Red Star Champagne Yeast Barleywine

Here is the recipe, someone please let me know if this will work......Ale-Pocalypse 2012

Style: Specialty Beer OG: 1.117
Type: Partial Mash FG: 1.023
Rating: 0.0 ABV: 12.31 %
Calories: 378 IBU's: 67.09
Efficiency: 65 % Boil Size: 3.00 Gal
Color: * 24.1 SRM Batch Size: 5.00 Gal
Boil Time: 60 minutes

Fermentation Steps
Name Days / Temp
Primary 21 days @ 68.0°F
Secondary 14 days @ 68.0°F
Bottle/Keg 180 days @ 64.0°F

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
12.00 lbs 64.86 % Munton's Light LME 60 mins 1.037
2.00 lbs 10.81 % Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L 60 mins 1.034
1.50 lbs 8.11 % Maize, Flaked 60 mins 1.037
1.00 lbs 5.41 % Briess Rye Malt 60 mins 1.035
1.00 lbs 5.41 % Briess Barley, Flaked 60 mins 1.035
1.00 lbs 5.41 % Cara-Pils/Dextrine 60 mins 1.033

Hops
Amount Name Time
4.00 ozs Simcoe 60 mins

Yeasts
Amount Name Laboratory / ID
3.0 pkg Red Star Pasteur Champagne Yeast

Additions
Amount Name Time Stage
12.00 oz Light Toast American Oak Chips Soaked in Whiskey 14 days Secondary

Mash Profile
Medium Body Infusion 60 min @ 154.0°F
Add 8.12 qt ( 1.25 qt/lb ) water @ 167.4°F

Carbonation
Amount Type Beer Temp CO2 Vols
2.50 oz Table Sugar - Bottle Carbonation 64.0°F 1.90

why champagne yeast? and that's a lot of specialty grain. i'd assume you would be left with a rather high FG

The og after i only had room for 1 gallon of water (added) was 1.120. I pitched all 3 yeast pkg at 75f. But i cant keep the temps high enough in my fridge (controller is on the way) its in the mid 50's. What should i do? Cold and slow or bring it into the house @ 64f at night fluctuating to 70f during the day?

grssmnperez said:

The og after i only had room for 1 gallon of water (added) was 1.120. I pitched all 3 yeast pkg at 75f. But i cant keep the temps high enough in my fridge (controller is on the way) its in the mid 50's. What should i do? Cold and slow or bring it into the house @ 64f at night fluctuating to 70f during the day?

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Im
In san antonio tx and its been over 100f for the past few days so its getting hard to control ambient temps in the house lately.

well red star champagne yeast is "best" between 15 and 30 C. so thats 59-86F. sounds like you could keep it in your house..

Good i just didnt want ti crash it so i just brought it in and i am placing it in a cool dark closet.

OP, are you being serious when you say you're making a champagne-yeast-only barleywine?

i'm no expert on the matter, but everything i've read says that champagne yeast can only digest simple sugars. they can't break down maltose, so you'll end up with a very high FG since the yeast can't chomp on most of the sugars in your wort. you need to get some ale yeast in there.

peanut gallery, please chime in here...

I have a hard time getting a low FG on big beers with just a little crystal and base malt

sweetcell said:

OP, are you being serious when you say you're making a champagne-yeast-only barleywine?

i'm no expert on the matter, but everything i've read says that champagne yeast can only digest simple sugars. they can't break down maltose, so you'll end up with a very high FG since the yeast can't chomp on most of the sugars in your wort. you need to get some ale yeast in there.

peanut gallery, please chime in here...

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Its so hot i worry about transporting liquid yeast (WL super HG) in the car for the 40minute ride home from the lhbs. Any suggestions on what else to pitch that will make it home in 100f plus temps and when i should pitch it sine i already have all 3 going pretty wild and it has only been about 24hours?

for the ride home from the store bring a cooler with a few ice packs. that should keep it cool enough.

a saison yeast is what you want: http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60, same as WLP565. if you can, keep it under 80 for the first few days (search for "swamp cooler") then let it float up to ambient temp. this strain needs to get over 90*F, eventually, to finish up. just don't start out at 90 if you can help it.

sweetcell said:

for the ride home from the store bring a cooler with a few ice packs. that should keep it cool enough.

a saison yeast is what you want: http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60, same as WLP565. if you can, keep it under 80 for the first few days (search for "swamp cooler") then let it float up to ambient temp. this strain needs to get over 90*F, eventually, to finish up. just don't start out at 90 if you can help it.

