SpecialEd said:
cool, anyone know a good place to read up on partial mash?

Look for this month's issue of BYO. They have an article on how to do a partial mash w/ a 2 gallon cooler. In addition they've got articles on how to convert a 10gal cooler for infusion mashing and a huge list of extracts. All in all a VERY good issue techniques wise. (IMHO) I've tried partial mash exactly twice: the first (brown stout) is aging until December and the second is on D -5days to bottle conditioning completion. I'm looking forward to the results. :D
 
I go with AG because I do AG, although my old extract batches were great.

AG is still my favorite--it's a lot of fun to use lots of cool (and sometimes expensive) brew toys.
 
So does a partial mash help flavor??? I now steep specialty grains every batch and I think it makes ahuge difference. I also heard all grain gives you more control....ie. you can actually make the beer you are aiming for?


PS oh gadgets are great, just got a kegging system, mmmmmmm.....beeer
 
SpecialEd said:
So does a partial mash help flavor??? I now steep specialty grains every batch and I think it makes ahuge difference. I also heard all grain gives you more control....ie. you can actually make the beer you are aiming for?


PS oh gadgets are great, just got a kegging system, mmmmmmm.....beeer

It gives you more control over the body of the beer, and makes *individual* batches a few bucks cheaper. Equipment cost is another story... But heck, it's a hobby! That's money not spent on greens fees.

Oh, and did I mention it's more FUN! :ban:
 
SpecialEd said:
So does a partial mash help flavor??? I now steep specialty grains every batch and I think it makes ahuge difference. I also heard all grain gives you more control....ie. you can actually make the beer you are aiming for?


PS oh gadgets are great, just got a kegging system, mmmmmmm.....beeer

Since you can use more specialty grains, not just for steeping, but for their actual sugars...in my opinion, it definitely does help the flavor. Since I moved from extract-steeping to PM, my brews have gotten much better.

Here's a quick and dirty Partial Mash guide:

  1. Put 2-3 quarts of water in your pot, bring to 150 degrees F.
  2. Add grains...can be as much as 3 lbs, but make sure to add more water if it looks dry.
  3. The temp should fall to 130F. Add heat if necessary, and maintian 129-135F for 30 minutes.
  4. Add 3 quarts boiling water to bring the heat up to 155F. Add heat or cold water as necessary to get to this temp. Hold between 149-155F for 45 mins.
  5. Increase heat to bring temp to 158, hold for 10-20 mins to finish starch conversion.
  6. Perform an iodine test to ensure starch conversions: get iodine tincture from the drug store, etc., take a tablespoon of the wort and pour into a shallow white bowl. Add a few drops of iodine. If the iodine drops change color to black or purple, it's not done...keep it at 158F for longer. If the drops do not change color, conversion is done. Proceed!
  7. Raise temp to 167F, then use a large-holed strainer to sparge, using 170F water, into another large container.
  8. In the end, wash out your kettle, and return the sparged wort to the kettle. Proceed as you would with an extract batch.

Hope that helps. I'm sure there are more detailed explanations on the web. Or follow one of Papazian's Complete Joy recipes.

Yes, gadgets are lotsa fun. I just got an 8-gallon brew kettle and an aeration kit. My yeasties are very appreciative if the aeration. A yeastie with a high metabolic rate is a happy yeastie.
 
Been reading this thread and I just gotta chime in on the topic.

I have to say I totally disagree with the people who say that Extract ("if the ingredients are fresh") can be just as good as All-Grain.

Imagine going to a Two Michelin Star Restaurant and going back to the kitchen and finding that all of the meat is in plastic, the vegetables are from cans and the bread is made from a quick mix box. So you ask the head chef, "Whats going on here? Where is the fresh food?", and he says "Not to worry!, everything we cook with here is fresh. Yes, it may come from a can or box but we have been guaranteed by our supplier that nothing is more than 1 month old."

This picture may seem rediculous but its no different than people saying malt extract can make as good a beer as all-grain.

Malt Extract beer is like eating from a can while All-Grain is eating food that was made from scratch.

Extract beer can never, ever be as fresh as an All-Grain beer. Fresh ingredients are key to anything we consume. Nobody argues that pellet hops are just as good as whole fresh hops. Yet people have this idea that a malt syrup from a can or bag can be just as good as making your own fresh extract and brewing with it right then and there.

Randy Mosher states in his book Radical Brewing:

"Malt extract has been largely stripped of aroma, which is why a pound of crystal malt or a mini-mash makes such a dramatic improvement."

Nuff said.
 
Carne de Perro said:
Look for this month's issue of BYO. They have an article on how to do a partial mash w/ a 2 gallon cooler. In addition they've got articles on how to convert a 10gal cooler for infusion mashing and a huge list of extracts. All in all a VERY good issue techniques wise. (IMHO) I've tried partial mash exactly twice: the first (brown stout) is aging until December and the second is on D -5days to bottle conditioning completion. I'm looking forward to the results. :D


If you don't want to buy the magazine, get it from the website. It's a good article and this is what I used in my first partial mash a couple of weeks ago.
 
