Making the Jump to All Grain.

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TheMagicHatter

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Is this really as hard/difficult/problematic as a lot of these threads makes it out to be? I have yet to brew my first all grain batch, as I recently(yesterday) found the proper bulkhead for my 10gal cooler. I've brewed about 15 extract batches and have been reading up on all grain from day one. It seems like a pretty straightforward process so long as you follow the rules of your mash and sparge volumes to your grain bill weight.

If I didn't know any better, I'd think this process were a complete nightmare based off of a lot of the threads I'm reading. What gives? User error? Lack of preparation?

I'm planning on fly sparging to start, but may give batch sparging a go if I can't get the fly sparge under control.
 
AG brewing is definitely not as hard as it may appear to be but there are a lot more variables to take into account of and you should definitely read and prepare before embarking in this adventure to minimize having to post many of the same issues that are already on this site.

Things to think about: quality of crush, good calibrated thermometer, calibrated hydrometer, keeping track of your water volumes, temperature correcting your readings, aerating your wort properly, proper chilling and pitch temps and starting with proven reliable recipes.

If you are a stove top brewer then consider moving outdoors with a turkey fryer. You can also read up on BIAB brewing to start as a way to simplify the process a bit. As for fly or batch, IMO batch sparging is the way to go. It is easier and takes less time and I see no difference in efficiency at all.

Also consider brewing software, there are many to choose from. Some are free, some are not but they all help in keeping recipes, notes, calculations and making your brew day easier.
 
Things to think about: quality of crush, good calibrated thermometer, calibrated hydrometer, keeping track of your water volumes, temperature correcting your readings, aerating your wort properly, proper chilling and pitch temps and starting with proven reliable recipes.

And even if you are a few degrees off, or you don't have the perfect volume, don't worry, the beer is still gonna be very good. You will get better at those things anyway.
 
Once you have your equipment ready just pick a straightforward recipe and brew it. At least that's how I made the switch. As you already know, there are a lot of variables you can play with, but it helps to get that first batch under your belt so you have a baseline to use when you start tinkering. But that's the beauty of all grain. :)

As duboman mentioned, I also would recommend starting with batch sparging... keeps the process easier in the beginning and effeciency is very good. And another +1 on brewing software... I'm a Beersmith user and love it.

Good luck, and congrats on making the switch! Switching to all-grain was when I reclassified my homebrewing activities from "hobby" to "obsession". :mug:
 
All grain can be as difficult as you want it to be. With that given, start with mastering the basics as mentioned above and over time you'll start to embark on tweaking every detail of your process in order to improve. I would never go back to extract brewing simply because I enjoy the challenge and complexity that arrises from AG brewing. I say give it a whirl!
 
It is not really all that difficult. True, it is more time consuming, though not really all that much more time consuming than PM. Once you go to full boils the time takes longer anyway. Then you have the BIAB/Cooler debate which I will not get into. Temperature control of the mash is a little more important but is not as hard as it is made out to be and after a batch or two you will have your equipment dialed in.

I think people just consider it more of a rite of passage and put it on a pedistal as if it is the hardest thing ever. Some people even start with AG.
 
From my experience, it's not difficult. There are certainly more steps - which provide more opportunity for control, as well as error. I did ten extract brews, and switched to all grain. Futzing and fiddling is one of the things I enjoy about brewing, and all grain has provided the venue or that.

Besides giving a more fun experience, I think that AG has given me higher quality beer than with extract. Of course, it takes more time but it has been a worthwhile endeavor for me. Plus, over the long run it's cheaper, since grain (at least where I am) is way cheaper than extract.
 
If you are a stove top brewer then consider moving outdoors with a turkey fryer.

What's the reasoning behind this? Greater chance of boilovers at this point?

Once you have your equipment ready just pick a straightforward recipe and brew it. At least that's how I made the switch. As you already know, there are a lot of variables you can play with, but it helps to get that first batch under your belt so you have a baseline to use when you start tinkering. But that's the beauty of all grain. :)

As duboman mentioned, I also would recommend starting with batch sparging... keeps the process easier in the beginning and effeciency is very good. And another +1 on brewing software... I'm a Beersmith user and love it.