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a saison barleywine would certainly be interesting..

but saisons are the way to go for higher temps. defiantly something to think about for future summer batches. try some commercial versions. I'd recommend La Merle by north coast. If you cant find that, Saison Dupont, Ommegang Hennepin, and Allagash's saison all are highly regarded as great saisons.

Also do some research about swamp coolers. basically a bucket full of water and ice that you place your fermenter in. this way you can rotate out frozen water bottles to keep the ambient temps in-check. really helps regulate and manage temperature during hot summer days. and the added volume of water helps keep the temperature more steady (harder for the ambient temps change the beer temp).

also i don't know a lot about champagne yeast. but time will tell. if all else fails, and you end with an unusually high FG. you can pitch a starter of ale yeast at high krausen to try to bring down the FG. maybe some added sugar? I'd like to hear some more experienced brewers chime in on the subject.

Paging all brewers! help us out here!

You could see if your lhbs has some amylase enzyme, that will break the long chain sugars down so the yeast will be able to go to work.

Yep, kinda bass ackwards. The champagne yeast may get the alcohol high enough the ale yeast won't thrive. High gravity ale yeast for sure.

You definitely need to pitch something that can consume malt sugars; champagne yeast (or any wine yeast I know of) won't do the trick.

It seems to be fermenting pretty well.

grssmnperez said:

It seems to be fermenting pretty well.

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Sorry for the double pic.

grssmnperez said:

It seems to be fermenting pretty well.

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yup, the champagne is munching away on the simple sugars. i suspect that once it's done, you'll still have a brew with a gravity of ~1.040. i deally you should make a big starter of WLP099 (white lab's high-gravity ale yeast) and throw that in.

I had a barleywine go down from 1.100 to 1.016 using S-04. Super high gravity yeast is not needed if you treat your normal ale yest correctly.

urbanmyth said:

I had a barleywine go down from 1.100 to 1.016 using S-04. Super high gravity yeast is not needed if you treat your normal ale yest correctly.

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right, but that S-04 started in a 0% alcohol environment and slowly adapted to the rising alcohol levels it was creating. in this case the champagne yeast will already have created some amount of alcohol (4%? 6%?), that is a shocking environment to pitch some poor unsuspecting yeast into. taking yeast that has just woken up and throwing it into an alcoholic solution does not constitute "treating your normal ale yest correctly".

sweetcell said:

right, but that S-04 started in a 0% alcohol environment and slowly adapted to the rising alcohol levels it was creating. in this case the champagne yeast will already have created some amount of alcohol (4%? 6%?), that is a shocking environment to pitch some poor unsuspecting yeast into. taking yeast that has just woken up and throwing it into an alcoholic solution does not constitute "treating your normal ale yest correctly".

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So pretty much all i can do is put in a yeast that is for high abv like super HG yeast or distiller and some beano tablets to convert the inedible sugars?

When/if the gravity stalls out. Make a starter of some really high alcohol tolerant ale yeast. Wait till the krausen high, and the starter is most active, then pitch the whole thing. That way the yeast will be somewhat used to an alcoholic environment, and pitching at high krausen should get them started quickly. Worth a shot

grssmnperez said:

So pretty much all i can do is put in a yeast that is for high abv like super HG yeast or distiller and some beano tablets to convert the inedible sugars?

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pitching a hig-gracity ale yeast isn't your only option, but it's the most certain one IMO. be sure to make a starter of whatever yeast you go with. along with the 099, Wyeast 1388 or 3787 are other options. the 099 is probably your best bet, tho. be sure to make a big starter, pitch at high krausen, and don't forget to aerate really well.

you could indeed pitch some rehydrated S-04 and see how that goes. i'd pitch a lot, like 2 packets. this is the cheap option, if it works. if not, you're out a few bucks for the dry yeast and need to start over with the liquid yeast.

personally i'd stay away from distiller yeast.

sweetcell said:

pitching a hig-gracity ale yeast isn't your only option, but it's the most certain one IMO. be sure to make a starter of whatever yeast you go with. along with the 099, Wyeast 1388 or 3787 are other options. the 099 is probably your best bet, tho. be sure to make a big starter, pitch at high krausen, and don't forget to aerate really well.

you could indeed pitch some rehydrated S-04 and see how that goes. i'd pitch a lot, like 2 packets. this is the cheap option, if it works. if not, you're out a few bucks for the dry yeast and need to start over with the liquid yeast.

personally i'd stay away from distiller yeast.

