Good taste at kegging, but not after aging and drinkin...

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zinger084

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So all 6 batches of beer that I have brewed taste good when I transfer from my secondary to my kegs. The problem is that after I prime, shut the lid, age for a a few months, and then drink from the keg, they all have the same taste. It's like a bitter harsh taste and no matter what the style of beer is, they are the exact same tasting. There is also absolutely no aroma whatsoever.

I have no idea what's going on here. I am anal about sanitation and all. My kegs are clean when I transfer the beer.

I do pour the priming water/sugar mixture in the keg while it's still warm/hot, so could this possibly could be it.

On my latest brew (GLBC Christmas Ale Clone) I let the water/sugar solution cool down to room temp by placing in the freezer. Got to wait a few months to see if this is the problem...

Is there something I might be doing wrong?:confused:
 
Not sure......I would try a batch age it in a secondary instead of the keg. Force carb it instead of using the sugar. Just leave it at 10 psi for a week to two weeks and see if there is a difference. I never use priming solution whe I have CO2
 
I had a similar problem. I aged a red ale for about 3 months in a keg and it came out tasting quite bad, a little like dirt. Even the bottles from the same batch had the same taste. I used the same yeast in subsequent batches of cream ale, and there was no problem. Very strange. It was my first attempt to age a keg for more than a few weeks, and it kind of put me off that idea. I'll have another go, though.
 
rwinzing said:
... I never use priming solution whe I have CO2
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I think I might do this... because it's either the priming sugar (corn) or an infection in the keg (not sure how it could be the same infection in 6 batches of kegs though...)
 
I highly doubt its the priming sugar. How much are you using? Is the beer overcarbonated?

You are in Ohio, what do you use as your water source?
 
Could you be over-ageing the beers ? Not every beer benefits from long ageing. Maybe try sampling them each week from the keg to see when they peak.
 
dfohio said:
I highly doubt its the priming sugar. How much are you using? Is the beer overcarbonated?

You are in Ohio, what do you use as your water source?
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3/4 of a cup for 5 gal... not overcarbed...

i use spring water from acme. i heard with malt extract you can use DI or RO since the minerals also are in the malt extract
 
Diablo said:
Could you be over-ageing the beers ? Not every beer benefits from long ageing. Maybe try sampling them each week from the keg to see when they peak.
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I don't think I am overaging... they are in the primary for about 2 weeks, then secondary for about 1 week, then keg for about 1 month...

i thought that green beer taste would slowly fade with longer aging. i am really lost here and about to bring a bottle to my LHBS and have them tell me what's up.
 
It could be an infection anywhere in your process that only is noticeable after some time in your keg.
 
zinger084 said:
no, i am not purging any air... not sure what this would do...
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Purging the keg would remove the oxygen from the headspace and seat the lid, sealing the keg.

You said kegs were clean so I take it you have replaced all o-rings and cleaned all posts?

I had the same thing in my first brews, but it was from my water. If you use spring water, you should be fine. However, you don't really know what is in the spring water. Try to get an analysis from the company or try distilled once.
 
profarm said:
+1 on this...also what are your fermentation temps?
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I will try purging some air from the kegs after a few days.

My fermentation temps around around 64-68 (basement).

I guess it could be an infection that is lingering or something. I only changed out the o-rings that were pretty bad looking (lid seal, some post o-rings). I didn't pull the dipstick and replace those or anything and I didn't think this was absolutely necessary. I sanitize every keg right before kegging the beer. I always make sure that some of the sanitizer runs up the dipstick as well.

I'll have to see how this latest brew comes out (GLBC Christmas Ale Clone). I am really excited to have it out of the keg, and I hope it tastes just like it did going in. If not, I am about to buy a bunch of secondaries and drink from there :)
 
It might be the style of beers you are making and the fact that your aging them for a while (you said couple of months). Does the whole keg taste that way or is it perhaps you are tasting the bottom sediment of the first couple of pints from the keg. If you mad an IPA or used a fair amount of hops, the first couple of pints will have a bit more sediment. I know the second half of my keg taste quite different from the first.
 
JesseRC said:
It might be the style of beers you are making and the fact that your aging them for a while (you said couple of months). Does the whole keg taste that way or is it perhaps you are tasting the bottom sediment of the first couple of pints from the keg. If you mad an IPA or used a fair amount of hops, the first couple of pints will have a bit more sediment. I know the second half of my keg taste quite different from the first.
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My beers in order since starting in July...

