GrogNerd
mean old man
likelyhood that they would build goodwill with home brewers; inversely proportional to the size of the brewery
Do you think the professional breweries tell the truth
- Thread starter reinstone
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
likelyhood that they would build goodwill with home brewers; inversely proportional to the size of the brewery
OK, some of that, but I'm sure if you looked at a pie chart of their customers, home brewers would be a very, very small piece. Of course, I'm making up statistics, but wth this is the internet.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
I have to agree that I don't think there's any real incentive (from a business perspective) for a professional brewery to offer up their recipe's to the homebrewing world. What would we do? Organize and boycott them for withholding them? Doubtful. That being said, many professional brewers (particularly craft brews) have ties (or a past) in the homebrewing world and have a general love and appreciation for the brewing of good beer. I think it actually makes some of them feel good to share it (and maybe puts their brand in a positive light in some circles). A local brewery here (Holy City), sells the same grains, hops, and yeast used in their beers in an effort to promote homebrewing.
As for clones, I read the blog from Starr Hill Brewery and I have to agree with those who say his response appears condescending with a lecturing tone. If he doesn't want to give out recipes, like others have already said, just say so. But, since he gets asked, I guess he is entitled to whatever answer he would like to give.
As for brewing clones, I do it on occasion. The first clone I ever brewed was a DFH 60 minute. I thought it tasted great and I enjoyed the heck out of it. My next brew is going to be a clone of Pliny the Elder. Why? Because I live in South Carolina. Mr. Pliny has never graced South Carolina with his presence so I have never had one. I would like to brew a clone of it to get some idea of what Pliny is like.
Just my humble .02 cents. Cheers!
EDIT: Here's the link to Holy City where they discuss homebrewing
http://www.holycitybrewing.com/homebrew-supplies
As for clones, I read the blog from Starr Hill Brewery and I have to agree with those who say his response appears condescending with a lecturing tone. If he doesn't want to give out recipes, like others have already said, just say so. But, since he gets asked, I guess he is entitled to whatever answer he would like to give.
As for brewing clones, I do it on occasion. The first clone I ever brewed was a DFH 60 minute. I thought it tasted great and I enjoyed the heck out of it. My next brew is going to be a clone of Pliny the Elder. Why? Because I live in South Carolina. Mr. Pliny has never graced South Carolina with his presence so I have never had one. I would like to brew a clone of it to get some idea of what Pliny is like.
Just my humble .02 cents. Cheers!
EDIT: Here's the link to Holy City where they discuss homebrewing
http://www.holycitybrewing.com/homebrew-supplies
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Certainly not. Although I will say that when it comes to choosing between two otherwise equally appealing beers, I am now less likely to pick beers from Lazy Magnolia as a result of their response. So no, not a boycott, but when all else is approximately equal, their choice will impact my buying decisions.
I fully admit that my personal decision will have no noticeable impact on their bottom line, and even the cumulative impact of all homebrewer's who took the same course of action would be minimal at best, and probably also not noticeable. :fro:
Great point! I was just sitting here thinking about how I would feel staring at a Starr Hill brew and deciding on a purchase. Right or wrong, I don't think I would buy one right now.
GrogNerd
mean old man
in his defense, they do include ingredients on the particular brews' web page, just not exact grain bill or hop schedule.
doesn't make him any less of a dick
at the store today, I did pass up Northern Lights, The Gift and The Love for some other beers
hogwash
Well-Known Member
No one is missing anything by passing up a Starr Hill. ba-ZIIING!!
Sorry, just had to snark. They make a couple decent beers but I don't care for most of their stuff. Anyway, sorry for going off topic...
GrogNerd
mean old man
says dude who lives 15 miles from the brewery
hogwash said:
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and did before I saw the snarky comment from them. Their beer is adequate, IMO, but nothing more. Rather drink Hardywood, Smartmouth (b/c it's local), or a West Coast IPA. But mostly I drink my own, clone or not
kingwood-kid
Well-Known Member
If you're going to make up statistics, do so with unassailable precision. Everyone knows 7.84% of craft brew is sold to rectangular cooler batch spargers! I'll agree that homebrewers are a small slice. But most craft breweries have minimal advertising budgets; cultivating the fanatical windbags is a cheap way of generating word-of-mouth. Plus if I'm trying to clone your beer, I have to keep buying six-packs so I can post side-by-side photos on HBT.
highgravitybacon
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2012
- Messages
- 925
- Reaction score
- 223
He's not making up statistics. You are. 8% of it is ROUND cooler fly spargers.
