Grodziskie - Polish smoked wheat beer

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Edcculus

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I'm starting this thread in response to the beer referenced in this video made by Polish brewers in response to our video.

In the video, someone mentions a beer called "Grodziskie". It is a classic Polish beer that has gone by the wayside that a lot of local homebrewers are bringing back (sound familiar :))

Kopyr, the member who posted the video gave us some insight on this beer, and a basic recipe:

Unfortunatelly not. :(

It is special glass for Grodziskie. Grodziskie was called polish champagne.
Here you have export label in English.

About recipe, the hardest thing is that Grodziskie was made of 100% smoked (oak) wheat malt. And in Europe there is no malting company, which produced this kind of malt. So many of us use wheat malt + smoked barley malt, but some of us smoke wheat malt on their own.
The recipe I used is:
smoked barley malt 1,5kg
wheat malt 1kg
aroma hops pellets 50g (it was Lubelski, similar to Saaz)
yeast like to koelsch, e.g. S-33

Mash:
5 litre water temp. 40C - add malts
30min in 37C
add 2l hot (boiling) water
20min in 50C
add 3l hot water and heat
30min in 70C

Boiling:
90min
30g hops at the bginning
20g hops after 20 minutes.

EDIT:And the most important it was bottle conditioned.

Some US translations:

smoked barley malt - 3.3lb
wheat malt 1kg - 2.2lb
aroma hops pellets 1.75oz - I've never seen Lubelski for sale here, so lets just say Saaz
yeast like to koelsch, e.g. S-33

Mash:
1.3 gallons water temp. 40C - add malts
30min in 98F

add .5 gallon hot (boiling) water
20min in 122F

add .75 gallons hot water and heat
30min in 158F

A few questions (if Kopyr hopefully joins us here)

1- What size batch? This doesn't look like a typical 5 gallon (~18liter) batch

2- What are the original and final gravities? If you don't typically use specific gravity, we can translate from Plato or Balling

3 - you say Kolsch yeast. What temperature do you ferment at? Do you semi lager this beer like you would a Kolsch?

4 - why the stepped mash? Looks like you have an acid rest, a protein rest and the saccharification rest. Could you get away with a single infusion mash? I'm not sure what malts are available to you in Poland, but most malts here in the US are highly modified and don't really need protein rests.

Hopefully we can get specifics so some of us can give this beer a shot!
 
I found this - http://www.blindbatbrewery.com/Brewhouse/files/3ada3957236797ec4a073dc133cd70a7-43.php

Someone on this side of the pond is already trying it.

I already contacted Paul at Blind Bat. He made a batch and wasn't happy with the smoke and intends on getting back to it later in the year (check his web site and you can see he is expanding his brewery from a SABCO 10gal. to a 3bbl system).

His smoked wit was inspired by the Polish Grodziskie but isn't meant to be a clone (it uses mesquite rather than oak).

BTW, very nice guy. Contact him through his web site.
 
A few questions (if Kopyr hopefully joins us here)

1- What size batch? This doesn't look like a typical 5 gallon (~18liter) batch

2- What are the original and final gravities? If you don't typically use specific gravity, we can translate from Plato or Balling

About 20 liters, so quite familiar to 5 gallons. It has 8 blg, and finish about 2blg, it has only ~2-3% ABV.

3 - you say Kolsch yeast. What temperature do you ferment at? Do you semi lager this beer like you would a Kolsch?

In Grodzisk, they had their own strain. Probably this strain is in laboratory in one of polish university. The reason why we use koelsch yeast is, that you can't use typycial weizen yeast, because cloves and banana flavour are not present in Grodziskie. So you have to used topfermenting yeast, but quite neutral.

4 - why the stepped mash? Looks like you have an acid rest, a protein rest and the saccharification rest. Could you get away with a single infusion mash? I'm not sure what malts are available to you in Poland, but most malts here in the US are highly modified and don't really need protein rests.

You're right. Probably there is not necessery to make all the rests, but that mashing procedure based on brewing instrucion from brewery in Grodzisk.

There is one thing, that I've forgotten. Grodziskie was clarified with finnings.
 
Ah, low gravity that makes sense now.

So despite being a wheat based beer, it is clear? A protein rest might help in this case, along with gelatin.


Thanks so much Kopyr! This is all very exciting.
 
Ah, low gravity that makes sense now.

So despite being a wheat based beer, it is clear? A protein rest might help in this case, along with gelatin.


Thanks so much Kopyr! This is all very exciting.

Yes it should be clear, no cold haze. Although this is bottle conditioned beer, you should pour it carefully without yeast sediment.
 
