New B-Day March Pump Question

Among other great brewing items, my wife actually ordered me a March pump for my new sanke set up. I've read a bunch of threads re: QDs for this thing, and my only question is this. Why is speed such an issue when moving these things? I'd like to try to keep the extra expenses for the pump to a minimum and it seems like barbed brass garden hose fittings would work just fine.

Am I missing something?

Yes & No! LOL...I am not a big fan of the QD's and your question is valid. The QD's are quick and easy, but not a great deal of time is saved mostly because you only need to switch hoses a few times during the brew session. I also think they are too expensive. Additionally, if you get the type with the built in check valves, these have a cross shaped piece inside which can get clogged with debris sometimes. These also appear to be somewhat restrictive for the same reason, although I can't say for certain as I have not used any.

The brass fittings you are considering will work just fine, but they can get very hot and you will need gloves to handle them. My solution was to buy the same type garden hose fittings made of nylon instead of brass. These are very inexpensive from here:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...=USPlastic&category_name=6913&product_id=7732

FWIW, here's a couple of tips that may save you some grief. Use female fitting on all of your hoses and male fittings on all of your equipment. This permits you to attach either end of a hose minimizing the hassle factor. Buy large inside diameter hose. I use 5/8" ID braided PVC also purchased from U.S. Plastics. The reason you want large diameter hose is because the barbed fittings are restrictive. (the ID of a 5/8" barb is only nominally about 1/2"). Bigger is better within reason, of course. The commonly used pumps are designed for use with a minimum of 1/2" ID hose. This is most important on the suction side of the pump. The other suggestion I have is to keep the hoses as short as possible. This reduces the frictional losses and improves pump performance. Garden hose fittings have coarse threads which has two benefits. Coarse threads are faster to connect and disconnect and they are less likely to cross thread or strip. The GH fittings seal with a gasket and do not require tape or sealant as would pipe threaded fittings. Most of the pumps have 1/2" pipe threads and will require an adapter to convert to GH threads. You can use brass, SS or nylon adapters on the pump. I used brass simply because I already had them. You won't normally need to touch the adapter so it doesn't matter if it gets hot or not. If I were to do it over, I would get the nylon version of the adapters. Again, they are hugely cheaper than anything else and IMO, there is no down side. I have not stripped one yet, and if I do, I have spares that cost almost nothing at something like $0.69 each.

Get the right fittings and hoses the first time so that you don't do what I did and replace everything multiple times at a considerable expense. A lot of the guys on here prefer the high temp silicone hoses and expensive QD's and if you want to spend a lot of money, that's certainly one way to do it. Those will work and work well I am sure, but just not my preference.

Wow, great response! I really appreciate it, very thorough.

The only thing then is the temp, which should be just fine at 200. I can't think of any reason I would be pumping near boiling water.

Looks like a US plastics order is in my future.

Thanks, the pump stays!!

Barbed fittings will work, and are definitely cheaper. However, if you use a barbed fitting with flexible hose you'll want to have a hose clamp on that. Without one, you run the risk of leaking wort/water or sucking air into the pump which can cause it to lose the prime and stop working. The brass QD's were not cheap, but not expensive either and they offer flexibility of changing hoses as needed with no fuss. I think I spent another $80 on QD's and silicone tubing...but unless something breaks I'll never have to buy that stuff again. I'm sure you can find a cheaper route, but I hate buying equipment twice. I think brass QD's and silicone hose is a great alternative to SS QD's and hard plumbed lines. YMMV.