But you're spot on about the clone beer generating, not taking away from, sales of said cloned beer. I am frequently amused by people who "clone" a beer they've never had. I get what they mean, but if you've never had it, how can you reasonably a. know that it isn't overhyped turd sauce in a bottle, b. your clone was indeed a clone and simply not another variation of a recipe?
Considering I'm the one who mentioned cloning a Pliny that I've never had, I would be happy to respond to your questions.
a. Does it taste like overhyped turd sauce? Cause if it does, tell me now before I waste some cash on grains and hops. Considering the reputation of the beer and my love of the style, I'm pretty sure that its not overhyped turd sauce. So, if my clone comes out tasting like the turd sauce you mention, I can safely assume I screwed something up. Not sure if I've ever had turd sauce, but I can imagine it tastes pretty bad. Look, I couldn't try Yoopers House Pale Ale before I made it either and it didn't taste like turd sauce. It was great! Should I have requested a bottle of it from her before daring to try the recipe?
b. I can't possibly know and I don't really care. In the end, I just hope it tastes good. But what I do know is that I hear lots of great things about Pliny and I have a recipe for it. Why not try it? It's not like my goal is to slap a fake Pliny label on it and try to pass it off as the real thing to my buddies. My goal is to make great beer. I found a recipe that could make great beer (that happens to be a clone). Why not try it?
Now, if anyone does have some Pliny they would like to send me in the name of satisfying a perceived requirement to have the original beer before you try a clone recipe, PM me and I'll get you my shipping address.
hogwash
Well-Known Member
Heheh. We are somewhat awash in their beer here and I used to drink the heck out of it. But I feel like the quality went down after they got the big distribution deal. The double platinum is quite good, or at least it was the last time I had it a couple summers ago. The initial version of Northern Lights was very good but they changed the recipe and it's not nearly as good now. The Dark Starr Stout is usually good, too. Pass on the amber and Jomo. To be fair, I need to hit the tasting room sometime and try some of the new stuff. They've been doing some more interesting stuff that I haven't tasted.
My opinions, of course. Sorry to hijack the thread.
MagicSmoker
Well-Known Member
I'm relatively new to brewing and my main reason for wanting to brew known-accurate clone beers is to see how good my *process* is. For example, my first batch was an ESB using a custom recipe from my LHBS. To be blunt, it didn't turn out at all like I expected an ESB (and I mean a real ESB from a London pub, not Redhook). So my 2nd and 3rd batches were clones of two of my favorite beers, Bell's Two-Hearted and Terrapin Rye. The Bell's clone has been in the bottle for 2 weeks and tastes fantastic, with the only major difference I can detect is a little bit of cotton candy presence. The Terrapin Rye clone just got bottled on Sunday so it has a bit more conditioning to do before sampling, but if it turns out close to what I expect then I will have more confidence in my process going forward.
GrogNerd
mean old man
only started brewing back in October and started trying different beers from Total Wine single-bottle section, so only have had Northern Lights, Double Platinum, The Gift and Starr Saison.
now it's been a while and trying several other different breweries' offerings since, but I liked the SH's I have tried. Except the saison. didn't care for it, but I think I can blame that on an unrefined palate, not being used to beers other than PAs, IPAs and BMC types.
now I think I have to post this in the "funny things about beer" thread: the BigHair was at Wegman's and they had a rep from Starr Hill giving free samples of the Saison and my wife tried it, said she liked it. told the rep, "my husband likes Northern Lights" and the rep said, "oh, then he'll LOVE this."
again, I'm still shiny at this, but really? so, the BigHair brought home a 6pack and we're not even liking it at all
hogwash
Well-Known Member
A saison is nothing like an IPA. That's an example of the rep either knowing nothing about beer or just trying to push their new offering on someone who doesn't know any better. Talk about building ill will.
That being said, that's one of the new ones that I want to try. I love a good saison.
That being said, that's one of the new ones that I want to try. I love a good saison.
