Session beer from 1st runnings?

This may be crazy, and I'm just spitballing here; hoping y'all can poke holes in this theory before I try it out. Here goes....

I'm questing for the holy grail (no, not the hot librarian stripper w/ heart of gold and classy public demeanor...the OTHER holy grail!): a session beer under 5% ABV that also has flavor and complexity. Here's my theory:

APA (for example)
80% Ger pils (or MO/Golden Promise)
15% Munich
5% C40

About 30 IBUs mostly from big hop additions after last 15 mins of boil.

Mash @ 158 45-60 min to get as much body as possible w/o restarting to Dextrine malt.

Use 1st runnings ONLY to avoid watering down the malt character.

Anyone tried this already? Any thoughts? HBT rocks at this sort of thing, so I look forward to great constructive criticism.

I just did this same thing with a British mild. I did the no sparge process. I was shooting for 1.038 og but overshot a little (1.042). I like no sparge on low gravity brews. My only other no sparge batch had a full body... Tastes pretty good.

I can't see how you are going to get a session beer from first runnings. I have never tried party gyle but first runnings (mine included) are BIG not small. You might try the middle or final third for a nice session beer. It would (theoretically) have the same malt balance- as the first runnings, just less of it which is what you want. The second and third runnings will probably be lighter too because apparently (from what I read), the colors leach faster.

Your first running gravity is dependent on your grain bill. If he uses a smaller amount of base malt his first runnings won't be too high. By using the 2nd/3rd runnings you get a thinner mouthfeel. I did a dark mild using the no-sparge technique and it produced a very nice 2.8% beer. I've been working on making all of my beers into sub 4% beers. Right now I'm working on my pale ale and an IPA.
The only suggestion I would make is to increase your specialty malts higher than you would for a "normal" abv version of your beer. It will help with mouthfeel and help keep flavor from being dull or muted. BYO did an article about session beers in the last year. I'll try and look up the article when I get a chance.

Don't mean to sound ignorant or condescending, but why would you want to have your beer less than 4% ABV? I'm relatively new to the world of beer and genuinely curious.

If you want a tasty brew with malt and hop character under 5%, I'd suggest you try the CYBI Uinta Wyld Pale Ale recipe. Great session beer. Recipe is here in HBT.

Cheers

lazycomet said:

Don't mean to sound ignorant or condescending, but why would you want to have your beer less than 4% ABV? I'm relatively new to the world of beer and genuinely curious.

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Because drinking should not always be about getting drunk
Seriosly though, with a session beer (<4%) you can drink it all day/night without getting/feeling wasted.

My last 4 brews were done with the no sparge method.
All of these are for the spring/summer so all were light and under 1.05 OG.
For a 5 gallon batch I use 8 gallons of water in the mash tun with about 10lbs of grain.
Hold temp for an hour (I continuously circulate) and then dump into the boil kettle. Depending on absorption I will usually get 6 - 6.5 gallons to boil.
This method can really cut your brew day time down with minimal loss of efficiency.

@kcpup--it's on my list to brew. Have you had it? I hear good things.

@mattd2--you hit it on the head. I am conditioning my Barleywine & have several 7-8% HBs in my fridge, but sometimes I want to drink a lot w/o getting hammered or getting fat(ter).

@mredge--thanks for including the numbers! Math isn't my strength, so your post just saved me a couple hours of frustration and doubt

mattd2 said:

Because drinking should not always be about getting drunk
Seriosly though, with a session beer (<4%) you can drink it all day/night without getting/feeling wasted.

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I've been messing around with doing a true ginger ale that will come in between 2-3%. Highly carbed, basically the soda with a little kick

Piratwolf, I adore Uinta Wyld.

I travel to SLC frequently for work. When I had my first Wyld, it blew my mind. So much flavor - both malt and hop - in a session beer.

I've been trying to clone that beer for over a year. There is a whole separate thread I started here on trying to clone it.

Anyway, CYBI cloned it in January. I was over the moon! I had gotten 80% there on my own, but had not nailed it.

I have the CYBI recipe fermenting as we speak. It will be about 3 weeks until its ready, so I can't tell you my thoughts on the CYBI recipe quite yet.

If you get the chance to try Wyld, do it!