Cost Breakdown for Brass QD's and Food Grade Silicone Hose:
90 degree Female QD w/ 1/2" hose barb: http://www.mcmaster.com/#6739k68/=3g3s2m
5 x $8.01 = $40.05 (2 per hose, 2 hoses, 1 for boil kettle drain hose)

Male QD 1/2" NPT: 4 x http://www.mcmaster.com/#6739k59/=3g3t7n
6 x $1.93 = $11.58 (2-Pump, 1-Boil kettle, 1-HLT, 1-MLT, 1-Sparge Arm)

1/2" High Temp silicone hose: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=10014
$2.10/ft. x 15 ft. = $31.50

Total Cost: $83.13
If you wanted to, you could cut out a few QD's for the sparge arm and the kettle drain hose and also cut down the hose length to 12 feet. You can also use the straight female QD's on some of those connections which are a couple bucks cheaper than the angled ones. Still a bit spendy, but well worth the price IMHO.

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

Barbed fittings will work, and are definitely cheaper. However, if you use a barbed fitting with flexible hose you'll want to have a hose clamp on that. Without one, you run the risk of leaking wort/water or sucking air into the pump which can cause it to lose the prime and stop working. The brass QD's were not cheap, but not expensive either and they offer flexibility of changing hoses as needed with no fuss.

Click to expand...

How are your brass QD's connected to the tubing? Aren't they also barbed with clamps. Anyway, it's no big deal to use worm clamps or better yet the Oeticker type. Some kind of clamp is always required. The frightening possibility of losing prime no longer haunts me. Hasn't happened to me in ages.

Do you need to wear gloves when handling the hot brass QD's. That was a major issue when I was using brass fittings. The nylon GH ones were hugely cheaper and much less of a burn hazard. Those brass fittings get really, really hot sometimes.

There's just no way after the haul I got from my b-day that I can go out and spend another $85 on stuff for the pump. I'll need to scale to measure the grains for the new mill, and that already got a frosty reception.

Catt22 said:

How are your brass QD's connected to the tubing? Aren't they also barbed with clamps. Anyway, it's no big deal to use worm clamps or better yet the Oeticker type. Some kind of clamp is always required. The frightening possibility of losing prime no longer haunts me. Hasn't happened to me in ages.

Do you need to wear gloves when handling the hot brass QD's. That was a major issue when I was using brass fittings. The nylon GH ones were hugely cheaper and much less of a burn hazard. Those brass fittings get really, really hot sometimes.

Click to expand...

Yes, they are attached with hose clamps...but that is where they stay. No switching hoses back and forth, which is what I thought the OP meant. If you're touching one that is attached to the boil kettle, then yes they are hot (of course). I use an oven mit or rag. I was thinking about wrapping them with something, but it's not that big of an issue. I don't mind the nylon ones, and to each their own...I can only advocate what works for me and what seems to me to be a more durable solution. Maybe if these ones ever wear out, I'll give the nylon ones a try as long as they are food safe and heat tolerant to at least 215F.

Ok, the silicone tubing at US plastics is actually cheaper than the reinforced PVC.

BarnabyHooge said:

Ok, the silicone tubing at US plastics is actually cheaper than the reinforced PVC.

Click to expand...

Dunno, but a quick check at USP showed these:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/va...ry_name=7511&product_id=8415&variant_id=54040 (this link doesn't seem to work and I don't know why not)

Reinforced Clear PVC Tubing Polyester Braid - US Plastic Corporation

I guess it depends on which tubing you select. I'm using the above 5/8" ID braid reinforced pvc. The equivalent in non-reinforced 5/8" ID silicone looks to be about $1.52 higher per foot. That difference isn't a big deal for me as I don't use that much of it. I think I have a total of less than ten feet. I like that the PVC seems to be stiffer. It doesn't kink or collapse as easily from what I have observed. The braid reinforced silicone is dramatically more costly at $12.35 a foot. That's way out of range for me.

Silbrade® Braid Reinforced Silicone Tubing - US Plastic Corporation

Odd, I guess I was looking at the wrong braided hose. Thanks for all your help.

I'm a little late on the thread, but curious. Those nylon fittings at USP (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=22683&clickid=redirect) say they're rated up to 200° F. Have you tried recirculating boiling wort through to sanitize? It seems odd to use fittings rated to 200° and tubing rated to 450°. If you aren't recirculating to sterilize your pump and hoses, are you pumping iodophor or another sanitizer through before use?