Oatmeal Stout
ESB
IPA - on tap
Munich Helles - on tap
Nut Brown Ale - 5 weeks kegged
GLBC Christmas Ale Clone - 3 days kegged

The whole keg tastes this way. The first few when tapping a new one always have some sediment, and then it settles to perfectly clear beer.

It's sorda like how GLBC / Sam Adams / Leinenkugel's / others have the same underlying taste accross the board - but all my beers are extremely the same tasting with no aroma at all.
 
I am using LD Carlson DME. It's a little cheaper than Muntons. Not sure about freshness, but I know my LHBS moves it pretty well. I don't see how it could be the DME if it tastes extremely good when I move it from the secondary to the keg.
 
First, you can't just "allow sanitizer to go up the diptube". Take it apart. Replace the o-rings, and clean and sanitize fully.

Secondly, you MUST purge the keg immediately upon filling. You could even put some co2 in the keg before racking your beer into it. Close it up, then give it a blast of c02 (I do it at 30 psi), pull the pressure relief valve, and do it a couple of more time. Oxidized beer will have an unpleasant flavor, a certain wet cardboard flavor, and it will be apparent if you age the beers for several weeks/months with 02 in the keg.

I think those two techniques will fix any problems with your poor flavor.

Also, 2.5 ounces (by weight) of priming sugar is sufficient for one keg. You don't need 3/4 of a cup. That's for bottling.
 
Its probably oxidation or infection. Some infections don't really add any off flavor but can remove flavor, body or sweetness. This can leave the beer out of balance and tasting harshly bitter in some cases.

I don't see why if you are keg priming you would need to purge the keg of oxygen. People bottle conditioning aren't purging the bottles of oxygen. There is less relative head space in a keg too, I think this is a red herring.

I also think anything to do with ingredients or water is a red herring. I have not known bad ingredients to make a good tasting beer that later tastes bad. Infection and oxidation do that.
 
I don't think purging the keg will do any good. You are priming with sugar, so just like bottling, the yeast will purge the oxygen for you. I don't think it's an infection either as they usually have a sour/musty taste that you did not describe.

How do the AAs on your hops compare to the recipe? By chance was your extract prehopped? You say "no aroma" - and that's usually a sign that there is something going on with your hops.

Next time you prime, you could bottle a few to see if by chance there is a problem in your kegs to eliminate that concern.

I know people say that green beer is bad, but I've had it both ways. I've had beer that takes 6 months to peak, but I've also had beer that was at its peak when it was first carbed.
 
YooperBrew said:
First, you can't just "allow sanitizer to go up the diptube". Take it apart. Replace the o-rings, and clean and sanitize fully.

Secondly, you MUST purge the keg immediately upon filling. You could even put some co2 in the keg before racking your beer into it. Close it up, then give it a blast of c02 (I do it at 30 psi), pull the pressure relief valve, and do it a couple of more time. Oxidized beer will have an unpleasant flavor, a certain wet cardboard flavor, and it will be apparent if you age the beers for several weeks/months with 02 in the keg.

I think those two techniques will fix any problems with your poor flavor.

Also, 2.5 ounces (by weight) of priming sugar is sufficient for one keg. You don't need 3/4 of a cup. That's for bottling.
Click to expand...

First, I have never heard of people taking their kegs apart for every single use to clean and sanitize. Only upon receipt of new kegs and what not. I force sanitizer through the dipstick via air compressor hookups and sanitize. i have heard of numerous people doing this.

Secondly, I don't see the need for purging the keg of O2 with CO2. I am not introducing O2 into the beer since it is already at it's saturation point of gas with the CO2 from fermentation. Once the kegged beer finishes fermenting the priming sugar, the beer will be saturated with CO2 (supersaturated at STP)... not O2. Since I'm not blowing bubbles of O2 into the beer after kegging, I don't see the need.
 
smiths9312 said:
I don't think purging the keg will do any good. You are priming with sugar, so just like bottling, the yeast will purge the oxygen for you. I don't think it's an infection either as they usually have a sour/musty taste that you did not describe.

How do the AAs on your hops compare to the recipe? By chance was your extract prehopped? You say "no aroma" - and that's usually a sign that there is something going on with your hops.

Next time you prime, you could bottle a few to see if by chance there is a problem in your kegs to eliminate that concern.

