Electrical Question, Electricians if possible!!!

Williams 728
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Bobby_M said:
We're still talking about the load being handled by the cord though. If he's pulling 12 amps on the heater and 1-10amps on the aux stuff, 2 x 14/3 for all practical purposes should be fine unless he's using 50-100 footers. The assumption is that each of those 20 amp breakers are already serving something else. I'd bet that the receptacle he's plugging into is a 15 amp, not 20.

If he's going to run a dedicated 20 amp circuit just for this purpose, he might as well get a single 12/3 SJ with a 20amp plug (assuming the motor loads don't exceed 6 amps or so).
Click to expand...

No, we're NOT talking about the load on the cord. We're talking about the ampere rating on the breaker. The breaker will trip at 20 amps, so your cord ought to be able to handle that. If it can only handle 15 amps, and your rig for some reason goes screwy and starts pulling more than the cord can handle, but less than the breaker is going to trip at, you're gonna get a really hot cord and possibly a fire.

Edit: BTW I still think you should go with a couple 12-3 cord reels......
 
Sorry...:off:


Bernie I was just wondering if you are going to attend one the NFPA code change seminars this month if you haven't already? I am attending the one in Menomonee Falls March 27th . It would be cool to meet you if you do....
 
I forgot to mention that later I am adding steam-stored energy injection from a 23qt(5.75 gal) pressure canner (modified like the ones you can read about here on HBT).

My mash liquor has always been my brewery's "Achilles heal." I started my update project for this very reason, and knew from the start I wasn't going to go 240V. I knew it was going to be a challenge for the high end of 120V equipment, but it could be done with other help. Steam has been discussed on HBT and I like what I heard so my brewery is headed that way. I am planning on a couple of brews in my updated system, and then an addition of steam injection for complete MT control. I don't have a way of heating the canner from the brewery, so I will carry it to the brewery from the kitchen stove until I figure this one out later (garage stove in the works for decoction and large/smelly cooking). {For everyone reading-Don't use the kettle burner, per safety instructions!} This is ok because it will keep the energy stored for use when needed. I will use the steam for raising mash temperature through the wort drain manifold (SS screen centered in the bottom of the MT under a false bottom). Then, I can dump the rest of the steam into the HLT through the liquor drain manifold (same as MT only no false bottom). I don't have to fill the P-canner up very much to give me what I need, and the canner isn't that heavy to truck for this "my practice of brewing procedure."

That being said, I just wanted to know exactly what my electrical is and what my limitations are so I can mark everything accordingly with safety/warning tags. Also, so I don't forget and have to check if ever moved or questioned. I am pleased with how this is going to turn out I just have to ask a bunch of questions to truly understand it.
 
WiHophead- Don't have plans for that yet, but I should, gotta keep current, right??

WortMonger- Pleawe don't apologize for asking Q's. We would rather hash it out for a week and have you get it right than have you not ask anything and burn something down. And with your lack of confidence in this area, I would keep it as simple as you can- forget the relays, etc., unless you know someone that can check everything out for you when you're done. let us know how it turns out (pics would be great) and ask anything else you need.
 
Bernie Brewer said:
No, we're NOT talking about the load on the cord. We're talking about the ampere rating on the breaker. The breaker will trip at 20 amps, so your cord ought to be able to handle that. If it can only handle 15 amps, and your rig for some reason goes screwy and starts pulling more than the cord can handle, but less than the breaker is going to trip at, you're gonna get a really hot cord and possibly a fire.
Click to expand...

This is what I want to label the cord as so I always know. Also, any house I move into that has 15 amp breakers is getting reworked. I have only done cosmetic flipping and haven't had to do much more than buy it and make it look nice. I'm glad I am learning about it here first before having an electrician show me. I'm sure to run into these type problems later on in my job. Pre-knowledge helps me out a lot when trying to learn.

BTW I still think you should go with a couple 12-3 cord reels......
Click to expand...
Do you mean like this from HD,
325b0c64-e167-4418-a23a-8bb9d71c9f62_400.jpg

and just keep everything on it less than 15 amps?
 
WortMonger, If you are interested, kladue was nice enough to post pictures and explain how to build a steam injection manifold for a RIMS set up, where the injection happens out side the MLT in a manifold. It uses relatively few parts and make the injection process efficient, and less noisy. Thought you might be interested. It will be what I move to when I go to a larger system. S.
 