Thanks for helping. I just got a birthday pump and it should be here this week. I'm trying to figure out how to get everything working.

MyMistake said:

I'm a little late on the thread, but curious. Those nylon fittings at USP (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=22683&clickid=redirect) say they're rated up to 200° F. Have you tried recirculating boiling wort through to sanitize? It seems odd to use fittings rated to 200° and tubing rated to 450°. If you aren't recirculating to sterilize your pump and hoses, are you pumping iodophor or another sanitizer through before use?

Thanks for helping. I just got a birthday pump and it should be here this week. I'm trying to figure out how to get everything working.

Click to expand...

The 200*F specification limit has to do with the strength of the fitting. Like most any material, it will weaken at very high temperatures. Most home brew systems never see more than a few psi of pressure, so there's nothing to be concerned about. I run boiling, or near boiling liquid through them regularly with no problems at all and I have been doing so for many years. I've boiled them just to see what would happen. It did no harm to the fittings whatsoever. I do circulate the near boiling wort to sanitize my pump, hoses and chiller.

I've been using the nylon fittings for about 7 years without problems. Never had one fail and have never stripped the threads on any of them. I like that they stay relatively cool even when exposed to boiling wort, unlike the brass and stainless fittings. I like that I don't have to use gloves to connect or disconnect them. They are not as blingy as the other options, but for me that is not important at all.

I'm convinced! Cheap and functional goes a long way.

MyMistake said:

I'm convinced! Cheap and functional goes a long way.

Click to expand...

The real beauty is that if for some reason you don't like the nylon fittings you won't be out much money.

I bought one of these tools recently and replaced all of my worm screw hose clamps. It was one of my better decisions:

http://www.clamptitetools.com/

If you get one, I suggest using the 0.032 type 304 SS wire and get the larger roll. You can also buy the wire from McMaster-Carr. The initial outlay is a little stiff, but IMO, worth every penny and it should last a life time.

One thing I really like about the nylon garden hose fittings is you can easily remove the gasket for cleaning. Buy some extra gaskets when you place your order. The gaskets are dirt cheap and it's good to have some extras on hand.

Let us know how it works out for you.

I never completely understood why people go to such lengths to make what amounts to a temporary installation of their March pumps. I understand that it is useful and cost-effective to use one pump for multiple roles, but that doesn't mean you have to keep disconnecting and reconnecting it.

If you can solder (it's really not as hard as some people make it out to be), just get some ordinary copper tubing and fittings, and make up a manifold/gang-valve for each side of the pump. Then you can permanently attach all your plumbing, and just give the appropriate ball valves a quarter turn when you want to change the pump's role in the setup. CIP becomes a snap, and you never have to worry about replacing soft lines, fittings, etc.

I guess one of the reasons people defer to using QDs, soft lines, etc. is the flexibility of being able to move things around and make design tweaks as you go. But really, once you have a stable design, it seems logical to go with a more permanent installation. Starting off with a gang-valve going to hose barbs and soft lines would be a good comprimise, allowing some flexibility but also eliminating the need to physically disconnect & reconnect hoses. Eventually, when you have your system tweaked to perfection, you can switch the soft lines over to hard lines as the soft lines "expire".

SixFoFalcon said:

I never completely understood why people go to such lengths to make what amounts to a temporary installation of their March pumps. I understand that it is useful and cost-effective to use one pump for multiple roles, but that doesn't mean you have to keep disconnecting and reconnecting it.

If you can solder (it's really not as hard as some people make it out to be), just get some ordinary copper tubing and fittings, and make up a manifold/gang-valve for each side of the pump. Then you can permanently attach all your plumbing, and just give the appropriate ball valves a quarter turn when you want to change the pump's role in the setup. CIP becomes a snap, and you never have to worry about replacing soft lines, fittings, etc.

