Which Pliny?

Hey guys and gals, I've heard so dang much about Pliny the Elder but am located in TX and just can't get a hold of a bottle or 12, so I'd like to brew up a batch so I can finally see what all the hubbub is about. The dilemma I see is which recipe should I brew?

I know Vinnie collaborated with Brew Your Own and came up with a 5gal version and thats what i would like to brew. I found one recipe that claims to be the BYO one here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/imperial-ipa-recipe-13758/index2.html#post129699

Another that looks like it could be official recipe is this one: http://farmhousebrewingsupply.fmtemp.com/ProdImages/1Pliny the Elder clone PDF-1.pdf

Both have similar grainbills (slightly different %s), but the hops are pretty different in the two, and for this beer, I really want them to be right.

So, what do you think? Which is Vinnie's homebrew Pliny?

They both are, the first one was the recipe he handed out a few years ago, the other is more recent. I brewed the old one and really liked the results, I've heard similarly positive reviews on the new one as well.

I've brewed the new one and it is awesome. I used Maris Otter which was quite nice!

Awesome! Thanks for the replies! Looks like I'm good with either recipe. Lupulin threshold shift, here I come!

Just kegged a batch of the newer recipe using the Pliny Pack sold at farmhouse brewing supply. I subbed crystal-10 for the crystal-45 to better replicate the color, but kept the percentage the same, and I used american 2-row for my batch.

Came out very close to the actual thing. Aroma is the only thing lacking in my opinion, but even then it's not off by much.

I brewed the new one, with the Pliny Hop Pack from farmhouse brewing supply. Turned out great, best beer I have brewed. I think the key is to have a low finishing gravity to make the Hops really pop. I mashed at 148deg for 90 min, boil for 90 min, aerated with O2 and pitched a 2L starter from a stir plate. My FG was 1.005. Keg didn't last near long enough. I just ordered another Pliny Hop Pack for my next brew.

I've been eyeing the Pliny Pack at Farmhouse, but the website says it's out of stock. When it's back in stock, I'll have to grab up a pack or two.

@Garrett what about the aroma needs changing? For someone who hasn't had a Pliny the Elder before, does it matter much? Just curious. Thanks!

barrooze said:

@Garrett what about the aroma needs changing? For someone who hasn't had a Pliny the Elder before, does it matter much? Just curious. Thanks!

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It's just a little weak IMHO, and this was my first dry-hopped beer so I'm not sure how to alter that between upping the weight of hops or shortening/lengthening the dry hop period. The actual aromas are very similar to the ones in pliny, just not as pronounced. When I pour the beer, I'm not overcome with a wave of citrus and pine hops like the real thing. Even still, it's one of the best aromas you will encounter in a IIPA, so it doesn't really matter much.

I'm wondering the same thing. I have the original recipe which has CTZ(Columbus) hops, no Chinook and Warrior.

I can buy a pound of Columbus for $10, or spend $20 to get just enough of the Chinook, Simcoe, etc.

I guess my question is, which of these is better?

elproducto said:

I guess my question is, which of these is better?

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"better" is all in the eye of the beholder. What I was wondering is why Vinnie changed his recipe. Hops availability? Overall "improvement" of the recipe? Etc.

Eiher way, I just got the hops for the new recipe so I'll be brewing that one up at some point!

I don't actually have access to the commercial version, so cloning doesn't really matter to me.

elproducto said:

I don't actually have access to the commercial version, so cloning doesn't really matter to me.

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Me neither. I want to brew it because of all the buzz it's generated. Also, I've never brewed an IIPA before so it outta be a good learning experience.

Hey barrooze, since I live close to Russian River, email me, we can work out a trade and I'll send you a bottle of the Pliny, if your interested in doing a comparison after you brew it.

Vinny changes it just to change it. It changes all the time whereas hop availability would cause annual changes at most.

One difference between the current versions and all of the published homebrew recipes is that most of the bitterness is from extract. Northern Brewer sells a similar (I suspect identical) extract as "Hop Shot". I've been using this in IIPA, barleywine etc, stuff with tons of hops. Keeps me from putting a pound of hops in the kettle so yield is higher.