Randy Mosher has a recipe in his book "Radical Brewing" for a Gratzer (german name for Grodziskie).
He has two versions for this beer, one "Real Version" and one "Cheaters Version". Here is the former:

1.057 OG
5-5.7% ABV
44 IBU
Yeast: German Ale (Kolsch)

9.0 lb smoked malted wheat (you can smoke it yourself on a grill, with oak)
0.75 lb smoked malted wheat, toasted
1.0 lb rice hulls

Mash: 122*F, 148*F, mash out 175*F.

1.0 oz. Saaz 60 min
2.0 oz. Saaz 20 min
3.0 oz. Saaz 5 min
 
Randy Mosher has a recipe in his book "Radical Brewing" for a Gratzer (german name for Grodziskie).
He has two versions for this beer, one "Real Version" and one "Cheaters Version". Here is the former:

1.057 OG
5-5.7% ABV
44 IBU
Yeast: German Ale (Kolsch)

9.0 lb smoked malted wheat (you can smoke it yourself on a grill, with oak)
0.75 lb smoked malted wheat, toasted
1.0 lb rice hulls

Mash: 122*F, 148*F, mash out 175*F.

1.0 oz. Saaz 60 min
2.0 oz. Saaz 20 min
3.0 oz. Saaz 5 min

Wow, thanks for that. I think I will use the original Polish name. I hate how the Germans overran so many countries, pilfered the breweries, and changed the names.
 
4 - why the stepped mash? Looks like you have an acid rest, a protein rest and the saccharification rest. Could you get away with a single infusion mash? I'm not sure what malts are available to you in Poland, but most malts here in the US are highly modified and don't really need protein rests.

I think I saw some empty Weyermann sacks in the background in the video.
That is at least one available high quality malt, then.

Do you use the Smoked malt by Weyermann ?
I remember reading that different smoking wood gives very different flavor.
The Bamberg smoked malt (that's the home of Weyermann and Schlenkerla) has a sausage-like flavor in my opinion, and I don't like it in large amount.
Just my opinion...
 
I think the only commercially available smoked malts are Beachwood (traditional rauchmalt), and Cherry wood. I think Weyermann makes the Rauchmalt. Don't remember who makes the Cherry wood. Briess maybe? I'm guessing this recipe employs traditional Rauch barley malt and some regular wheat malt. If you have the ability to smoke your own malt, I guess I'd go for 100% oak smoked wheat malt. I need to find a friend with a smoker...
 
I think the only commercially available smoked malts are Beachwood (traditional rauchmalt), and Cherry wood. I think Weyermann makes the Rauchmalt. Don't remember who makes the Cherry wood. Briess maybe? I'm guessing this recipe employs traditional Rauch barley malt and some regular wheat malt. If you have the ability to smoke your own malt, I guess I'd go for 100% oak smoked wheat malt. I need to find a friend with a smoker...

Briess does makes the cherrywood smoked barley malt (see my recipes for a smoke I made with it).
 
hi all just wondering ive a friend moving to poland for a few months and was wondering if anybody knew if there is anything like homebrew shops over there? he is big into it.

any help you can give would be great
 
I'm going to try brewing this up. I smoked 10 pounds of malted wheat with white oak for 90-100 minutes this past weekend. It smells awesome! The fire got a little hot towards the end and the temp went all the way to 180F.

Got a little browning and some burnt grains but nothing too bad. I'm planning on roasting a pound or so in the oven on brewday and then mashing all 10 pounds. Don't have any Saaz or Lubin on hand, so I'm thinking of using Magnum and Hallertau.
 
I'm going to try brewing this up. I smoked 10 pounds of malted wheat with white oak for 90-100 minutes this past weekend. It smells awesome! The fire got a little hot towards the end and the temp went all the way to 180F.

Got a little browning and some burnt grains but nothing too bad. I'm planning on roasting a pound or so in the oven on brewday and then mashing all 10 pounds. Don't have any Saaz or Lubin on hand, so I'm thinking of using Magnum and Hallertau.

Personally I don't see a reason to toast grains in the oven. Your wheat malt is already kilned, so smoking it gets you something of a second kiln, which as you saw causes some browning -- or roasting -- of the grain. I could only see a reason to toast the grains further if you are skilled enough with the smoker to prevent any additional browning in that step.

I know Mosher advocates toasting some of the grain in the over, but like I said, for those of us who are amatuers at smoking you're going to end up adding that roast flavor from the heat in the smoker...
 
Sorry for bumping this thread years later, but it seems more appropriate than starting a new thread. Apparently, Weyermann is now producing an oak-smoked wheat malt that they specify as being used for making Grodziskie. The specification sheet specifies to use it at up to 80% of the total grist. I was under the impression that Grodziskie was typically 100% smoked wheat malt. Has anyone here made it with Weyermann's malt? Would I be better off splitting the grist with 40-50% non-smoked wheat malt?
 