Good luck, and congrats on making the switch! Switching to all-grain was when I reclassified my homebrewing activities from "hobby" to "obsession". :mug:

Thanks for the input on the batch sparging. Definitely sounds like it will be the better way to go in starting out. Definitely a time saver!


Overall, I'm looking for greater control and quality of the beers that I produce. My extracts have turned out really well, though darker than what I've expected. Hopefully the AG brewing will give me the color I've been looking for.

Thanks for all the advice!
 
Try a few partial mashes just to get the hang of things. Thats what I did...and when I went full AG...it was like a walk in the park. Plus, you'll get a better idea of how your equipment operates and what types of efficiency you'll have when you go AG.
 
So I'm going to go ahead and put my foot in my mouth(it's something I'm accustomed to), now that I've started this thread.

I'm trying to formulate a grain bill for a black IPA and am having a hard time trying to figure out how the percentages of each ingredient will play out.

Am I correct in that the base malt should be no more than 70% of the bill for most, if not all grain bills, aside from SMaSH brews?
 
My reasoning on the stove top is for all grain you are doing full volume boils meaning 7-8+ gallons of wort and most stoves will not bring this volume to a rolling boil.

As for your interest in a black IpA I would highly suggest you start with a proven recipe to take one variable out of your first AG brew day:) the recipe wiki would be a good place to start looking for proven recipes. Keep it simple as you will have enough other things to worry and think about as you brew your first all grain batch!
 
+1 for keeping your recipe simple until you get the hang of your new processes and are comfortable with your setup.
 
it's not complicated if you are well organized. keeping records of just about everything from water temps, water volumes, ingredients, etc are a must. if you can do this and can duplicate your techniques each and everytime you brew, you will make good beer.

If you want to make it complicated, then worry about PH, water chemistry, and all the rest of the science behind brewing.

BIAB is about as close to extract you can get, IMO. just a longer process.
 
+1 on all the above. I went all grain on my 3rd batch. Got this OCD thing I guess.

The rule of KISS is your friend.

Get brewing software. I use Brewsmith and love it, but there are others.

Get John Palmer's book "How to brew"-and read it. Knowledge is a good thing, and will save you a lot of confusion and grief.

The process is pretty forgiving. Have fun.
 
Just did my first AG batch last week did a black IPA...here's the grain bill I used

10 lbs American 2 row
1lb crystal 40
.5 lb carafa III
.25 midnight wheat

Sparged the midnight and carafa
It's definitely black but have sample it yet still fermenting
 
I would start with batch sparging. The other advice I would give is to buy 5.2 from 5 Star Chemicals. It is good way to control your mash ph while you are figuring out everything else. Mash ph plays a big role in the outcome of your beer. You can test it and try to adjust it, but at this point 5.2 does it really easily.

Here is my BIPA recipe if you want all-grain example:
Recipe: Black IPA
Brewer: DoW Brewer
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 15.00 gal
Post Boil Volume: 14.50 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 14.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 13.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.067 SG
Estimated Color: 29.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 63.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
19.00 gal Silver Spring, MD Water 1 -
2.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 3 3.7 %
13 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 48.7 %
9 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 5 33.7 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 6 3.7 %
1 lbs Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 7 3.7 %
8.8 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 8 2.1 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 9 1.9 %
4.0 oz Pale Chocolate Malt (250.0 SRM) Grain 10 0.9 %
1.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - First Wort 60 Hop 11 31.4 IBUs
0.75 oz Zeus (CTZ) [14.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 m Hop 12 25.9 IBUs
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 14 -
1.00 oz Zeus [14.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 15 6.3 IBUs
2.00 oz Cascade [7.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
2.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 17 -
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 18 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 26 lbs 10.7 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 8.72 gal of water at 167.4 F 152.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (2.19gal, 7.75gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
As for fly or batch, IMO batch sparging is the way to go. It is easier and takes less time and I see no difference in efficiency at all.

Continuous sparging (a.k.a. "fly sparging") is more efficient than batch sparging if done correctly. Continuous sparging is akin to washing a paint roller out by running water down the face of the roller. Batch sparging is akin to washing a paint roller out by soaking it in a bucket of water. The grain in a properly continuously sparged bed will be less sweet than the grain in a batch sparged bed. The run-off will also be much clearer as the bed is set once and kept at a stable temperature.
 
