Attention All Extract Brewers - Harsh Bitterness and Aftertaste

I too have had some of my extract batches turn out like this. I was thinking of trying distilled water for my next batch. For anyone who uses distilled whater, what is the best way to get a bulk of it and does it cost much per batch. Do you just go to the supermarket and buy 7 one gallon jugs.

Hova said:

I too have had some of my extract batches turn out like this. I was thinking of trying distilled water for my next batch. For anyone who uses distilled whater, what is the best way to get a bulk of it and does it cost much per batch. Do you just go to the supermarket and buy 7 one gallon jugs.

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Yep, I get Safeway's Refreshe brand for under a $1 a gallon. I just typically buy 6 gallons and I've never needed more.

I have made three extract batches of beer and my son insists there is a aftertaste in each one. After reading this thread I went and got as much info as I could about our water supply. I hope someone can help me interpert the numbers. Also I know from having a hot tub the ph is over 9 and the alkalinity is over 180. From the water report I have chloride is 98, Hardness as CACO3 is 279, nitrate as N 2.3, sodium 40, and sulfate 12. Any help would be appreciated.

Your alkalinity is rather high. It would be good for very dark beers like stouts and porters. The problem with high alkalinity is that it creates a high pH in your steeping water with certain grains and grain to water ratios. If you use a lot of water with your steeping grains and lighter grains, your pH will be too high and you will extract tannins. This can result in an astringency in the aftertaste.

If you use a smaller amount of water (1-2 quarts/lb of grain) and mainly dark grains like chocolate and roasted barley, those grains will bring your pH down into an acceptable range and you will not extract tannins.

Can you give a little more information about your recipes. Did you use steeping grains? What kinds? How much? How much water?

Your sodium and sulfate levels look low enough not to cause any problems, so unless you're getting a lot of those from your extract, the source of our problems are probably different.

Thanks for the reply. I have done batches with only 1 to 2 pounds of grains in them. I am in the process of getting set up to do all grain. In the mean time what would I do to lower the alkalinity?

Toivo said:

Thanks for the reply. I have done batches with only 1 to 2 pounds of grains in them. I am in the process of getting set up to do all grain. In the mean time what would I do to lower the alkalinity?

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The short answer is to use part tap water and part distilled or reverse osmosis (RO) water. Both of those have nearly all of the minerals removed so you can consider the mineral content 0. As far as how much to dilute it, if you don't want to do all of the research and number crunching, 50/50 would be a good place to start.

If you do want to do all of the number crunching and research, there is some good information on how to adjust your water to get the proper water profile for any style of beer. I would recommend reading chapter 15 of How to Brew:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html
Near the end he gives a spreadsheet where you can enter in your water's mineral content, adjust it by diluting and/or adding brewing salts, and then it will tell you what the alkalinity will be.

The last blind tasting for this experiment was done last night. Here are the results along with a conclusion for the experiment.

Results (Continued)
All tasting of the beer was done blind. It turns out that half of the people actually preferred the tap water beer over the distilled water beer. As I stated in an earlier thread, SWMBO was one of those, but she couldn't describe why. She tends to like more bitter beers, so maybe the higher sulfate content of the tap water beer accentuated the bitterness. The other person that liked the tap water beer described it as smoother and noticed a slightly darker color. That person described the distilled water beer as not having an aftertaste, less body, and sharp. They thought they detected a bit of chlorine, but they weren't certain.

I along with another one of the blind tasters preferred the distilled water beer. I definitely detected the harsh quality in the tap water beer that inspired me to do this experiment. To me, the tap water beer was sharp, harsh, and biting. The distilled water beer was smooth and not harsh at all. The other taster who preferred the distilled water beer described it as light, low carbonation, and no aftertaste. They described the tap water beer as slightly bitter in the back of the throat (aftertaste).

Conclusion
All brewers must be cautious of the sodium and sulfate levels in their brewing water. The extract brewer has an extra burden because they also inherit the water profile that the extract was made with.

High levels of sodium and sulfate (in my case over the 200ppm level) can lead to a beer that is harsh and astringent to some people. Others may actually prefer a beer made with this water. I am convinced that the harshness in my batch that inspired this experiment was due to high levels of sodium and sulfate.