Beeratier said:
Been reading this thread and I just gotta chime in on the topic.

I have to say I totally disagree with the people who say that Extract ("if the ingredients are fresh") can be just as good as All-Grain.

Imagine going to a Two Michelin Star Restaurant and going back to the kitchen and finding that all of the meat is in plastic, the vegetables are from cans and the bread is made from a quick mix box. So you ask the head chef, "Whats going on here? Where is the fresh food?", and he says "Not to worry!, everything we cook with here is fresh. Yes, it may come from a can or box but we have been guaranteed by our supplier that nothing is more than 1 month old."

This picture may seem rediculous but its no different than people saying malt extract can make as good a beer as all-grain.

Malt Extract beer is like eating from a can while All-Grain is eating food that was made from scratch.

Extract beer can never, ever be as fresh as an All-Grain beer. Fresh ingredients are key to anything we consume. Nobody argues that pellet hops are just as good as whole fresh hops. Yet people have this idea that a malt syrup from a can or bag can be just as good as making your own fresh extract and brewing with it right then and there.

Randy Mosher states in his book Radical Brewing:

"Malt extract has been largely stripped of aroma, which is why a pound of crystal malt or a mini-mash makes such a dramatic improvement."

Nuff said.


Of course extract is stripped of much of its aroma. But most, if not all, the "extract" recipes I've seen call for steeping whole grains. I don't think anyone is really advocating just dumping extract syrup into some water, adding hops and yeast, and calling it a day...I think you're arguing with a phantom, Beeratier.
 
Evan! said:
Of course extract is stripped of much of its aroma. But most, if not all, the "extract" recipes I've seen call for steeping whole grains. I don't think anyone is really advocating just dumping extract syrup into some water, adding hops and yeast, and calling it a day...I think you're arguing with a phantom, Beeratier.


You could be right (about my arguing with a phantom).

Steeping whole grains can do a lot for an extract beer and I'm sure thats what most people are doing when brewing with extract. And thankgoodness for extract because without it a lot of people who want to brew wouldn't be able to.

I just want to see more people brew all-grain, thats all. I think its one of the best things you can do to stick it to "The Man", to buck the system and to get in touch with your roots. Its taking beer making to that next level, where you are truly creating something. Its where you control all aspects of what is being spawned from hops and grain. I just see using ready-made extract as one of those things that was started because of our busy lives that just get busier. To brew all-grain is to go back in time when we were not all in such a mad rush or a rat race, whatever you want to call it. When the rhythms of life were dictated by the seasons and by the barley and wheat fields. Brewing all-grain is totally contradictory in a society and culture where its all about instant this and that.

So if there is anyway you can brew all-grain, do it. Its one of the most satisfying things you will ever accomplish.
 
Beeratier said:
Been reading this thread and I just gotta chime in on the topic.

I have to say I totally disagree with the people who say that Extract ("if the ingredients are fresh") can be just as good as All-Grain.

Imagine going to a Two Michelin Star Restaurant and going back to the kitchen and finding that all of the meat is in plastic, the vegetables are from cans and the bread is made from a quick mix box. So you ask the head chef, "Whats going on here? Where is the fresh food?", and he says "Not to worry!, everything we cook with here is fresh. Yes, it may come from a can or box but we have been guaranteed by our supplier that nothing is more than 1 month old."

This picture may seem rediculous but its no different than people saying malt extract can make as good a beer as all-grain.

Malt Extract beer is like eating from a can while All-Grain is eating food that was made from scratch.

Extract beer can never, ever be as fresh as an All-Grain beer. Fresh ingredients are key to anything we consume. Nobody argues that pellet hops are just as good as whole fresh hops. Yet people have this idea that a malt syrup from a can or bag can be just as good as making your own fresh extract and brewing with it right then and there.

Randy Mosher states in his book Radical Brewing:

"Malt extract has been largely stripped of aroma, which is why a pound of crystal malt or a mini-mash makes such a dramatic improvement."

Nuff said.

On the flip side, there's plenty of food made from scratch that is nasty. And old.

I'm not sure how you figure a can of extract is not as fresh as grains. Either one could be old or recent. Plus I'm not convinced that 'fresh' really matters in terms of malt, you're mainly dealing with sugars here and as long as it's not spoiled, I'd imagine most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a beer made with 1 month old extract or grains, and one made with 6 month old extract or grains...

Personally, I'm planning on switching to grains just for the cost. Liquid Malt extract at my LHBS is $14 for a 3.3 lb can and it's a pain to bulk mail order in a quantity that you can use up in time. And DME is even more expensive. All grain solves that problem. Instead of the $28 I spent on my last extract batch (2 cans at the LHBS), I can just use $10 worth of grain.
 
debtman7 said:
On the flip side, there's plenty of food made from scratch that is nasty. And old.