I guess one of the reasons people defer to using QDs, soft lines, etc. is the flexibility of being able to move things around and make design tweaks as you go. But really, once you have a stable design, it seems logical to go with a more permanent installation. Starting off with a gang-valve going to hose barbs and soft lines would be a good comprimise, allowing some flexibility but also eliminating the need to physically disconnect & reconnect hoses. Eventually, when you have your system tweaked to perfection, you can switch the soft lines over to hard lines as the soft lines "expire".

Click to expand...

The main reason I am not hard plumbed is that my system is modular and not a one piece rig. I like this configuration for compact storage, mobility and versatility. The connecting and disconnecting is only required occasionally and it's not a big deal at all. My pump is mounted on a portable base and I like that I can move it where needed as when cleaning etc. I haven't had any hoses "expire" and I've been using the same hoses for a number of years. I suppose that eventually the hoses could possibly wear out or maybe become brittle, but it hasn't happened so far and I don't expect it will anytime soon. Hard plumbing just doesn't fit very well with my system or brewing style.

It sounds like your system is well suited to your needs, and I hope my comment didn't come off as a knock on that.

My post was more in reference to people who build elaborate brew sculptures or other types of permanent installations, and then plumb everything up with flexible hoses, barbs, worm clamps, plastic fittings, etc. even though there are few, if any moving parts. I even see this is the norm in many off-the-shelf systems, and it's just wierd how so many people just accept it as the standard way to do things. If I were to tackle a huge welding project, or conversely write a check for a couple thousand bucks and purchase one of those fancy brew sculptures, it would annoy me to see flex hoses and band clamps installed where they are not needed.

Then again, I've seen a lot of those stupid flex hoses installed on bathroom sinks that only need service every 30 years or so, but I guess it saves 2 minutes on the installation, and makes a few extra bucks in sales to Home Depot.

SixFoFalcon said:

It sounds like your system is well suited to your needs, and I hope my comment didn't come off as a knock on that.

My post was more in reference to people who build elaborate brew sculptures or other types of permanent installations, and then plumb everything up with flexible hoses, barbs, worm clamps, plastic fittings, etc. even though there are few, if any moving parts. I even see this is the norm in many off-the-shelf systems, and it's just wierd how so many people just accept it as the standard way to do things. If I were to tackle a huge welding project, or conversely write a check for a couple thousand bucks and purchase one of those fancy brew sculptures, it would annoy me to see flex hoses and band clamps installed where they are not needed.

Then again, I've seen a lot of those stupid flex hoses installed on bathroom sinks that only need service every 30 years or so, but I guess it saves 2 minutes on the installation, and makes a few extra bucks in sales to Home Depot.

Click to expand...

IMO, it is permissible to knock systems. These discussions are intended to be just that, tossing opinions around. Most of us have fairly thick and hairy skin. We can handle it.

I understand exactly what you are saying and in some ways I agree. I have no choice with my system. I must have flexible connections as nothing is in a fixed position. I only use four short hoses total. Only two are used during the mash. Three are required when chilling and the fourth is the hose I use for the final run to the fermenters. I prefer the most direct routing possible with the absolute minimum number of fittings in the circuit. I have an aversion to elaborate manifolds and diversion valves. Too much stuff to maintain and keep clean for me. I'm also not completely sold on the CIP concept. I usually need to do some scrubbing occasionally on the kettles and I would want to detach them from the hard plumbing to do it and that would be a PIA IMO. I don't like the looks of a lot of tubing flopping around either, hence my short and direct approach. I see a lot of commercial breweries using flexible hose when moving the beer. They are not all completely hard plumbed either and I think it's for much the same reason that I am not.

I like hard plumbing but can not use it as I have not yet finalized my system, and am constantly experimenting at that...

With that being said I use silicon hose with SS camlock because I dont half ass anything and feel this is the most sanitary, easy to clean, and least restrictive setup.

You should look into the proflodynamics fittings, they are surprisingly affordable for SS and if you dont use the hose barbs they are super free flowing...