Jaybird said:
LMAO
Man you just made my day

JJ
Click to expand...

LOL, just too funny/cute to pass up. I have my very own (11 now), just don't understand how he got the blond hair,lol. That is a great picture. I'd have it B/W and done up right as a picture of quality assurance in my brewery, lol.

I called a beer grain weevil once and it just kinda stuck. The beer tasted alright :D (technically not a weevil, but a little shiny black bug of sorts).

Slnies said:
WortMonger, If you are interested, kladue was nice enough to post pictures and explain how to build a steam injection manifold for a RIMS set up, where the injection happens out side the MLT in a manifold. It uses relatively few parts and make the injection process efficient, and less noisy. Thought you might be interested. It will be what I move to when I go to a larger system. S.
Click to expand...

Oh, do link that please. :D Sweet

Edit: This what you are talking about? I looked at Kladue's stuff and couldn't find anything other than that very complex but very cool setup he uses.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4696&stc=1&d=1204916889
 
Bernie Brewer said:
No, we're NOT talking about the load on the cord. We're talking about the ampere rating on the breaker. The breaker will trip at 20 amps, so your cord ought to be able to handle that. If it can only handle 15 amps, and your rig for some reason goes screwy and starts pulling more than the cord can handle, but less than the breaker is going to trip at, you're gonna get a really hot cord and possibly a fire.

Edit: BTW I still think you should go with a couple 12-3 cord reels......
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying and it's the correct way to do it. 12/3 is the best bet for worst case scenario which is what electrical codes are meant to protect against.

In real world, 99% odds situations, a 14/3 cord carrying 18-19amps will probably not overheat and catch fire unless it's running all day and covered with something or rolled up. It's certainly not worth arguing about though because a 12/3 cord isn't that much more expensive for piece of mind. I still feel like the hardest part is going to be finding an accessible circuit that isn't already using a significant amount of that 20 amps.
 
Nope, this one outlet in the garage is on its own 20 amp circuit. I checked it last night by flipping one of the two breakers going to the garage. It was the same one the golf cart charger is hooked up to. I will just unplug the charger and plug in my brewery (dedicated element and HLT stirrer) power cord. Then, plug in my second brewery (dedicated pumps and mash mixer) power cord into another duplex outlet by itself.
 
If you really want to go 120v, I would put a new 20A breaker in your breaker panel, then run 12 guage Romex to a dedicated recepticle. You may only be running about 13 or so amps, but what you really need to look at is the in-rush current for the equipment you are using. For instance, lets say a motor is rated for 3A, when you first start this motor, it will probably draw close to 5A for it's initial start up.

As requested worst case scenario using an extention cord to a standard 15A receptacle:

- You have everything running with the exception of, say, a pump. You decide to start the pump and the in-rush current of the pump motor causes the total current to spike over 15A. The breaker in your panel trips and everything shuts off.

Even Worse:

- Your whole basement/garage/kitchen may be on the same breaker you are plugging your brew equipment into. Thus less available current for you to use, causing the breaker to trip.

My suggestion:

- Install a dedicated 20A breaker in your panel (GFCI Recommended for working around liquids, but can cost you some $$$).
- Run some 12 Guage romex cable to a decicated 20A GCFI receptical.
- Get you a fat extention cord like previously suggested.
- Plug in, and brew away.
 
Aaron1983 said:
If you really want to go 120v, I would put a new 20A breaker in your breaker panel, then run 12 guage Romex to a dedicated recepticle. You may only be running about 13 or so amps, but what you really need to look at is the in-rush current for the equipment you are using. For instance, lets say a motor is rated for 3A, when you first start this motor, it will probably draw close to 5A for it's initial start up.

As requested worst case scenario using an extention cord to a standard 15A receptacle:

- You have everything running with the exception of, say, a pump. You decide to start the pump and the in-rush current of the pump motor causes the total current to spike over 15A. The breaker in your panel trips and everything shuts off.

Even Worse:

- Your whole basement/garage/kitchen may be on the same breaker you are plugging your brew equipment into. Thus less available current for you to use, causing the breaker to trip.