I subbed out the CTZ additions for hopshot and it was a fantastic beer. Low hop trub as well to deal with. It wasn't the cheapest approach but it was effective.

I did the Farmhouse Pliny Pack and it is great, just had my first one yesterday. It is definitely a more cost effective way to do it (~$12.50), especially if you don't buy in bulk. I haven't had the realy Pliny either, so can't say if it is close or not.

On that topic
Emc- I'd be willing to work a trade with you if you want. Not sure what you are looking for, but I have access to 3 Floyds and still have some Hopslam as well.

Happy to trade local beer for local beer. Just love an excuse or opportunity to try things I can't get here, try others homebrew. So whatever. My email is [email protected], so I don't totally hijack the thread shoot me an email and we can trade addresses etc.

Vinnie has said each time he releases the homebrew recipe, he tweaks the version he produces. As a result, there are a few versions out there.


1 version>
http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/1Pliny the Elder clone PDF.pdf





another version>
14.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row)
0.65 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine
0.65 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L
0.81 lb Corn Sugar


3.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] (90 min) Hops 168.4 IBU
0.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] (45 min) Hops 32.4 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.30 %] (30 min) Hops 21.7 IBU
2.50 oz Simcoe [12.30 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Centennial [8.00 %] (0 min) Hops -

1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] (Dry Hop 12 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Centennial [9.10 %] (Dry Hop 12 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.30 %] (Dry Hop 12 days) Hops -

0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
0.25 oz Centennial [9.10 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.30 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -

White Labs #WLP001

Little off topic, but you can bottles of Pliny the Elder on ebay. Comes out to about $15 for a bottle, but for us Texas folks it's the only way to get a taste. That's how I got 2 bottles.

I have a couple of the Farmhouse Brewing Supply pliny packs and just had a baby so my brain is frazzled... LOL

BUT... I'm ready to start brewing my pliny pack but not sure where to go from here. I have done a couple of specialty grain brew kits and am pretty comfortable with that but not sure about going AG quite yet (wife would kill me for sure). If I do a specialty grain, could y'all recommend a good grain / DME / yeast combo for a 5 gallon batch?

Finally - with all the hops - is it best to drop them in a mesh bag since I'm bottling and not kegging?

OzarkPA said:

I have a couple of the Farmhouse Brewing Supply pliny packs and just had a baby so my brain is frazzled... LOL

BUT... I'm ready to start brewing my pliny pack but not sure where to go from here. I have done a couple of specialty grain brew kits and am pretty comfortable with that but not sure about going AG quite yet (wife would kill me for sure). If I do a specialty grain, could y'all recommend a good grain / DME / yeast combo for a 5 gallon batch?

Finally - with all the hops - is it best to drop them in a mesh bag since I'm bottling and not kegging?

Click to expand...

So I just brewed this a few weeks ago and was thinking I'd do the hop bags also. I put the 90 minute addition in the mesh bag since it had the most hop mass. BTW, only use the hop bag if they won't compact the hops. You want to ensure you get all the hop utilization you can.

For the DME, substitute 9.9 lb of extra light DME for the 2-row malt. You should steep the Crystal 45 and Carapils as you normally would for an extract recipe. Add the dextrose sugar to the boil.

For the yeast, either use a properly-sized starter of WLP001 or Wyeast 1056. If you use dry yeast, you'll want to use 1.5-2 11.5g packages, and rehydrate properly.

And congrats on the baby! Get as much sleep as you can! If you have any other questions, let us know!

Just tried this, hope it rules!

