Almost afraid of using 3787!

I have a tripel scheduled for tomorrow so during the week I have been growing the yeast in stepped up starters. I am using WYeast 3787 High Gravity Trappist. Yesterday I put it in a growler that was a tad over half full and it was bubbling away happily before work. Coming home tonight I find that it overflowed with yeast all over the towel I had wrapping it! I looked into the strain on here and see it is famous for a very violent and vigorous fermentation. I may just fill the carboy to the 3.5 gallon mark until the main fermentation is done and top it off. Is there any concern of oxidizing the beer if I were to do this? I also see it is good to incrementally feed it more sugar (planning on doing 2 feedings of 1 lb sugar in a boiled pint of water each time). Would I be concerned with splashing the wort when I pour these in? Thanks!

bknifefight said:

I may just fill the carboy to the 3.5 gallon mark until the main fermentation is done and top it off. Is there any concern of oxidizing the beer if I were to do this? I also see it is good to incrementally feed it more sugar

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That is a great yeast! I have used it a lot and it produces some really exceptional flavors as long as you don't ferment too warm. I have even used the blowoff from one batch to ferment another smaller batch.

If you are brewing a 5 gallon batch, brew all 5 gallons and ferment it all the way through. This yeast does create a lot of blowoff, but as long as you have a good 6 inches of headspace you will be fine. I have fermented 5 gallon quads in 6.5 gallon carboys using this yeast and all turned out fine. Though, I think the key here is keeping your temperature under control to keep both the blowoff and the flavor profile in check.

6 inches of headspace. Got it. All I have is a 5 gallon carboy though so I will give it some room and and fill in the space during the feedings. Any idea on the possibility of getting oxygen into the beer when feeding it?

Yeah be sure to have a good sized blowoff tube -you DO NOT want that thing to get clogged.

Also, while you don't have to do incremental feedings to get this yeast to fully attenuate, this yeast does tolerate them pretty well. The key is to adding them when fermentation is very active and not after the main fermentation ends. When I do this, I will usually do one sugar addition around 36hrs into fermentation and keep the temp around 65-68F. I have got great attenuation from this yeast, it consistently takes my belgian dark strong from around 1.090 to 1.010 or lower. Also, don't be afraid to leave the beer in the primary for 3 weeks or so. This yeast cleans up wonderfully.

Right now I have a small blow off tube that fits into the rubber stopper. That may not be enough if it is too vigorous. I think it is a 3/8th tubing that will fit pretty well into the top of a carboy, I may visit the hardware store this morning! I am excited to get the ball rolling and luckily have enough session beer on hand that this tripel can take it's time.

When you boil your sugar water you will remove most of the oxygen from it. So just use care to avoid lots of splashing when you pour it in and you'll have no fear of adding oxygen. If you are really worried about it you could rack your sugar water into the carboy and not add any oxygen at all but that's probably going over board/ unnecessary. In other words: no worries!

"Right now I have a small blow off tube that fits into the rubber stopper. That may not be enough if it is too vigorous. I think it is a 3/8th tubing that will fit pretty well into the top of a carboy"

I have used this configuration (3/8" tubing, airlock sans interior and top cap, #10 stopper & growler full of StarSan) and it works great. It has handled the most violent fermentations (currently I have Wyeast Am Ale II churning like mad through a Pliny clone). I have also used a larger diameter tubing with a milk jug but since I am using 6 gal BB's that setup does not provide a tight fit with the tubing + carboy.

Just have to make certain that the airlock neck that goes down into the rubber stopper does not become clogged with trub. You will know it is clogged if you see liquid bubbling in the neck of the airlock. Simply remove it (be ready for the CO2 blast), unclog the tip of the airlock, and spray it with StarSan (sanitizer). Put it back into the stopper and you are back in business. Montanaandy

"This yeast does create a lot of blowoff, but as long as you have a good 6 inches of headspace you will be fine."

I would say that you normally don't want to intentionally leave 6" of head space because it can cause potential problems. With yeasts/brews known to produce violent (i.e Irish Ale, Trappist, if corn sugar has been added, etc.) I fill the carboy up and leave as little airspace as possible hence the blow off tubing. With a beer that is going to violently ferment like the one you are brewing I personally try to fill my 6 gal BB's with at least 5.5 gal if possible (If I have the wort). I always end up losing a considerable amount of wort to blow off and if you go into the fermentation with a 6" gap you can subsequently end up with too much headspace which can potentially invite a host of problems. Montanaandy

I would add some fermcap to the primary in order to minimize the potential for blowoff/amount of blowoff. But keep the blowoff tube in there just in case, because that yeast can be a beast even with fermcap.

Montanaandy said:

"This yeast does create a lot of blowoff, but as long as you have a good 6 inches of headspace you will be fine."

I would say that you normally don't want to intentionally leave 6" of head space because it can cause potential problems. With yeasts/brews known to produce violent (i.e Irish Ale, Trappist, if corn sugar has been added, etc.) I fill the carboy up and leave as little airspace as possible hence the blow off tubing. With a beer that is going to violently ferment like the one you are brewing I personally try to fill my 6 gal BB's with at least 5.5 gal if possible (If I have the wort). I always end up losing a considerable amount of wort to blow off and if you go into the fermentation with a 6" gap you can subsequently end up with too much headspace which can potentially invite a host of problems. Montanaandy

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uh, what are you talking about? too much headspace is NOT a problem

chemman14 said:

uh, what are you talking about? too much headspace is NOT a problem

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Yeah I kind of agree with you. What could be the issue with a healthy ferment going? Oxygen is actively forced out at this stage. If you have a lot of head space you might want to put it in a smaller carboy (or whatever) to secondary but at this stage of the game I can't see a down side (except more beer is always better!). I can think of a host of problems that could arise from having too little beer on hand! lol

"uh, what are you talking about? too much headspace is NOT a problem"

Enlighten me as to why having a larger amount of headspace is not a problem.