Cheers

Hey I too am brewing(probably tomorrow) a no-sparge mild. From what I have read you need to increase the grains about 20-30%. I am increasing the grains only 10%. You need to increase grain amount as you will get a reduced efficiency because you will not have any sparge. I usually do a double sparge.
Grain absorption comes to about .5 qt/ lb or .2 gal/lb(same thing).
Mash tun size is important. This is where I am getting into trouble. I am going for 10 gallons of no-sparge mild with an MLT of 15.5 gal(keg). I need 16.5 gallons of water, plus ~18lbs grains. Too much so I will add water to my bk IF my SG is high. If it is not then I will brew about 9 gallons of Mild. We'll see what happens.

lazycomet said:

Don't mean to sound ignorant or condescending, but why would you want to have your beer less than 4% ABV? I'm relatively new to the world of beer and genuinely curious.

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For me its about being " master of the realm", gaining control over all aspects of the product and being sufficiently knowledgeable about how certain adjustments will affect the final product. ABV is simply one of those aspects. I calculate ABV as a purely acedemic exercise. I don't give a hoot how little/much alcohol is in the product. If the objective were to get as drunk as possible as cheaply as possible I would not be brewing.

william_shakes_beer said:

For me its about being " master of the realm", gaining control over all aspects of the product and being sufficiently knowledgeable about how certain adjustments will affect the final product. ABV is simply one of those aspects. I calculate ABV as a purely acedemic exercise. I don't give a hoot how little/much alcohol is in the product. If the objective were to get as drunk as possible as cheaply as possible I would not be brewing.

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I with you on that 100%. And maybe I gave the wrong impression in my previous post. I didn't start making beer because I simply wanted to get drunk. I'm truly interested in the process and the ability to tweak recipes and understand how the final product responds.

That being said, for those times when I just want to enjoy the taste of the beer I will usually only have one or two. But for those times when I want to drink all day, I expect to be a little tipsy at the end of it. Brewing a beer that doesn't achieve this seems a little ironic to me.

Maybe it's just me. Like I said before, I'm new to all of this so maybe I'll have a different opinion once I gain more experience. To each their own I guess.

lazycomet said:

I with you on that 100%. And maybe I gave the wrong impression in my previous post. I didn't start making beer because I simply wanted to get drunk. I'm truly interested in the process and the ability to tweak recipes and understand how the final product responds.

That being said, for those times when I just want to enjoy the taste of the beer I will usually only have one or two. But for those times when I want to drink all day, I expect to be a little tipsy at the end of it. Brewing a beer that doesn't achieve this seems a little ironic to me.

Maybe it's just me. Like I said before, I'm new to all of this so maybe I'll have a different opinion once I gain more experience. To each their own I guess.

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I think you came across with a genuine question, and I respect that. I think that, TBH, even a 4% ABV beer will get you tipsy after a 12-pack (unless you really pace yourself). To me the point is that during the week if I have two of my Imperial Reds @ 8%+ then I'm gonna feel it a bit. Or when I want a couple of beers when I'm brewing, I don't want to f*** up my beer. And finally, it's a challenge--making a really enjoyable low ABV beer requires some sophisticated brewing, and I wanna know I have that game when I need it later on.

Looks like many new brewers, including me, start out brewing the strongest, hoppiest beers they can... And then realize that good brewing can be subtle as well. That's the point I'm reaching now.

HangLoose said:

I can't see how you are going to get a session beer from first runnings. I have never tried party gyle but first runnings (mine included) are BIG not small. You might try the middle or final third for a nice session beer. It would (theoretically) have the same malt balance- as the first runnings, just less of it which is what you want. The second and third runnings will probably be lighter too because apparently (from what I read), the colors leach faster.

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THIS.

Unless you CAN'T have 2 fermenters, why not make a GOOD beer and use the weak runnings for your session beer?

this is pretty tried and true, otherwise use less grains and sparge it....

You can sparge effectively with 2 vessels a grain bag and a big strainer (colander).

Use this parti-gyle simulator enter your grain weight ect and see what your getting and go from there! The link is in the first paragraph and this does work and is close to what you will get
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator

cheezydemon3 said:

THIS.

Unless you CAN'T have 2 fermenters, why not make a GOOD beer and use the weak runnings for your session beer?

this is pretty tried and true, otherwise use less grains and sparge it....