GrogNerd
mean old man
I like the variation I get.... I brewed a Harppon Clone recently and it is way hopper than I expected... I am letting it sit in my Kegs for a few months to see if it mellow to what I like...
If not I will cut back on the hops next time... BUT loads of other people love it!
I am a maltman my self and thin a really good brew should remind you of an unsweet milkshake....
If not I will cut back on the hops next time... BUT loads of other people love it!
I am a maltman my self and thin a really good brew should remind you of an unsweet milkshake....
I do feel kinda duuuuuuuurty when I buy a clone kit from [one of my favorite purveyors who shall go nameless here]. I mean, clearly [the purveyor] is banking on the brewery's name recognition and reputation, and none of the money [the purveyor] earns from the kit goes back to the brewery. Probably. The purveyor I'm thinking of offers clone kits from dozens of breweries; I doubt they have kickback agreements with all of them.
On the other hand, just by looking through their list of clones, I find out about new beers I've never had before. If they sound good, I'll buy their bottles at BevMo or whatever. So there's a sale and a level of consumer awareness they wouldn't have had without the clone purveyor. I know, that's a corner-corner-corner case of a silver lining.
On the other hand, I could just get the clone recipe online and buy the ingredients piecemeal from that same purveyor. The purveyor's kits just make it a one-click proposition for me.
I don't know. Gray area.
On the other hand, just by looking through their list of clones, I find out about new beers I've never had before. If they sound good, I'll buy their bottles at BevMo or whatever. So there's a sale and a level of consumer awareness they wouldn't have had without the clone purveyor. I know, that's a corner-corner-corner case of a silver lining.
On the other hand, I could just get the clone recipe online and buy the ingredients piecemeal from that same purveyor. The purveyor's kits just make it a one-click proposition for me.
I don't know. Gray area.
PleasantValleyHops
Well-Known Member
Well. To help u all out now. I live approx 5 miles from flying dog. And they are at just about every local homebrew meeting and host two a year at the brewery where they open their tap room to us w bottomless fills. And that happen to be their this month where they announced they are going to be doing clone kits! And the only way to get them is thru the local homebrew shop in town or pick up from the brewery. Ingredients are going to be measured when u get there and put into bags right then. U also get detailed instructions from the head brewers with it. And for all the skeptics. They pull the yeast off of the beer right then and there for u. So u get two viles Of slurry. They dont give you water additions bc everyones water is slighty different. So they give a profile that is the closest to it. I know flying dog is different bc they truely do support homebrewing and local business. But they are doing with their monthly releases so a homebrewer can brew their beer and when release time comes you can have them side by side to compare.
GrogNerd
mean old man
just spoke with the brewmaster at Sweetwater Tavern in my hometown and he was more than happy to share the recipe from his very tasty Black IPA
didn't hurt that I drank a pint right there and brought home a growler
he also told me that if I let him know ahead of time, he would hook me up with some of their yeast
didn't hurt that I drank a pint right there and brought home a growler
he also told me that if I let him know ahead of time, he would hook me up with some of their yeast
BigRedHopHead
Well-Known Member
My belief is this truth telling is quite varied. I think you will have better chances of getting info from local breweries if you are local and drink their beer like a local does. I asked Odell BC from Fort Collins CO back in december for some guidance on their Isolation Ale. Not straight quantities, but just the grain bill and hops. Told them I would play around with it and figure the rest out. NOT a word back from them. I am disappointed, at the minimum at least an email saying they have a policy against distribution of recipe info would have been understandable.
Honestly, when at the point of purchase now, unless it is something I have never had from Odell I tend to pass on their beer. Simply because I was never given the time or effort of a easy reply, good or bad. My local breweries have never treated me this way. Maybe Odell is getting too big to care about a singular home brewer. I don't know......But they sure aren't doing themselves any favors either. Buy local, drink local is my motto these days.
Honestly, when at the point of purchase now, unless it is something I have never had from Odell I tend to pass on their beer. Simply because I was never given the time or effort of a easy reply, good or bad. My local breweries have never treated me this way. Maybe Odell is getting too big to care about a singular home brewer. I don't know......But they sure aren't doing themselves any favors either. Buy local, drink local is my motto these days.
GrogNerd
mean old man
I actually had the same thing happen with Sweetwater.