I'm not sure how you figure a can of extract is not as fresh as grains. Either one could be old or recent. Plus I'm not convinced that 'fresh' really matters in terms of malt, you're mainly dealing with sugars here and as long as it's not spoiled, I'd imagine most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a beer made with 1 month old extract or grains, and one made with 6 month old extract or grains...

Personally, I'm planning on switching to grains just for the cost. Liquid Malt extract at my LHBS is $14 for a 3.3 lb can and it's a pain to bulk mail order in a quantity that you can use up in time. And DME is even more expensive. All grain solves that problem. Instead of the $28 I spent on my last extract batch (2 cans at the LHBS), I can just use $10 worth of grain.


My original statements are based on the assumption that the grains you are using are fresh. It would be foolish to think that you can use old and stale grains and make better beer than fresh extract. I'm talking about making beer using the absolute freshest ingredients possible.

A friend of mine at the local brew club who is a BJCP officer is obsessed with the freshness of his grain, hops and yeast and thats why he wins a lot of styles and categories he enters. When he gets his Wyeast it was actually made only about a week before. Freshness of ingredients can be the difference between a good beer and a great one.
 
Beeratier said:
My original statements are based on the assumption that the grains you are using are fresh. It would be foolish to think that you can use old and stale grains and make better beer than fresh extract. I'm talking about making beer using the absolute freshest ingredients possible.

A friend of mine at the local brew club who is a BJCP officer is obsessed with the freshness of his grain, hops and yeast and thats why he wins a lot of styles and categories he enters. When he gets his Wyeast it was actually made only about a week before. Freshness of ingredients can be the difference between a good beer and a great one.
I don't dispute that fresh ingredients are good. I don't dispute that beers that perfectly match BJCP guidelines win contests.

I DO dispute your comment about extract - it's either canned or dehydrated and sealed. It doesn't really go bad. If you use a good recipe, it doesn't even add much flavor, since that comes from hops, specialty grains, and adjuncts.

AND I hate BJCP. Admittedly, I sometimes reference the styles as a guide. But who the F$%^ ever said that my beer has to meet some snooty criteria? I may not ever win a contest with my beer, but I may not ever enter it in one...because I like it. My friends like it. People I don't even like like it.

I stick with the gist my original post on this one:
If you like the end result of whatever you call brewing, it's beer. And it's good beer. Even if you made it from horse$hit...after all, that's got grains and converted starches in it, right?

Why am I bothering to post in this thread? ...I hate this argument.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
AND I hate BJCP. Admittedly, I sometimes reference the styles as a guide. But who the F$%^ ever said that my beer has to meet some snooty criteria? I may not ever win a contest with my beer, but I may not ever enter it in one...because I like it. My friends like it. People I don't even like like it.

I stick with the gist my original post on this one:
If you like the end result of whatever you call brewing, it's beer. And it's good beer. Even if you made it from horse$hit...after all, that's got grains and converted starches in it, right?

I actually agree with all of the above :rockin:

I dont ever plan on entering any competitions and I can't really think of anything more unpleasant than taking a bjcp exam.

To me the whole bjcp/judging/styles guidelines thing takes beer and puts it in a box. It turns beer into an educational thing and takes away the inspiration.

Yeah, alot can be learned in the whole judging thing but why not just brew from your gut with passion and creativity. Trust your own palate. This is exactly how the best chefs in the world work. So why not apply it to beer making.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
I DO dispute your comment about extract - it's either canned or dehydrated and sealed. It doesn't really go bad.

FWIW LME does degrade over time as the water in it dissosiates and the sugars oxidize - even inside a can.



The main reason I'm posting in this thread is to thank everyone who participated in the debate for keeping it above the belt, as it were. This one always has huge flame war potential.

Thanks for keeping this a great forum!

:mug:
 
Chairman Cheyco said:
The main reason I'm posting in this thread is to thank everyone who participated in the debate for keeping it above the belt, as it were. This one always has huge flame war potential.
I probably went a little overboard in my rant above. There's some pretty good info in this thread if you weed out the opinions (including my own). Echo the Chairman's thanks, this is a great forum!
 
Yuri_Rage said:
I probably went a little overboard in my rant above. There's some pretty good info in this thread if you weed out the opinions (including my own). Echo the Chairman's thanks, this is a great forum!

I think you were fine. It's ok to have strong opinions, as long as you are open-minded about opposing views and don't get personal. Just because we try to respect each other doesn't mean we have to agree about everything.
 
Well I for one appreciate all the viewpoints, so many opinions out there that sometimes I think ppl just say its not cool to even have an opinion.....
How long does a minimash take overall, it sounds really cool, but do I need any special equipment? And how do I findout how many pts it adds to the wort?
 
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