Hi
I've never used this malt but from the other polish homebrewers I heared that even with 100% of this malt in total grist, beer turned out to be not sufficiently smoked in aroma and taste.
 
Awesome link, thanks kopyr! Going to chime in here again to update on my first attempt. It was my first time using wheat and also one of my earlier brews and ended up getting dumped. To start with, I didn't grind the wheat and so my efficiency ended up in the 20-40% range I believe. I had used Moshers recipe, where he specifies a much higher than usual OG, so this was not the worst thing that could have happened to my beer. But I did end up aging it for an extended time during which it managed to get infected. Ended up dumping the batch without even trying it :(

But I plan on making another attempt this summer. Have a bunch of white oak trees in MI and am a little bit more practiced in using the smoker now, and also in grinding my grains and using proper sanitation ;) Will definitely keep this thread updated with my attempts.
 
I made a great Gratzer with white wheat malt I smoked at home with white oak for two hours. Hopped the hell out of it using the same schedule and amount of Saaz as my Bo pils recipe. Used Kolsch yeast fermented cool and at 1 month it was a monster of a beer considering it was 4%abv.

Smelled like an oak fire and had a flavor of a nice smoked Gouda with a clean refreshing finish. Time blended and mellowed the flavors, but at 8 months this small beer still had personality.

Turned some heads at competitions from the score sheets. Got a 38 from a professional brewer at one, but didn't place. Specialty beer Is a tough category and this beer just messes with an preconceived notions. I highly recommend smoking your own and brewing it up for early fall.
 
So who's used the Weyermann smoked malt so far? I just ordered ingredients and will be making in in a batch or two. I went with Saaz hops. I figure I'll give this Weyermann malt a try this first time and then I'll considering smoking my own if it's not smokey enough
 
I got my 13lbs of the smoked wheat malt. it smells amazingly smokey through the bag even. I'm going to bring a few ounces to work with me to let the other brewers get a whiff of the stuff. I'm really looking forward to brewing this beer. I can't wait to get it bottled up and ready to go. Luckily I have a ton of empty grolsh bottles and other heavy glass ready for a beer like this. According to Kristen England in Brewing with Wheat it should be carbed up to almost 4 volumes. I will do my best to remember to pull like a quart or so of wort and freeze it for priming when I bottle. I always tend to forget that sort of thing at the last minute since I don't do it all the time.
 
I don't think it is a coincidence that Weyermann is now selling oak smoked wheat malt. That makes the style a lot easier to brew and you will see more and more of them.

Those of us that purpose built a smoker to smoke our own malt will have to hope that the rustic-ness and uniqueness of our home smoked produces a better beer, justifying the effort, or go the easy route.
 
I know in a recent interview Lauren Salazar at New Belgium said she wants to start putting out a gratzer so I guess we'll see how these commercial versions stack up.
 
I know about it from polish sources... So, if you want to read in polish, no problem :D I can give you a proper link to this information. It was information given by Polish Homebrewers Association.

Altough, this article does not mention about it, I've read that it's author is responsible for making a description of Grodziskie in BJCP - so somewhat it's connected with all case.
 
good luck with it [Grodziskie]!
(Moved this quote to a more appropriate thread.)

Had a good Grodziskie brew day. Used 100% Weyermann Oak Smoked Wheat malt. It was only my second BIAB. Still experimenting mashing with induction. (Had only used induction for boil before.) Dough-in at 105°, held for 30 min and then did a slow 45 minute ramp up to 155°. Held that for another 45 minutes. Pour over sparge to hit volume. Little over a two hour boil bittered with Tettnanger to 22 IBU's. Efficiency was a little better than planned, so hit 1.034 OG. Pitched with Pacman yeast around 9:00pm. Fast start with a healthy looking fermentation going this morning.

Probably the biggest style mistake I made was not doing anything with water chemistry. Also a little worried about clarity. I used Supper Moss, but it went into the fermenter cloudy (like other wheat beers.) Hoping that will clear up in the finished beer.

GrogNerd, you pop up in a lot of these Grodziskie threads. What do you (or anyone else) think are my chances of this turning out well? Any suggestions for the rest of the process? I'm a German, married to a Polack. Not that she knows the style, but I'd still like to get it right.
 
It's an easy style, a SMaSH, so it's hard to screw up. Nothing really special about brewing this as opposed to any other beer, other than an unusual base malt.

If you don't normally mess with your water, I wouldn't worry about it here. If you do, I still wouldn't worry :mug:
 
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