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Its not really about the cost. Its the viability of the yeast on a 45 minute ride home from the lhbs in an unairconditioned car in 100f temps

as suggested previously, a cooler (or even a tupperware inside a few cloth bags, or wrapped in a towel) and some ice/ice packs should keep the yeast plenty cool enough over an hour.

sweetcell said:

right, but that S-04 started in a 0% alcohol environment and slowly adapted to the rising alcohol levels it was creating. in this case the champagne yeast will already have created some amount of alcohol (4%? 6%?), that is a shocking environment to pitch some poor unsuspecting yeast into. taking yeast that has just woken up and throwing it into an alcoholic solution does not constitute "treating your normal ale yest correctly".

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I hadn't realized he already fermented this half-way.

yeah definitely ice packs. Some lhbs will even give you a few if they have them. I had a guy give me some for a trip from memphis to alabama. As for the yeast strain, any highly attenuative yeast has always done me good. I have to agree with sweet cell about the ale strain choice. Farmhouse strains seem to be great for barleywine.

bluewaterbrewer said:

yeah definitely ice packs. Some lhbs will even give you a few if they have them. I had a guy give me some for a trip from memphis to alabama. As for the yeast strain, any highly attenuative yeast has always done me good. I have to agree with sweet cell about the ale strain choice. Farmhouse strains seem to be great for barleywine.

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Farmhouse strains? Example.

farmhouse = saison.

What is going on here? Did the yeast quit on me or something?

what is making you thin that the yeast quit? that picture doesn't tell me anything.

have you re-pitched an ale yeast? if you're still only on champagne yeast, you should expect it to quit... per the advice everyone has given you in this thread.

sweetcell said:

what is making you thin that the yeast quit? that picture doesn't tell me anything.

have you re-pitched an ale yeast? if you're still only on champagne yeast, you should expect it to quit... per the advice everyone has given you in this thread.

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Is it too late to pitch if i go to lhbs in the morning? This is my first experience with a big beer like this so my research prior to brewing has only taken me so far until this point. I dont want to make excuses but i am serving in the military and it has been a nightmare to get out of work in time for my lhbs to still be open.

Probably isn't too late. The champagne yeast converted the simple sugars into alcohol, so that should prevent most nasties from getting a foothold. Buy some high-gravity yeast, make a big starter, and pitch at high krausen (which means likely not before tomorrow morning).

Champagne yeast is typically used two ways in high gravity brewing: 1. After the ale yeast has pooped out b/c the alcohol is too high (10-12%), champagne yeast can be used to continue to convert simple sugars into alcohol. This allows you to get above that 12% limit. (aside: you need to do a lot more than just this to get above 12%: proper pitching and O2 aeration, for example). 2. At bottling time, some people add a small amount of champagne yeast to ensure carbonation. This is often needed if the high gravity beer has been bulk aged for a long time.

Best of luck. I hope this has been helpful!

I believe that champagne yeast is a "killer" strain and will kill other yeasts (including an ale strain). If you listen to the Shea Comfort interview on the Brewing Network, he goes into great detail about wine yeasts in beer.

I've never fermented with champagne yeast. From everything I have read, it will only consume the simple sugars. From your pictures, it looks like it is done and the yeast is dropping out. Can you take a gravity reading and post it. A lot of folks will be interested in this real life experiment with the yeast aand how far it has taken it down.

Now .... how to take it down further! Yes, champagne yeast is a killer strain, and will make it difficult for an ale strain to survive. You probably need to leave it alone for a couple of weeks to let most of the champagne yeast drop out. This will give an ale yeast a chance. Rack the beer off the yeast.

Next, as previously said, get a high gravity yeast, 099, or something that can run up to 15% or above, but not distillers yeast.

Make a decent sized starter. A half gallon. Aerate well to get the yeast population high. When the starter is going well, add half a gallon of the beer to the starter. This will get the yeast used to the high alcohol environment. When that is going well (probably the next day), add the whole gallon back to the main batch. Place in the corner and leave it alone for a few weeks. It could take a while to finish as you will not have the optimum number of cells to do the job.

Don't worry about getting things done quickly. The high gravity will provide plenty of protection for the beer. Have patience.

It appears that it already has dropped out.

You take a hydrometer reading? I'm curious as to what that will get you down to.
It should be fine just sitting there as is until you can get some ale yeast and pitch that.

On my way to lhbs to pickup yeast. I will take reading right before i pitch.

grssmnperez said:

View attachment 65034

It appears that it already has dropped out.

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there is still plenty of yeast in suspension. most has dropped out, but not all.

you could look into campden tablets, maybe? they'll kill the yeast, but i don't know how long their effect lasts. you want to kill the champagne yeast, but still have an environment that is hospitable to the ale yeast afterwards. time to start searching through the forum!

grssmnperez said:

On my way to lhbs to pickup yeast. I will take reading right before i pitch.

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awesome, let us know what you measure.

Here we go. Numbers will be up shortly.

Here ya go!