3% 6 8 Northwestern Gold DME info 39 7 ~
11% 1 0 American Two-row Pale info 37 1 ~
6% 0 8 Cara-Pils/Dextrine info 33 2 ~
6% 0 8 Crystal 45 info 34 45 ~
4% 0 6 Corn Sugar (Dextrose) info 46 0 ~
Batch size: 5.0 gallons


Original Gravity
1.070 measured
(1.065 estimated)
Final Gravity
1.016 / 4.1° Plato
(1.014 to 1.017)
Color
0° SRM / 0.0° EBC measured
(9° SRM estimated)
(Gold to Copper)
Mash Efficiency
75%

hops
use time oz variety form aa
boil 90 mins 3.5 Columbus info pellet 14.2
boil 45 mins 0.75 Columbus info pellet 14.2
boil 30 mins 1.0 Simcoe info pellet 12.2
post-boil 1 min 2.5 Simcoe info pellet 12.2
post-boil 1 min 1.0 Centennial info pellet 8.7
dry hop 12 days 0.25 Columbus info pellet 14.2
dry hop 12 days 0.25 Centennial info pellet 8.7
dry hop 12 days 0.25 Simcoe info pellet 12.2
dry hop 7 days 1.0 Centennial info pellet 8.7
dry hop 7 days 1.0 Simcoe info pellet 12.2
dry hop 7 days 1.0 Columbus info pellet 14.2

Boil: 8.0 avg gallons for 90 minutes


Bitterness
298.9 IBU / 104 HBU
ƒ: Tinseth
BU:GU
4.57

yeast
Wyeast American Ale (1056) info
ale yeast in liquid form with low to medium flocculation and 75% attenuation


Alcohol
6.5% ABV / 5% ABW
Calories
214 per 12 oz.

misc
use time amount ingredient
boil 15 min 1 ea Irish Moss

Thanks guys! Yeah, sleep is precious right now, but this is our third child (got my boy this time . I haven't used a 'properly sized starter' before, just used the dry packets. Does that refer to building / propagating / multiplying the original yeast? I think when I was looking at this before, AHS called for two tubes of yeast so does building the starter save a little money?

Oh I forgot - I bought the hops last fall and put them in the freezer - should they still be ok? And lastly - that recipe above called for 8 gallons, will it loose that much in a 90 min boil?

Mine came to 5 gallons (after boiling 8) almost exactly after a 90 min boil.

If you're using dry yeast, there's no need to make a starter. Just make sure you use the correct amount of dry yeast (that amount can be determined using Mr. Malty's Yeast Pitching Calculator found here: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html) and properly rehydrate it (my process for rehydrating can be found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/fermentation-stopped-1-044-a-236078/index4.html#post2791312). If you do those two things, your yeast should be very healty and happy. Good luck!

The fellow at my LHBS helped me to come up with this mix based off of the recipies and suggestions here:

8# LDME
8oz Crystal 20 (they didn't have 45, only 60 or 20 so I opted for the lighter)
8oz Carapils
8.5oz Corn sugar

I'll do the 8 gallon boil down to 5 with hops and see how she does!

There's actually a third version of this in Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles called 'Hop Hammer'. I thought it was very tasty, but didn't really have a handle on my brewing water, and felt it ended up favoring a maltier beer. Still delicious though.

For those of you who can't get Pliny, don't fret too much. Obviously with a beer like this, getting it young is super critical. It may be if they were shipping Pliny all over the US, you wouldn't get what you liked anyway.

cmoon said:

There's actually a third version of this in Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles called 'Hop Hammer'. I thought it was very tasty, but didn't really have a handle on my brewing water, and felt it ended up favoring a maltier beer. Still delicious though.

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Just to clarify, the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles is not for Pliny the Elder. As Jamil states in the book, it's an Imperial IPA recipe based off of Vinnie's Pliny the Elder recipe, but is not itself a PtE recipe. There's dozens of recipes out there that are based off of PtE, but only two (that I'm aware of) that Vinnie himself created that scale down the commercial beer to a homebrew batch size. Two of these offshoots are JZ's Hop Hammer and Mike McDole's Sam Adams Long Shot winning beer.

I just wanted to make that clarification so as not to let people think there are tons of recipes out there for a true Pliny the Elder... Either way, if it's the real deal or an offshoot, I'm sure it'll be tasty!! Just brew it!

Thanks for the clarification.

Right now fermenting the version in BYO's 250 clone issue with a few modifications and an unintentional extra hop addition ( ). This time though, had the water chemistry under control. Should be awesome!