My suggestion:

- Install a dedicated 20A breaker in your panel (GFCI Recommended for working around liquids, but can cost you some $$$).
- Run some 12 Guage romex cable to a decicated 20A GCFI receptical.
- Get you a fat extention cord like previously suggested.
- Plug in, and brew away.
Click to expand...
I don't mean to be a prick, but if you read the rest of the thread, you would have seen that this subject has been covered.
 
WortMonger said:
I also was thinking about the cord winder :D.
Click to expand...

Winders are great, but do yourself a favor and DO NOT run high current draws on a wound cord. The excess heat build up will fry your cord and could start a fire.


Bernie Brewer said:
And I don't know why the one you pictured says it's only good for 15 amps. 12 gauge wire is good for 20 :confused:
Click to expand...

Its not just the raw wire ampacity, but the whole assembly. The length, stranded vs. solid, crimp vs. screw, and ultimately the plugs installed on each end. Can't rate a cable 20A when it has 5-15 connectors on each end.

That said, I can't recall seeing an extension cord with 5-20 connectors that wasn't 10 gauge.

One more note: Even if you're just drawing 5-7A, your heating element will be more efficient (i.e. faster) on a 10gauge wire than a 12gauge cord. Get the largest gauge cord you can afford, you won't regret it.
 
slnies said:
I don't mean to be a prick, but if you read the rest of the thread, you would have seen that this subject has been covered.
Click to expand...

My apologies then, I read the OP, and a few replies. I guess i'll read more thoroughly from now on before I suggest something that has been suggested...:cross:
 
WortMonger said:
Ohhh, Ohhh I found this and wonder about triming the blades down and add a longer shaft to stir the HLT water with it.
http://www.myprogramstore.com/cgi-bin/apf4/gdeals.cgi?Operation=ItemLookup&ItemId=B0000BYDUC
Only .52A!!!!! Now I can add a small light to the top as well if this works for stirring.
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I'm not saying it won't work, but put me down as betting against it. Moving fluids takes a good deal of power. And inductive electric motors need to spin at a certain speed to keep from burning up. My bet is that the 0.52A isn't enough power to turn the blades fast enough (in water) to prevent the windings from cooking themselves.
 
pldoolittle said:
I'm not saying it won't work, but put me down as betting against it. Moving fluids takes a good deal of power. And inductive electric motors need to spin at a certain speed to keep from burning up. My bet is that the 0.52A isn't enough power to turn the blades fast enough (in water) to prevent the windings from cooking themselves.
Click to expand...
Gotcha, that is what I was thinking too. All my projects start off with worse case scenario and I was trying to rule out the fan as a week candidate. I think you are exactly right. I have since came up with another proposed idea that came to me last night after thinking more on my wood-gas burner idea. You guys think this would work as a stirrer?
Thermal_Water_Circulator.GIF

No power needed, lol. Whatcha think? I know this won't move water very fast, but I really am just looking for any help for the element to not have much of a thermal barrier.
 
Just saw your project.
You certainly need a total Full Load Current total to determine the proper ampacity for your circuit(s). (I would use more than one, the heater worries me.) Also, motors startup current is briefly much much higher than the running full load current draw so I would watch running evreything at one time.
By the way a 5500 watt element rated for 240 volts is 22.9 amps. The same 5500 watt element using 120 volts will be double the ampacity draw, not less. Watts is watts. (Unless you can actually re-configure the elements series or parallel.)
I like your switched/disconnects. Why not put a main disconnect on your entire system too?
I for sure would have a GFCI installed at point E so you are connecting into it, hence protecting the project/YOU. Then you can plug into any outlet at any locations and you're still protected. So long as it's rated for at least 20 amps.
And stay close to outlets using the proper cords. Added distance increases voltage drop and that would only add to your problems. An SO cord is good to make your own extenstion cords with, since most normal ones are rated too low for your project. Watch out for that.
Any chance for spill over going into any outlet? If so, I'd use weatherproff while in use covers, even though they don't look nice.
Not knowing all the caculations, this is the best I can do real quick like.
 
WeissBeerGal said:
By the way a 5500 watt element rated for 240 volts is 22.9 amps. The same 5500 watt element using 120 volts will be double the ampacity draw, not less. Watts is watts. (Unless you can actually re-configure the elements series or parallel.)
Click to expand...