I know people say that green beer is bad, but I've had it both ways. I've had beer that takes 6 months to peak, but I've also had beer that was at its peak when it was first carbed.
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I don't think it's oxidation either.

The AA's are balanced with the OG. The extract I buy is not prehopped. I use LD Carlson DME Pilsen Light for all my batches so I can control the color with my steeping grains. Really though, there is like no aroma at all and I can't see how that is the case. Maybe I have had a sinus infection since July and can't smell.

I might try and bottle a few I guess, but when i started into this hobby, I skipped bottling and went straight to kegging. I need to find a capper and some caps...

I have tried to use the flavor/aroma wheel found online to try and pinpoint my downfall but the beer taste is really not any found on the wheel.

flavorwheel.gif
 
remilard said:
Its probably oxidation or infection. Some infections don't really add any off flavor but can remove flavor, body or sweetness. This can leave the beer out of balance and tasting harshly bitter in some cases.

I don't see why if you are keg priming you would need to purge the keg of oxygen. People bottle conditioning aren't purging the bottles of oxygen. There is less relative head space in a keg too, I think this is a red herring.

I also think anything to do with ingredients or water is a red herring. I have not known bad ingredients to make a good tasting beer that later tastes bad. Infection and oxidation do that.
Click to expand...

I've actually had bad water do that. The beer tasted fine coming out of the secondary. As soon as it was carbonated, the harsh flavors came through. I don't have any scientific reasoning for it.
I corrected my water and that fixed the problem. (not saying water is the OP's problem, but it hasn't exactly been ruled out yet either.)
 
dfohio said:
I've actually had bad water do that. The beer tasted fine coming out of the secondary. As soon as it was carbonated, the harsh flavors came through. I don't have any scientific reasoning for it.
I corrected my water and that fixed the problem. (not saying water is the OP's problem, but it hasn't exactly been ruled out yet either.)
Click to expand...

Well, since that was your problem as well, I am starting to wonder if that's the case. The thing is, my IPA is the only beer I made with Distilled water, not the Spring water I have used for the rest of my brews. The IPA actually tastes a lot different than the others. I ruled this out already, but it may be back in play as being the culprit, since this was the case with you after kegging.

What water are you using (or are you building it)?
 
I build mine from distilled now. The first couple batches I made with my well water, thinking that if it tasted fine, then it must make good beer...WRONG!

I wouldn't draw any conclusions yet. However, I would try to contact ACME and see if they have a water analysis for their spring water. Then go from there...
 
zinger084 said:
First, I have never heard of people taking their kegs apart for every single use to clean and sanitize. Only upon receipt of new kegs and what not. I force sanitizer through the dipstick via air compressor hookups and sanitize. i have heard of numerous people doing this.

Secondly, I don't see the need for purging the keg of O2 with CO2. I am not introducing O2 into the beer since it is already at it's saturation point of gas with the CO2 from fermentation. Once the kegged beer finishes fermenting the priming sugar, the beer will be saturated with CO2 (supersaturated at STP)... not O2. Since I'm not blowing bubbles of O2 into the beer after kegging, I don't see the need.
Click to expand...

I didn't say to do it every single time (although I often do, and have found hop leaves and other debris in the poppit). If there is an off-flavor you're trying to chase down, though, it's important to do it to ensure there is no infection/dirty poppit/crud/yeast sediment/yucky o-ring, etc. Something is causing the trouble, so it would be worth it to start at the beginning. Since it's fine up until kegging, I would start with the kegs.

Maybe it isn't oxidation, but purging the keg of oxygen and flooding with co2 would remove that possibility, too. Oxidized beer is flavorless, and loses much of its aroma and distinctiveness. That's why I thought it would be worthwhile to prevent any possibility of it. Your description certainly sounds like an oxidation issue to me.

If you don't want to purge the o2 out, that's fine with me. It only takes about $.01 worth of co2, though, and it's a good preventative. I'm just making suggestions to help you track down your problem. If you don't want to take my advice, that's perfectly fine.
 
YooperBrew said:
I didn't say to do it every single time (although I often do, and have found hop leaves and other debris in the poppit). If there is an off-flavor you're trying to chase down, though, it's important to do it to ensure there is no infection/dirty poppit/crud/yeast sediment/yucky o-ring, etc. Something is causing the trouble, so it would be worth it to start at the beginning. Since it's fine up until kegging, I would start with the kegs.