TheMagicHatter said:
Am I correct in that the base malt should be no more than 70% of the bill for most, if not all grain bills, aside from SMaSH brews?

Short answer, No. This is far from correct. In fact, a 30% non-base malt brew is toward the extreme end of the spectrum I think. Keep in mind, there's a lot to choose from among base malts. They have the versatility of making brews up to 100% of the grist, since it's their enzyme conversion power that defines them as base malts. Think of them as the meat, and the roasted and crystal malts as the seasoning...
 
Simple recipies and good preperation for brew day are your best bet. Try to follow the temps and times the best you can. If you make a mistake, chalk it up and move on. It's not the end of the world. Make a list of the process you are going to follow, and check it off as you complete them. Also keeping good notes helped me alot. Relax and have fun its not hard at all.
 
I would start with batch sparging. The other advice I would give is to buy 5.2 from 5 Star Chemicals. It is good way to control your mash ph while you are figuring out everything else. Mash ph plays a big role in the outcome of your beer. You can test it and try to adjust it, but at this point 5.2 does it really easily.

I don't want to start a holy war in this thread. There are others that go into this product. But as a new brewer, try a batch or two without this stuff first. You likely won't need it. If you're curious, search for other threads about it.

All grain is really pretty simple. We all make it more complicated than it has to be to make good beer.

Your idea of KISS is perfect. Do that and you'll have a blast.
 
I don't want to start a holy war in this thread. There are others that go into this product. But as a new brewer, try a batch or two without this stuff first. You likely won't need it. If you're curious, search for other threads about it.

All grain is really pretty simple. We all make it more complicated than it has to be to make good beer.

Your idea of KISS is perfect. Do that and you'll have a blast.

i agree with this too. keep it simple until you master the process and then focus on the smaller details.
 
Expect to mess up somewhere along the way on your first batch. No two systems are identical, so your first few brew sessions will be to zero in on the quirks of yours as well as getting familiar with the process. You'll still likely make a great beer, but be prepared (like with your first extract brew session) that something will pop up that you didn't or couldn't have prepared for.

One thing I made sure to do for my first AG session was to make sure I had all day devoted to it. The process is much more involved than extract, so it's MUCH more time consuming. My brew day effectively doubled in length.

And as always RDWHAHB. :mug:
 
I believe my brew history fits well in this thread.

I went straight to All Grain brewing from nothing. Took me two weeks to get all of my equipment and assemble. First two attempts while doing a run though I realized I was missing small parts.

Finally the third time I brewed a Terrapin Hopsecutioner IPA clone recipe and boy did I luck out. Never calculated fly sparge water needed but looking back and recalculating my just ignorant guess was about spot on. Had to pour the beer directly from chilled wort nozzle into carboy with no hose. Had a blowout from the yeast strength. Kegged my first brew (didn't, haven't, and will never bottle) only 3 gallons out of 5 because of syphon issues.

Let me say when I drank my first one even with my mistakes, my unbiased buddy described it as enjoyable and I agreed. Thought I'd force it down and pour out some but it was great.

I then poured out my next two batches because of mash calc issue which I got no sugars and dropped the other (BIG cleanup). I am now on my 4th and 5th batch. This is what I have learned.

Calculate:
Mash Strike water temp and amount
Sparge water amount (generally about 169F)
Yeast cells needed (I use starters now)

Upgrades:
My cleaning knowledge (cleaner>sanitizer>brew)
False bottom
Yeast starter
Two corney kegs (I used a sanke first)

Really the thing to consider is a lot of information on the internet is subjective to the brewers liking and the other way to actually learn and retain is trial by fire so go ahead and make the leap.
 
Agreed on keeping it simple for your first go, the 5.2 was intended for very hard tap water applications. Worry about water chemistry way after you've got the other nuances of AG down. And if you are using a cooler, batch sparging is the way to go. Drain your first runnings. then just add however much sparge water you need to get your preboil volume/gravity.