What in your water threw off the beer? From where do you get your water?

I have been using the bottled water from a local grocery store in combination with the pH 4.5 buffer. I believe they are in fact just filtering local tap water for chlorine and chloramine. When I got a report from them, the numbers were extremely vague (ranging by a few hundred for each ion), so I had the wards test done for my tap water.

For my Pliny, I noticed I had all the flavor and aroma, but none of the bite and mouthfeel. I want this beer to be crisp, drinkable but if the bitterness is just some distant sensation, I've failed somehow.

I recently made a munich helles using brewing salt additions, and the mouthfeel is perfect. I've only been brewing a year and a half, but I think this one change pushed my beer from something that was occasionally/accidentally great to something that I might want to start entering in contests.

Here is my household water profile and the changes I made for pliny:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 17
Mg: 5
Na: 34
Cl: 23
SO4: 6
HCO3: 114

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.5 / 5.6
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 14.39
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.14
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 7.3

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 1.8 / 2.24
CaCl2: 1 / 1.244444444
MgSO4: 1.1 / 1.368888889
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 2.5
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 57 / 57
Mg: 11 / 11
Na: 34 / 34
Cl: 51 / 51
SO4: 90 / 90
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.57 / 0.57

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -79
RA: -126
Estimated pH: 5.34

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barrooze said:

Just to clarify, the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles is not for Pliny the Elder. As Jamil states in the book, it's an Imperial IPA recipe based off of Vinnie's Pliny the Elder recipe, but is not itself a PtE recipe. There's dozens of recipes out there that are based off of PtE, but only two (that I'm aware of) that Vinnie himself created that scale down the commercial beer to a homebrew batch size. Two of these offshoots are JZ's Hop Hammer and Mike McDole's Sam Adams Long Shot winning beer.

I just wanted to make that clarification so as not to let people think there are tons of recipes out there for a true Pliny the Elder... Either way, if it's the real deal or an offshoot, I'm sure it'll be tasty!! Just brew it!

Click to expand...

And to clarify my clarification, I just reread the Hop Hammer blurb in BCS and it looks like you're right! Hop Hammer is Jamil's version of Pliny the Elder. He states that Hop Hammer is a direct descendant of Pliny the Elder, though it is a little bigger. Any differences are a result of the scaling down from commercial-size to homebrew-size.

I'm sure it's a good brew, but if you want a true PtE, you could always do up one of Vinnie's recipe.

I pitched two packets of ale yeast and it's gone a little nuts! Do I relax or worry? I'm just trying to keep the bubbler clear because the next day the top of the bucket was bulging out...

OzarkPA said:

I pitched two packets of ale yeast and it's gone a little nuts! Do I relax or worry? I'm just trying to keep the bubbler clear because the next day the top of the bucket was bulging out...

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Relax Might want to think about a blow off tube (tube going into a container of sanitizer). Saved my bacon after a wall full of krausen in the master bedroom!

Yeah........put a blow off on that!. If you don't know what that is, put a tube on the inner cyliner of the airlock going into a 1L or bigger jug of sanitized water.

Crud.... when I did the OG it was 1.066 and should have been 1.07 - I just realized I forgot to put in the dextrose. Would it be ok to still add it now? Boil and cool it then pour it in the airlock hole? I brewed last Thursday night.

OzarkPA said:

Crud.... when I did the OG it was 1.066 and should have been 1.07 - I just realized I forgot to put in the dextrose. Would it be ok to still add it now? Boil and cool it then pour it in the airlock hole? I brewed last Thursday night.

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Should be fine, I acutally like to wait a few days to add sugar for strong beers to reduce the stress on the yeast.

I know a bottle shop out in California that will ship Pliny into Texas if you still havent been able to get your hands on some.

Oldsock said:

Should be fine, I acutally like to wait a few days to add sugar for strong beers to reduce the stress on the yeast.

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I have a similar situation. I used the entire farmhouse all grain kit a couple of days ago and ended up with an OG of around 1.065. Should I add more sugar or just let it go?