Maybe it isn't oxidation, but purging the keg of oxygen and flooding with co2 would remove that possibility, too. Oxidized beer is flavorless, and loses much of its aroma and distinctiveness. That's why I thought it would be worthwhile to prevent any possibility of it. Your description certainly sounds like an oxidation issue to me.

If you don't want to purge the o2 out, that's fine with me. It only takes about $.01 worth of co2, though, and it's a good preventative. I'm just making suggestions to help you track down your problem. If you don't want to take my advice, that's perfectly fine.
Click to expand...

So it has to be either my water or the kegs. I guess I will take apart the keg next time and completely clean all the parts (need to get a deep well socket for the ball locks).

Now that you explained what oxidized beer taste like (or lack thereof), I am going half in on it being that. After I keg it next time, I am going to not use priming sugar, and I am going to pressurize with CO2 and flip the poppet a few times to clear as much O2 as possible. I might even try to clear my keg I just filled this past Monday with CO2 to see if that's it. I am still a little skeptical of this though since you don't clear bottles with CO2 from the post earlier in this thread...
 
zinger084 said:
Secondly, I don't see the need for purging the keg of O2 with CO2. I am not introducing O2 into the beer since it is already at it's saturation point of gas with the CO2 from fermentation. Once the kegged beer finishes fermenting the priming sugar, the beer will be saturated with CO2 (supersaturated at STP)... not O2. Since I'm not blowing bubbles of O2 into the beer after kegging, I don't see the need.
Click to expand...

First, people use a lot more sugar to bottle carb then keg carb, so theres a lot more pressure from CO2. Second, theres a lot more oxygen in most Kegs (compared to bottles). The shape of a bottle is designed so that theres as little volume in the neck as possible, and as small of an air-beer interface as possible.
 
Synovia said:
First, people use a lot more sugar to bottle carb then keg carb, so theres a lot more pressure from CO2. Second, theres a lot more oxygen in most Kegs (compared to bottles). The shape of a bottle is designed so that theres as little volume in the neck as possible, and as small of an air-beer interface as possible.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree, there is a lot more O2 in kegs but if the beer is already at its saturation point with gas (CO2 in this case from fermentation), there really isn't any way that the O2 sitting on top of the beer would dissolve into the beer. With the pressure in the keg building from the yeast eating the priming sugar, the beer would be super saturated with CO2 at STP.

Either way, I think I will try and clean the keg of O2 next shot I get... and I am going to use Distilled water I think...
 
I had this exact problem, with harsh bitter tasting beer after it was kegged. I would transfer the beer from secondary and it would be great, then as soon as I drank some from the keg a couple weeks later, it was horrible.

I found the problem to be dirty poppets in the beer line tank plug. I bought my keg from a questionable LHBS and I could not get the poppets out of the plugs to save my life, so I just soaked them as is, and that turned out to be a bad idea.

Try this as an experiment. Taste the beer out of the keg by popping off the top and ladling out some beer. Then taste it by pouring it normally. Is there a difference? At least that will eliminate some possibilities. I found out my beer in the keg still tasted great, and completely different than the stuff coming out of the tap.

I do take my kegs apart and clean them completely after every brew. I'm willing to bet it's your poppets. If it is, take them out of the tank plug, and boil them in a pan. That helped, but didn't fix my problem. It only went away when I replaced my bad poppets.

Hope this helps.
 
Nyxator said:
I had this exact problem, with harsh bitter tasting beer after it was kegged. I would transfer the beer from secondary and it would be great, then as soon as I drank some from the keg a couple weeks later, it was horrible.

I found the problem to be dirty poppets in the beer line tank plug. I bought my keg from a questionable LHBS and I could not get the poppets out of the plugs to save my life, so I just soaked them as is, and that turned out to be a bad idea.

Try this as an experiment. Taste the beer out of the keg by popping off the top and ladling out some beer. Then taste it by pouring it normally. Is there a difference? At least that will eliminate some possibilities. I found out my beer in the keg still tasted great, and completely different than the stuff coming out of the tap.

I do take my kegs apart and clean them completely after every brew. I'm willing to bet it's your poppets. If it is, take them out of the tank plug, and boil them in a pan. That helped, but didn't fix my problem. It only went away when I replaced my bad poppets.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

So are you talking about the poppet valve in the lid of the keg? - because I am not sure what you mean by the beer line tank plug. Once I figure out what this elusive piece is, I am going to see if they are clean or not.