I went to their website where they say "email the brewmaster, he'll be happy to respond!" so I wrote him. Told him how much I liked his BIPA, understood if he couldn't share the recipe but would like to know what hops he used
not a word back
I brought this up on my brew club's forum and they said, "oh, NO! they're a chain and you wrote to the chain's brewmaster. you have to talk to Joe, that particular restaurant's brewmaster... we're in good with him, we'll let him know you want the recipe. Just go in and talk to him, he'll hook you up"
kombat
Well-Known Member
I can think of several reasons.
1.) Maybe the beer isn't available in your region. For example, I'm in Canada. I recently had an opportunity to taste my first DFH 60 Minute IPA. It was delicious. I want more. But I'm in Canada and it's not available up here. So I found a "clone" recipe and made my own.
2.) Maybe the beer is no longer available anywhere. Maybe the brewery that made your favorite beer got bought out by AB-InBev and they've butchered the recipe to make it more appealing to the masses. Maybe your favorite brewery just plain went bankrupt and closed up shop.
3.) Maybe it's a seasonal beer that's only available certain times of the year.
4.) Maybe the brewery changed their recipe. One of my favorite beers was from a local brewery, but every few months, they change the hops they use to brew it. I loved it when they made it with Zythos hops, but their current batch uses Summit, which I'm not a fan of. So they shared the recipe with me, and I made it myself, using the Zythos hops I prefer.
5.) Cost. Note that this is near the bottom of my list, but for some penny-pinchers, it's a real factor for them. They can make an almost identical beer for less cost than buying it. Especially up here, north of the border, where a 6-pack of decent craft beer will run you $15.
6.) The challenge. It can be fun to see how closely we can duplicate our favorite beers, and you can learn a lot in the process of trying.
There's 6 good reasons right there.
GrogNerd
mean old man
kombat
Well-Known Member
By choosing a popular, well-reviewed recipe, of course.
The DFH 60-minute clone I brewed was using Yooper's recipe. It's the most popular thread in the IPA database on this website, with more than twice as many replies as the next-closest recipe (Bell's Two Hearted). It's been viewed 365,000 times and is rated 5 stars.
If it turns out to be "turd sauce in a bottle," then it's pretty well-reviewed, and thus I can only assume that DFH 60 Minute IPA itself also tastes like "turd sauce in a bottle."
GrogNerd
mean old man
which leads us to believe that "turd sauce in a bottle" must be pretty effin' tasty
All of these reasons resonate with me, especially number one. A friend of mine lived in Wisconsin and I was introduced to New Glarus brewery. I am a huge fan of Moon Man and their Black Top IPA. For me it involves traveling three states to get their craft because they don't distribute beyond WI, and have stated on their website that they have no desire to distribute past WI. If I want New Glarus, I must travel or clone my own. Within hours I was trying to find a recipe.
Since then, my desire to clone it has faded somewhat, partly because of the difficulty in finding anything about the actual hop blend they're using and my own misgivings that it'll even be possible for me to source the ingredients or get it right. Pliny the Elder is another one that sounds very tasty, and I'd be happy to brew a clone - knowing full well it's not the beer that is sold commercially for something close.
This discussion about clones brings to mind an article I recently read about folks who try to recreate movie props, in this particular example, Han's DL-44 blaster. Similar to brewing, it's very difficult if not impossible to precisely clone the prop. Instead of malt, mashing, yeast, and process differences they are faced with the challenge of inadequate source material and a virtually infinite number of parts to draw from to try to get it just so. But they really don't want the prop to be a perfect replica - stage props are imperfect and often incomplete because it only has to look correct in context of the shot. They don't make perfectly detailed stage props because they'll be thrown around, dropped, broken, and generally take abuse. These props will even vary between movies in a series, or for different shots. The most accurate props are used for publicity shots and even then they will vary between individual units. What a replica builder is really trying to recreate is what they think the prop looked like. What their imagination built for them as they watched the movie. What their imagination built is probably better than the actual prop recorded on film.
While the replica creators goals may change as we move into 1080 and 4k movies, for me cloning resembles making prop replicas (especially of older films). I'm not so much interested in cloning exactly what the brewery released as I am in recreating what I remember drinking. I suspect my memory of that first Moon Man is better than what was actually in that bottle.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
All I can say is that I have no evidence to the contrary.
Similar threads
