Smack Pack - "Half" # of cells?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
The Bone2

The Bone2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
93
Reaction score
0
Location
Sacramento
I'm sure this has been covered, but on a current thread the comment was made that smack paks only have "half" the number of yeast cells for a 5 gallon primary?

Can you explain?

Is this true as well for the White Labs Yeast Vials?

Smack Pak = 1/2 yeast = reason to make Yeast Starter?
 
Yes. all those liquid strains are 'pitchable' quantities, but not 'optimal' which is why everyone will still recommend a starter.

In fact, I think they have more like 100billion cells, and for a 5 gallon ale that isn't wickedly high gravity, you want closer to 300-400 billion cells.

However if you're oxygenating your wort really well, and don't mind a lag phase while the yeast colony tripels in size, then you can direct pitch a vial or smack pack after it inflates.
 
common knowledge, yet it is not discussed on the yeast packages themselves, nor on the recipes that one receives from the brewing shops.
 
malkore said:
for a 5 gallon ale that isn't wickedly high gravity, you want closer to 300-400 billion cells.
Click to expand...

Where did you get that info? Most of the info I'd seen for ales has said less than that; Jamil says it's about 4 billion cells for each point of gravity, so a 1.050 beer would be ~200 billion cells in a wort that's just over 5 gal.

I'm always interested in new sources of info.
 
Scimmia said:
Yuri, that's definitely a good calculator, but it doesn't really address the issue at hand.
Click to expand...
Did you read the part that lists # of cells and # of vials or smack packs without a starter? That addresses it quite succinctly without all the reading.

Thanks for the amplifying info.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
Did you read the part that lists # of cells and # of vials or smack packs without a starter? That addresses it quite succinctly without all the reading.

Thanks for the amplifying info.
Click to expand...

Without the background info in the other articles, it kind of leaves you hanging, not knowing why. Of course, I tend to always ask why you do something, not just what you do. I'm a little weird that way.
 
Scimmia said:
Where did you get that info? Most of the info I'd seen for ales has said less than that; Jamil says it's about 4 billion cells for each point of gravity, so a 1.050 beer would be ~200 billion cells in a wort that's just over 5 gal.

I'm always interested in new sources of info.
Click to expand...

Nope, yer right, my numbers were off...posting from work and unable to lookup resources.

to fix my above numbers, its more like 50-100 billion viable cells in a smack pack. pitchable, but not optimal. so a starter both wakes up your yeast, and steps up the cell count to a level that's right for an 'average' ale gravity.
 
Also don't forget that the viability of liquid yeast is not great when it's not totally fresh. They can drop to 50% viability in a matter of a few months, or less if they're not handled correctly and kept at the proper temperature. Some people are lucky enough to live where they can get brand new vials/packs of yeast at their LHBS, but some of us aren't so lucky. It takes a lot for ALL the yeast in a vial/pack to be killed, which is why liquid yeast almost always manages to survive harsh shipments, and be usable after long periods of time, but at that point you REALLY need to be doing a starter.
 
According to Designing Great Beers commercial pitching rates are 10 million cells per ml or wort, or about 200 billion cells for a 5 gallon batch. This in a home brew setting means to reach commercial levels you would need an 11 liter (almost 3 gallons) starter for a 5 gallon batch!

Since that is completely unrealistic in a home brew setting, he suggests a good number to shoot for is somewhere around 10-20 billion cells as an absolute minimum.

A dry pack contains about 20 billion cells / gram but only have around a 10-20 percent viability, so 1 7g or 11g packet is lowish in viable yeast count, but sufficient for most needs.

Liquid yeast (Both WhiteLabs and WYeast) according to his counts contains between 1 and 5 billion cells, which isn't enough. He suggests a 1 quart starter should contain about 20 billion cells when finished, but I prefer 2 quarts to 4 quarts for my starters... more yeast is gooder. :)
 
JimC said:
According to Designing Great Beers commercial pitching rates are 10 million cells per ml or wort, or about 200 billion cells for a 5 gallon batch. This in a home brew setting means to reach commercial levels you would need an 11 liter (almost 3 gallons) starter for a 5 gallon batch!

Since that is completely unrealistic in a home brew setting, he suggests a good number to shoot for is somewhere around 10-20 billion cells as an absolute minimum.

A dry pack contains about 20 billion cells / gram but only have around a 10-20 percent viability, so 1 7g or 11g packet is lowish in viable yeast count, but sufficient for most needs.

Liquid yeast (Both WhiteLabs and WYeast) according to his counts contains between 1 and 5 billion cells, which isn't enough. He suggests a 1 quart starter should contain about 20 billion cells when finished, but I prefer 2 quarts to 4 quarts for my starters... more yeast is gooder. :)
Click to expand...

I think his info is out of date or something, according to the manufacturers (White Labs and Wyeast), their "pitchable" packaging contains ~100 billion cells, and a single 2 liter starter, without a stirplate, will get you up to ~200 billion. 1-5 billion cells seems extremely low, even the smaller pack from Wyeast is ~30 billion cells.

And on the dry yeast, with PROPER REHYDRATION, viability is supposed to be very good. Without proper rehydration, you will kill many of the cells, but 10-20% viability still sounds extremely low, I've heard Jamil say it it was closer to 50% without rehydration.

Edit: from danstar: http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/viability_storage.html

"Usually the viability will be greater than 85%."
 

Similar threads

Tony B
First batch
Replies
10
Views
669
Kornssj
Kornssj
Jack Arandir
New Wisdom for Yeast Starters
Replies
38
Views
2K
Yesfan
Yesfan
N
Yeast Cake Size
2
Replies
46
Views
2K
ninkwood
N
A
Wyeast Liquid Yeast Pitch Question
Replies
16
Views
2K
KeizerBrewr
KeizerBrewr
J
1st Mead (Finally!) and yeast issues?
Replies
4
Views
914
JP_BeerFan
J
Yakima 300

Latest posts

Back
Top