You can sparge effectively with 2 vessels a grain bag and a big strainer (colander).

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Why is a session beer not "GOOD beer"?

What OP suggests is essentially the no sparge method, which is getting really popular for session beers.

if you get BYO the no sparge method is in the november 2011 vol.17 no.7 page 60

I'm in agreement on this one as far as the no sparge method goes. Acccording to Strong in his book, no sparge will give you the full flavor you are looking for. I don't necessarily think you need to mash that high to get enough body. I mash a fair amount at 152-154 and they have pretty decent body for beers at 5% without adding dextrine malts. Or you could start out at 158 then the next batch do 156 and the next at 154 just to see if there is a difference. Design your recipe around the no-sparge method and give it a shot. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

No sparging generally requires upping the grain bill by about 25-30%, I just did a version of Stone's pale ale no sparge on a buddie's new system and it turned out great.

@ReverseApaxheMaster, Edmanster, desertups, & rockfish42

Thanks for the input & support on this. Glad you all "get it"! I feel like this is do-able now and am excited to get a brew day soon to try it out!

Cheers!
--pirat

I think the other piece of good body in low ABV is picking a yeast with lower attenuation. What are you thinking about using? I tried to make some low ABV's and my yeast really did its work. The beer ended up thin. I should really try again.

I like the idea of getting the IBU's from the late hops - I'm going to try that.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Why is a session beer not "GOOD beer"?

What OP suggests is essentially the no sparge method, which is getting really popular for session beers.

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A session beer is good beer, a bigger beer is a GOOD beer. (bigger, notice the caps)

My problem (and it is mine alone) is just that you are leaving at least a good beer on the table.

I sparge back and forth between two 5 gallon containers with a large strainer that I move back and forth.

It is cheap and effective.

I just hate thinking that you have mashed, not to mention purchased and crushed the grain, and you are leaving a significant amount of perfectly good fermentables in the grains.

If you have the equipment (pump), try a re circulation mash in combination with the no-sparge. I have lost only about 5%-7% in efficiency on the last few that I have done this way. I will use this method on every beer that I brew from now on that has a OG under 1.05 due its simplicity. Good Luck!

You can do a good low gravity beer with normal methods too and that way leave a lot less sugar behind in the mash. I love the Brewing classic Styles Mild recipe and it is a 3.2% beer if I recall.

mjohnson said:

I think the other piece of good body in low ABV is picking a yeast with lower attenuation. What are you thinking about using?.

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good question. I can see that being an issue. Maybe 1968/Fuller's strain? I also have some Edinburgh yeast. Both seem to give a reasonable mouthfeel. Any suggestions?

Piratwolf said:

good question. I can see that being an issue. Maybe 1968/Fuller's strain? I also have some Edinburgh yeast. Both seem to give a reasonable mouthfeel. Any suggestions?

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Either is good. For English styles the Fullers strain is my favorite, bit that is a matter of personal taste. Edinburgh is also a great strain. Both accentuate the malt.

Mash high to create more dextrines.

Cheers

rockfish42 said:

No sparging generally requires upping the grain bill by about 25-30%, I just did a version of Stone's pale ale no sparge on a buddie's new system and it turned out great.

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I've done two session beers no-sparge style and if I upped the grain bill 25-30% they would no longer be session beers. This may be more applicable to a non session beer but I've gotten 75% both times on a 1.050 and a 1.040 brew.

I just finished brewing a mild with no sparge. As previously stated I raised my grain bill by 10%, expected 65% efficiency. I usually hit 75%. Well hit 76% with no sparge. I was stunned. I heated 12.5 gallons of water and added the grains. Then topped off with a little more hot water.
Collected 11 gallons, needed 12.5-13 gallons.
Squeezed the grain and collected another ~3/4 gallons.
Also added 1 gallon of water(155F) while the first runnings were draining. I just wanted ~13gallons for a boil so I could end with 11 gallons to fermentors. I tried to take the pre-boil SG and got 1.038. I didn't think I did it right since it was so high. Well it was right. FG 1.044, a little high for a mild.
Conclusion: no-sparge seems to work well for low gravity beers if it taste good. Time saving was not great but was much less effort.
Next time: no 10% grain increase and trust the pre-boil sg.