My first AG was a Best Bitter. That way, if I under or over-shot the efficiency I could adjust the hops in the boil and come out with an ESB on the high side or a ordinary bitter on the low side.

But if you want to stick with the beer you mentioned, first call it a CDA ;) and then here's a recipe I have made a couple times and it's great, although there's a bunch of variability to this style.

For 5.5 gal @ 80% efficiency,

10 lb 2-row
1 lb Carafa II (sometimes the III can be hard to find, but the II is still huskless which is the important part)
1 lb C60
1 lb Munich light (10L)

Mash at 152F

Bitter @ 60 min with something neutral to ~50 IBU, I used Chinook.

1 oz each CTZ, Citra, Simcoe @ flameout
1 oz each CTZ, Citra, Simcoe dry hop

Ferment with Wyeast 1056, using an appropriate starter
 
Stay simple...but most of all...' Don't worry... ' follow the process...stay clean...eyeball your temps and you will be just fine.
 
Do, and the rest will come. Read up, pay attention, take notes. Jump in and dial it in. Your gonna stumble the first few times but you'll figure out your system. Just be patient. I've been doing all grain for about 4-5 months and its getting easier, more consistent. Don't be discouraged by a couple off batches. Evaluate and start again. Before you know it you'll be kicking ass.:mug:
 
I don't want to start a holy war in this thread. There are others that go into this product. But as a new brewer, try a batch or two without this stuff first. You likely won't need it. If you're curious, search for other threads about it.

All grain is really pretty simple. We all make it more complicated than it has to be to make good beer.

Your idea of KISS is perfect. Do that and you'll have a blast.

Here is why I suggest 5.2, the mash PH is very important to the outcome of your beer. Tannin extraction is heavily effected by the PH. If you sparge too hot, but you have 5.2 in your sparge water you won't get a lot of tannins because your PH is under control. I would buy the smallest container of 5.2 possible or better yet borrow some. After you have a few successful beers, buy some PH strips and test your water. You may never need it again. It is worth spending 30 cents a batch to ensure the correct PH (5.2 corrects both high and low PH) and not have tannin extraction. Most of this information is from Gordon Strong's Book Brewing Better Beer.

Having said that, you could probably never adjust your water and still get really good beer. :rockin:
 
Here is why I suggest 5.2, the mash PH is very important to the outcome of your beer. Tannin extraction is heavily effected by the PH. If you sparge too hot, but you have 5.2 in your sparge water you won't get a lot of tannins because your PH is under control. I would buy the smallest container of 5.2 possible or better yet borrow some. After you have a few successful beers, buy some PH strips and test your water. You may never need it again. It is worth spending 30 cents a batch to ensure the correct PH (5.2 corrects both high and low PH) and not have tannin extraction. Most of this information is from Gordon Strong's Book Brewing Better Beer.

Having said that, you could probably never adjust your water and still get really good beer. :rockin:

I hate to admit it but the stuff does work for me at least. My water is very hard and since i started using it i hit 83 % on my mash eff when i dont i hit mid 70's. That being said I would prefer to not us it but its a lot easer then then trying to fix my crappy water
 
Glynn said:
I hate to admit it but the stuff does work for me at least.

What did your pH meter say when not-using 5.2 vs using 5.2 on the same recipe? Were all other variables the same?
 
How much 5.2 do you add to a 5 gallon batch? Do you add it to the sparge water too?

Thanks.
 
NewkyBrown said:
How much 5.2 do you add to a 5 gallon batch? Do you add it to the sparge water too?

Thanks.

0 grams, or about 0 teaspoons.

It doesn't work and is a pretty well documented falsely-advertised gimmick. Do a search, it has been rehashed to death here.

I don't say that lightly -- the rest of their products are great. Unfortunately this one gives them a bad name.
 
My advice would be to allot yourself at least 6 - 8 hours of time for your first all grain batch. The first run will take you a decent amount of time, and you'll eventually learn to be more efficient and the time will get cut down but my usual all-grain day from start to finish is about 6 hrs.