Using all distilled water may not be the best answer either. It may lack minerals and the final pH may be off.

If you notice that your beer has a harsh aftertaste, and you are an extract brewer, try brewing with all distilled or RO water. This will solve the harshness problem, but you may need to tweak the water to get the proper pH.

I use distilled water when I make extract brews as well. Or at least carbon filtered water.

Forrest

Toivo said:

I have made three extract batches of beer and my son insists there is a aftertaste in each one. After reading this thread I went and got as much info as I could about our water supply. I hope someone can help me interpert the numbers. Also I know from having a hot tub the ph is over 9 and the alkalinity is over 180. From the water report I have chloride is 98, Hardness as CACO3 is 279, nitrate as N 2.3, sodium 40, and sulfate 12. Any help would be appreciated.

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Your Chloride and Sulfate are not well balanced. I would use a water calculator and consider some Epsom (MgSO2) to balance that ratio a bit. I use BeerSmith to build my water profiles from RO.

I do not know much about the science of water involved in brewing. I know what works best for me when I do all grain.

I was just wondering about the following:

The chemistry of water is essential in all steps of brewing. Do any of the producers of extracts give the water analysis for the water they use?
The extracts are made with distillation processes of differing methods leaving many if not all of the minerals and such behind as only H2O is taken from the original wort.

Do you need to add water with a balanced profile to LME or DME that may have been produced with a balanced water to begin with?


????? bosco

I think the mystery lies in the elemental makeup of the extract producers water. If they use a more alkaline water or one high in sodium and the brewer doesn't know this, then the brewer might unnecessarily add more of this element to his RO water while trying to create a profile.

helibrewer said:

I think the mystery lies in the elemental makeup of the extract producers water. If they use a more alkaline water or one high in sodium and the brewer doesn't know this, then the brewer might unnecessarily add more of this element to his RO water while trying to create a profile.

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Thanks,

If I ever do another extract only kit I think I'll use distilled or R/O water since my tapwater is very hard.

bosco

I've used distilled water in all of my Extract brews, and this flavor pops up in all of them. I've tried steeping grans in 1 gal in a pot and other things trying to nail down the cause. My All-Grain brews turn out fine, using untested town water. My extracts are ALWAYS brewed with distilled.

I think all of my extract brews have had this....I'm going with distiller water from now on

I just racked an imperial CDA, and the flavor was really pronounced.

For this to be more scientific effort, you really should address what other factors contribute to the claimed bitterness. Without identifying and eliminating those variables in your tests, your results can never be conclusive.

no disrespect intended, but just jumping into the deep end doesn't always teach you how to properly swim.

I often have this "twang" taste, too. Next batch I am going to use all RO water. My question is: when steeping grains, should I add some DME to the RO water that I am steeping in?
thanks!

Yes, this is an old topic. It was mentioned in a recent (early 2023) topic. I thought I would put some updated information here (rather than there).

On the topic of what minerals are might be in various brands of DME / LME:

• A topic over at Brewers Friend
• The Bru'n Water spreadsheet
• The book Brewing Engineering (2015)

The topic of steeping in wort is mentioned in #25. It's also in the extract brewing process (chapter 1) in How to Brew, 4e (2017). The process in the book has additional ideas (and explanations for those ideas). If one is looking for a solid starting point for brewing with DME / LME: "buy once, cry once" and read (deeply) for understanding.

These topics /link1/, /link2/, /link3/ and the topics mentioned in those topics, mostly written in 2022, will have additional current insights into brewing with DME & LME.

So I have a few questions.

What is your boil pot made out of?
Are there any deep scratches, Rust or dark coloured areas?
What are the pipes in your home. are they copper or are they older?
Lastly what is you fermentation process?

I have only noticed this sort of thing happening myself with single stage fermentation. The use of less than fresh extracts. Old pipes either from the town to the home or in the home. And lastly damaged brew pots.

I double ferment and rack to the secondary after 14 days. Than it ferments in the secondary in a controlled freezer at about 65 degrees for about a month to 2 depending. Then I bottle and natural carbonate with extra lite DME or corn sugar. I don't know its its just my water but I am honestly interested in the thought that could also be something else with in the brewing process?

I'll just set this here.