Read what Revvy and other have stated repeatedly. Excessive head space certainly can be the source of a potential problem once fermentation ceases and you have all of that dead airspace. All the more chance of oxygen getting into the beer which you don't want. Again, if you initially leave a 6" headspace and you have a yeast that throws off a violent fermentation such as the yeast that the OP is using you will have a very large amount of headspace which is not good.

Montanaandy said:

"uh, what are you talking about? too much headspace is NOT a problem"

Enlighten me as to why having a larger amount of headspace is not a problem.

Read what Revvy and other have stated repeatedly. Excessive head space certainly can be the source of a potential problem once fermentation ceases and you have all of that dead airspace. All the more chance of oxygen getting into the beer which you don't want. Again, if you initially leave a 6" headspace and you have a yeast that throws off a violent fermentation such as the yeast that the OP is using you will have a very large amount of headspace which is not good.

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Listen I don't want to argue with you here. You are entitled to your opinions. But I think I spelled it out in my last post. A headspace that is filled with co2 is not going to introduce oxygen. REMEMBER we are talking about primary fermentation here, lots of headspace is much preferable to exploding carboys. No one is saying 6" of headspace is ideal but it's certainly not worth getting all huffy about it. Relax, have a beer! Your beer will taste great even with some o2 in there so long as you don't let it age for months on end.

Btw, please explain what the problem is with a violent fermentation and too much headspace, aside from o2 that is. What sort of 'problems' can one expect?

I regularly ferment 3 gallon batches in 6.5 gallon carboys and I have NEVER had a problem, infection or whatever because of too much headspace. The only time I don't want lots of headspace is during secondary, especially if I am going to bulk age it for longer than a month.

"I regularly ferment 3 gallon batches in 6.5 gallon carboys and I have NEVER had a problem, infection or whatever because of too much headspace".

Interesting. Would be curious to know what beers/styles you have brewed (high gravity or low) what yeasts you used, and how the attenuation ended up? I am assuming that you have allowed the 3 gal to remain in the 6.5 gal carboy for the entire fermentation (no secondary).

"The only time I don't want lots of headspace is during secondary, especially if I am going to bulk age it for longer than a month."

Why would the presence of excessive headspace be of a concern in secondary but not in primary (assuming an extended primary without racking to secondary). In either case the fermentation has ceased and the protective layer of CO2 will be dissipated. I am not disputing what you are stating - just looking for clarification/explanation. You will not get an argument from me re: headspace in secondary. This is well known. However many/most of us don't secondary anymore, hence my questions/concerns about excessive headspace in the primary. Montanaandy

I regularly leave my 5 gallon batches in a 6.5 gallon ale pail for primary (3 weeks), so I have 1.5 gallons of headspace. When I take off the lid to rack to my bottling bucket, my nostrils will burn from the C02 if I stick my head near the top of the primary. I'm no chemist, and I may be wrong, but that indicates to me that little to no oxygen has entered the primary.

Woah! I leave for the weekend and come back to find this thread has been turned into a wrestling match! haha Anyways, I left a few inches of headspace and the krausen is filling it up right now. Some blow off is happening but it hasn't been too crazy as I pitched cold and have been slowly increasing the temp. This morning before work it was 66. If it starts into the lower 70's I may cover it in a wet towel to lower it a few degrees.

This yeast is a beast. It will scoff at Fermcap and blowoff for days and days even with 4" of headspace. Use a blowoff tube and clean it frequently is my advice.

Yea, I've used Fermcap with 3787, which lessened the violence of the blow-off, but did not eliminate it.

Montanaandy said:

"
Why would the presence of excessive headspace be of a concern in secondary but not in primary (assuming an extended primary without racking to secondary). In either case the fermentation has ceased and the protective layer of CO2 will be dissipated. I am not disputing what you are stating - just looking for clarification/explanation. You will not get an argument from me re: headspace in secondary. This is well known. However many/most of us don't secondary anymore, hence my questions/concerns about excessive headspace in the primary. Montanaandy

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The protective layer of CO2 will not just dissipate. CO2 is heavier than air, so it will stay around until displaced with some other gas. If you keep your airlock full, only excess CO2 will escape. As for head space in your bright tank (secondary) if you xfer your beer using CO2 and purge your secondary vessel with CO2 prior to xfer, you will have no issues there with oxygenating either.

bierhaus15 said:

I regularly ferment 3 gallon batches in 6.5 gallon carboys and I have NEVER had a problem, infection or whatever because of too much headspace. The only time I don't want lots of headspace is during secondary, especially if I am going to bulk age it for longer than a month.

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+1...I do the same and have never had a problem.

"The protective layer of CO2 will not just dissipate. CO2 is heavier than air, so it will stay around until displaced with some other gas. If you keep your airlock full, only excess CO2 will escape."

This is what I was looking for - a logical explanation. Thanks. At somepoint over the past 30 on-off years of brewing I was led to believe that headspace was a bad thing because it allowed for the possibility of oxygenation.

I do not normally encounter excessive headspace in my carboys because I normally try to maximize the space available in the carboy and brew accordingly (i.e. have enough wort after boil off so that it will fit the carboy leaving enough headspace for blow off) so that I will get as much beer out of the batch/brewing as I can. I normally use a blow off tube and substitute a 3 piece airlock when vigorous fermentation has subsided. This has worked well for me. Montanaandy