EDIT: I think it's the valve at the top where you connect the beer line coupling?

I need to get that deep well socket ASAP...
 
zinger084 said:
Yes, I agree, there is a lot more O2 in kegs but if the beer is already at its saturation point with gas (CO2 in this case from fermentation), there really isn't any way that the O2 sitting on top of the beer would dissolve into the beer. With the pressure in the keg building from the yeast eating the priming sugar, the beer would be super saturated with CO2 at STP.
Click to expand...

When you take a beer, at say 60 degrees (cellar temperature) and put it in a keg fridge, at say, 38 degrees, it is going to absorb almost every little bit of gas in it. Even the oxygen. The saturation point of a keg at 38 degrees is a lot different from that at 60.
 
The tank plug is this guy:

dsc01347.jpg


The poppet valve inside it is what I'm talking about:

dsc01409.jpg


Be sure to taste the beer inside the keg by ladling some out and compare it to what comes out of the tap.
 
Synovia said:
When you take a beer, at say 60 degrees (cellar temperature) and put it in a keg fridge, at say, 38 degrees, it is going to absorb almost every little bit of gas in it. Even the oxygen. The saturation point of a keg at 38 degrees is a lot different from that at 60.
Click to expand...

True. And when I place it in the kegerator to chill it to 45F, I hook up the CO2 and cycle the poppet a few times anyways... so I guess I'm already doing this.
 
Nyxator said:
The tank plug is this guy:

The poppet valve inside it is what I'm talking about:

Be sure to taste the beer inside the keg by ladling some out and compare it to what comes out of the tap.
Click to expand...

Looks like this is going to be the first thing I try in addition to changing over to Distilled Water to use.

Anyone know what size socket the plug valve takes to remove?
 
I have historically broken the kegs down for cleaning each time. I can break a keg down and reassemble it in about a minute, if I am drinking beer at the same time.

For a while I have been using a CIP keg cleaner, pumping PBW through the opening and both dip tubes continuously. These kegs always have very clean post assemblies so I might start breaking them down less frequently.

As for socket sizes, there are two sizes ball locks use which I can remember off the top of my head (might be 5/8 and 7/8). It is usually about the same price to buy a deep socket set as it is to buy individuals of both sizes. This assumes you have a mix of the two sizes like I do, you might have all of one.

Either way you can check with a regular socket to see which fits before you go out to buy the deep socket.
 
I have THREE different sizes! I have some that are 11/16", and some are 7/8" and one is the size that I can't remember off the top of my head, but I hauled my keg to the hardware store to get the right one!

I also have two kegs that are a 12 point star.

If you've NEVER broken down the keg, I bet that's where the flavor is coming from. There are o-rings inside there, too, that need to be checked and cleaned, as well as the poppit itself. But you have described oxidation symptoms, too.

One thing to keep in mind that it's not either/or. You can still prime as usual, but use some co2 to fill the headspace and purge a few times. In fact, some of my kegs don't even seal well without a shot of co2. So, even if I'm priming the keg, I use some co2 to purge the headspace and seat the lid better.
 
YooperBrew said:
I have THREE different sizes! I have some that are 11/16", and some are 7/8" and one is the size that I can't remember off the top of my head, but I hauled my keg to the hardware store to get the right one!

I also have two kegs that are a 12 point star.

If you've NEVER broken down the keg, I bet that's where the flavor is coming from. There are o-rings inside there, too, that need to be checked and cleaned, as well as the poppit itself. But you have described oxidation symptoms, too.

One thing to keep in mind that it's not either/or. You can still prime as usual, but use some co2 to fill the headspace and purge a few times. In fact, some of my kegs don't even seal well without a shot of co2. So, even if I'm priming the keg, I use some co2 to purge the headspace and seat the lid better.
Click to expand...

I am going to continue priming and start using CO2 to clear headspace then. Since the beer tastes good going into the keg, if it is oxidizing, I guess it has to be while the O2 is sitting on top of the beer in the keg.

I also have a 12-point star plug on a few of my kegs.

No, they have never been apart, so that is probably a good start to go ahead and pull them apart. I just really want to find out what's happening here. Guess I better start CO2'ing and ripping apart plugs tonight.
 
the post sizes are usually 7/8" or 11/16" and sometimes that funky 12 point size. I tear down my kegs every time as well, mostly to clean/sanitize and inspect for potential issues before they grow into big problems.
 

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