Ingredients

12.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 69.48 %
2.20 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 12.74 %
0.90 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 5.21 %
0.90 lb Chocolate Malt (200.0 SRM) Grain 5.21 %
0.55 lb Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 3.18 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.90 %
0.22 lb Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 1.27 %
0.75 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.90 %] (60 min) Hops 7.8 IBU
1 Pkgs English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [Cultured] Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.042 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.044 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.02 %
Bitterness: 7.8 IBU Calories: 187 cal/pint
Est Color: 24.8 SRM Color
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, No Mash Out Total Grain Weight: 17.27 lb
Single Infusion, Full Body,
60 min Mash In Add 50.00 qt of water at 163.7 F 158.0 F

balto charlie said:

Squeezed the grain and collected another ~3/4 gallons.
Also added 1 gallon of water(155F) while the first runnings were draining.

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While you may not have sparged in the textbook style. This IS sparging in my opinion. FWIW

HangLoose said:

While you may not have sparged in the textbook style. This IS sparging in my opinion. FWIW

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This may be the key. I have read that the Aussies have been doing this(squeezing) for awhile with good results. The added water to the end of the 1st running was just to boost the total BK gallons. I plan to keep this method up for the next mid gravity brews. Less hassle.

I want to be a jerk and sarcastically suggest that you add a little more water a little more slowly at the end of your mash and then say that you will then have the ultimate no sparge technique... But that isn't what this place is about and I appreciate that.

To each his own. Its silly really but I don't get no sparge. Sparging isn't a trouble for me at all and throwing all that hard earned mash away seems so wrong. All sarcasm aside I'm glad you like it and it works for you. I guess you are mashing in a bag?

HangLoose said:

I want to be a jerk and sarcastically suggest that you add a little more water a little more slowly at the end of your mash and then say that you will then have the ultimate no sparge technique... But that isn't what this place is about and I appreciate that.

To each his own. Its silly really but I don't get no sparge. Sparging isn't a trouble for me at all and throwing all that hard earned mash away seems so wrong. All sarcasm aside I'm glad you like it and it works for you. I guess you are mashing in a bag?

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No sparging isn't about saving time or trouble its about getting a better quality better tasting wort for low gravity beers, IMO at least. I'm still getting 75% efficiency as opposed to my 80% when I batch sparge on a regular gravity beer so I don't consider it a waste if the body and malt flavor are really better. Having said that I don't really have any low-gravity batch sparged beers to compare against the no sparge low-gravity beers I've done so it could all be in my head.

I am not saying I have the ultimate technique. All I am saying is that the sg numbers were big. I do not brag about numbers. I was surprised by the numbers. If the numbers are right then I am not throwing out any hard earned mash.
Perhaps it is 'mashing in a bag'.

stat said:

No sparging isn't about saving time or trouble its about getting a better quality better tasting wort for low gravity beers......

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That is why I was making this. Then I was impressed with the efficiency. Initially I was turned off by the low efficiency numbers some have posted. However, there were enough brewers that show high numbers with this method.

I agree, the myth with no sparge is that you will lose 10-25% efficiency but I have found this myth to be busted.
For me this saves about an hour and a lot of hassle while resulting in a superior product.
And I can deal with loosing 5% efficiency from a $8-$10 grain bill.

stat said:

No sparging isn't about saving time or trouble its about getting a better quality better tasting wort for low gravity beers, IMO at least. I'm still getting 75% efficiency as opposed to my 80% when I batch sparge on a regular gravity beer so I don't consider it a waste if the body and malt flavor are really better. Having said that I don't really have any low-gravity batch sparged beers to compare against the no sparge low-gravity beers I've done so it could all be in my head.

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Oh. That makes sense. I didn't know there was supposed to be much difference in the flavor or body with no sparge. I do agree that the endless quest for efficiency is silly for most of us, especially if it doesn't make better beer.

do you really get all of the little bits out with a bag? How do you get them out if you don't sparge?

I just bet that all of those fine little bits that filter out through sparging get through the bag.

No big deal?

cheezydemon3 said:

do you really get all of the little bits out with a bag? How do you get them out if you don't sparge?

I just bet that all of those fine little bits that filter out through sparging get through the bag.

No big deal?

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Man, cheesy, you seem pretty laser-focused on provoking a disagreement. Might be best to just accept that many people just don't care about efficiency or sparge methods or any of that, and that's cool.