That isn't how it works with a fixed resistive load like a heater. The heater has a wattage rating at a given voltage which in this case is 5500 watts at 240Volts so if you reduce the voltage by half you effectively lower the wattage to 25% or 1375 watts. The only way the wattage would double if you reduce the voltage by 50% would be to reduce the elements resistance by 4X and since it is a fixed resistance that isn't possible.
 
WeissBeerGal said:
Just saw your project.
You certainly need a total Full Load Current total to determine the proper ampacity for your circuit(s). (I would use more than one, the heater worries me.) Also, motors startup current is briefly much much higher than the running full load current draw so I would watch running evreything at one time.
By the way a 5500 watt element rated for 240 volts is 22.9 amps. The same 5500 watt element using 120 volts will be double the ampacity draw, not less. Watts is watts. (Unless you can actually re-configure the elements series or parallel.)
I like your switched/disconnects. Why not put a main disconnect on your entire system too?
I for sure would have a GFCI installed at point E so you are connecting into it, hence protecting the project/YOU. Then you can plug into any outlet at any locations and you're still protected. So long as it's rated for at least 20 amps.
And stay close to outlets using the proper cords. Added distance increases voltage drop and that would only add to your problems. An SO cord is good to make your own extenstion cords with, since most normal ones are rated too low for your project. Watch out for that.
Any chance for spill over going into any outlet? If so, I'd use weatherproff while in use covers, even though they don't look nice.
Not knowing all the caculations, this is the best I can do real quick like.
Click to expand...
I am going to have to send this out for the jury to look at you make a good point. I am going to have to look at my books but for saftey sake and the sake of OHMS law your point is very valid. There is a factor that we must consider and that is this is a 100% resitive load But for the sake of OHMS law even at 50% watts and 50% volts your still going to be @ 22+ amps your very correct. Damn it its time to hit the books!!!! $#!^ and all I wanted to do is have a drink and read some HBT.
JJ
 
Jaybird said:
I am going to have to send this out for the jury to look at you make a good point. I am going to have to look at my books but for saftey sake and the sake of OHMS law your point is very valid. There is a factor that we must consider and that is this is a 100% resitive load But for the sake of OHMS law even at 50% watts and 50% volts your still going to be @ 22+ amps your very correct. Damn it its time to hit the books!!!! $#!^ and all I wanted to do is have a drink and read some HBT.
JJ
Click to expand...
No, Do the math. 5500watts at 240Volts gives you a resistance of 10.4OHMs. The resistance of the element does not change. The wattage will when the voltage does. The element is rated 5500watts @ 240Volts for this reason. Wihophead has it right.
 
1248 watts at 120volts is my quick estiment of the element. I am sure I am off some, but this number should be close. I don't have a calculator close. So this is my best in my head calc on the fly. I think it will be some what higher. Anyway. S
 
Slnies and Hophead have it right. Sorry WiessBeerGal, you got it wrong on this one..........

Which is no big deal. I'm wrong more often than right. Ask anybody.
 
slnies said:
No, Do the math. 5500watts at 240Volts gives you a resistance of 10.4OHMs. The resistance of the element does not change. The wattage will when the voltage does. The element is rated 5500watts @ 240Volts for this reason. Wihophead has it right.
Click to expand...
so...the jury has deliberated and this is what I can tell you is that this is aresonant circuit (such as normal household 120 VAC)the phase angle is 0 and impedance=resistance in this case its 240/22.9=10.48 and as Slnies pointed out the resistance will not change as we all know it wont the answer is volts over ohms= amps 120/10.48= 11.45 amps [whipes the sweat from his brow] glad we got that settled:D can I have a drink now???:drunk:
JJ
 
Jaybird said:
so...the jury has deliberated and this is what I can tell you is that this is aresonant circuit (such as normal household 120 VAC)the phase angle is 0 and impedance=resistance in this case its 240/22.9=10.48 and as Slnies pointed out the resistance will not change as we all know it wont the answer is volts over ohms= amps 120/10.48= 11.45 amps [whipes the sweat from his brow] glad we got that settled:D can I have a drink now???:drunk:
JJ
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Why not? I am. Join me.

*pulls pint from kegerator and hands it to Jaybird*

Drink up!
 
Bernie Brewer said:
Why not? I am. Join me.

*pulls pint from kegerator and hands it to Jaybird*

Drink up!
Click to expand...
yummm thats nice it tasts like real beer did you brew that yourself?? [wipes the foam from his stash] LOL:mug:
JJ
 

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