As for messing with your water chemistry - I wouldn't bother for your first batch. Does your water taste fine out of the tap? If the answer is yes, then hold off on the water chemistry for a while. I would focus more on your temperatures, your volumes, and fermentation temp/yeast handling. All-grain is as simple or as complicated as you like, but essentially if you can make oatmeal than you can do all-grain. If you decide that you like all-grain I would really recommend purchasing a software program like BeerSmith. This program is really helpful with calculating water volumes / temperatures.

Have fun!
 
GotPushrods said:
0 grams, or about 0 teaspoons.

It doesn't work and is a pretty well documented falsely-advertised gimmick. Do a search, it has been rehashed to death here.

I don't say that lightly -- the rest of their products are great. Unfortunately this one gives them a bad name.

I don't agree with this assessment of 5.2. I think most people misunderstand what it does and what to expect. 5.2 is not magic. If your water a ph of 10, I suspect that 5.2 is not going to fix that. If you have water in the normal range, 5.2 is much easier to use than adjusting water using ph strips and adding lactic acid. A new all grain brewer should try to limit their variables and 5.2 will do that.
 
0 grams, or about 0 teaspoons.

It doesn't work and is a pretty well documented falsely-advertised gimmick. Do a search, it has been rehashed to death here.

I don't say that lightly -- the rest of their products are great. Unfortunately this one gives them a bad name.

It does work just not for everyone. I use it consistently and every time i use it i get an 83% mash eff when i don't i hit in the mid 70's. You need to make your own judgement as far as if it works for you. to answer your question i use 1 tbl in the mash and thats it
 
I don't agree with this assessment of 5.2. I think most people misunderstand what it does and what to expect. 5.2 is not magic. If your water a ph of 10, I suspect that 5.2 is not going to fix that. If you have water in the normal range, 5.2 is much easier to use than adjusting water using ph strips and adding lactic acid. A new all grain brewer should try to limit their variables and 5.2 will do that.

No, it's not magic. It's not even sound chemistry. The pK's of the sodium phosphates are not even close to target mash pH, meaning they have almost no buffering ability in that range.

Also, the pH of your water is irrelevant to it's buffering capacity. If you have a pH of 10, but almost 0 alkalinity, it will behave the same as water with a pH of 7 and no alkalinity.

A new brewer trying to limit their variables should not add one that makes the system more complex and simply does not work as advertised.


It does work just not for everyone. I use it consistently and every time i use it i get an 83% mash eff when i don't i hit in the mid 70's. You need to make your own judgement as far as if it works for you

I mean this with the utmost respect and in no way trying to be argumentative, but you should look for other places of inconsistency in your brewing process.

Efficiency has very little to do with mash pH. It plays a small role, but it overwhelmingly dominated by other factors. The 0.05 pH that it MIGHT be moving your mash (that's giving it a lot of credit) is not making your efficiency skyrocket.
 
Back to the point of the thread, just get your first all-grain under your belt. You will make a lot of mistakes, but your beer will likely turn out fine. Take good notes and come back to the forum for answers. Good luck!
 
I mean this with the utmost respect and in no way trying to be argumentative, but you should look for other places of inconsistency in your brewing process.

Efficiency has very little to do with mash pH. It plays a small role, but it overwhelmingly dominated by other factors. The 0.05 pH that it MIGHT be moving your mash (that's giving it a lot of credit) is not making your efficiency skyrocket.

No problem. I dont quite understand why it consistently works for me. I know my waters ph is 9. my town water supply comes from the fox river about 1/4 mile away. Last time i checked the water ca was 35 mg was 12 na was 68 so4 was 45 cl 112 and hco3 was 73. i've been crushing my own grains for almost a year so i know is not a crush factor and brew only apa's and ipa's
 
No problem. I dont quite understand why it consistently works for me. I know my waters ph is 9. my town water supply comes from the fox river about 1/4 mile away. Last time i checked the water ca was 35 mg was 12 na was 68 so4 was 45 cl 112 and hco3 was 73. i've been crushing my own grains for almost a year so i know is not a crush factor and brew only apa's and ipa's

Have you actually checked your pH after using 5.2?
 
Have you actually checked your pH after using 5.2?

no i have no way of checking what my ph is and im not really into the techenical side of brewing for me its more about the process but i would like to know why it seems to work or doesnt. I am willing to be educated but please use small words. Is acidulated malt a better option? denny
 
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