2 stage fermentation recommended "secondary" ??
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At this point, I think that the secondary fermenter is recommended due to an extended "aging" that would benefit the beer, mainly from a flavor standpoint, which would in turn free up your primary fermenter for a second brew. If it works for you, you can do all of the fermentation in one vessel.
It is what works for you.
It is what works for you.
I am surprised the kit directions these days still recommend secondary, although it does depend on your recipe, generally you can skip the secondary and the beer will actually benefit from being in the primary longer.
The answer really depends on 2 things. 1) What the beer is. If it is something huge like a Barleywine which will be in the fermenter for months, it is best to transfer to secondary. 2) If you don't have enough primary fermenters and do have a secondary go ahead and transfer.
For average beers there is no real need to use a secondary.
There are still some who feel they get a cleaner beer by doing a secondary.
For average beers there is no real need to use a secondary.
There are still some who feel they get a cleaner beer by doing a secondary.
MadMarty911
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Is the point of doing a secondary to remove/filter some of the particulate. Just seems to me that you can ( if materials are available to you) to just leave what you have in the primary and leave it longer and do a different batch in another one. Or are the clearing properties worth doing a secondary? Thanks from a N00b!!
Justintoxicated
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I'm wondering if I should move my beer into a secondary today. Being my first beer, I poured all of the break material hops etc into the primary (in my case a 6.5 gallon glass carboy). I read that this can caused off flavors if left too long, so I was thinking to transfer it into a secondary. It's been 8 days and I haven't seen any bubbling int he airlock for at least 3 days and the krausen layer has sunk back into the beer (although there is some thin foam on the top still). I was going to do a hydrometer check then more than likely transfer to a secondary glass carboy (5 gallon).
Would this be a good idea due to my error of leaving in the break material and hops in the primary?
I don't want to open the primary (well unplug the stopper anyways) for no reason.
Would this be a good idea due to my error of leaving in the break material and hops in the primary?
I don't want to open the primary (well unplug the stopper anyways) for no reason.
The are a couple main reasons for transferring into a secondary. The first thing is that it is recommended if it needs to sit for longer than 4 weeks. The trub in the bottom of the primary can lead to off flavors if sitting longer than a month. Another reason is, it should give you a clearer beer because when transferring you leave the trub in the primary and more particles will settle out in the secondary. I personally use a secondary to free up my primary, I have 2 secondaries which allows me to brew, wait a 12 days then transfer. I can start my next brew right away, another 12 days I will move that into my other secondary and then I can start my 3rd batch In 2 weeks and enjoy the fruits of 3 flavors of beer in a about a month after that.
According to many experienced brewers here, that's not necessarily true. Many people are having a lot of success with primaries lasting several months.
lewishowardm3
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I just use a primary as I don't have a lot of room in my house. I also dry hop in the primary but each to there own.
There are hundreds of threads on this and other sites referencing primary and secondary vessels, ad nauseum!
The only thing that I will add and that's very important is that whatever you choose to do you DO NOT MOVE the beer until you verify fermentation IS COMPLETE, the rest is completely your own decision and what works bet for you
The only thing that I will add and that's very important is that whatever you choose to do you DO NOT MOVE the beer until you verify fermentation IS COMPLETE, the rest is completely your own decision and what works bet for you
Tyru007
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For most ales, I will only use a primary fermentor and will bottle/keg after two weeks. My beers are very clear with no chill haze and no off flavors. I contribute this to several things I do during brewing:
I prepare a 1-2 liter starter the day before with a lot of aeration to get a good population of active yeast
Whirlfloc in the last 10-15 minutes of the boil to coagulate any protiens
Immersion wort chiller to get a good hot and cold break and cool the beer quickly.
Once cooled, I pour the entire contents into a glass carboy and I let it sit for about an hour. The protiens and hop particles floc and form a trub at the bottom with a very clear layer of wort on the top. I then rack off the top layer into my primary fermentor, aerate and pitch yeast. This will leave behind all the protiens that could redissolve into the beer and cause chill haze and off flavors and also allows me to reuse the yeast cake from the primary fermentor without very little trub material getting transfered.
I don't get wound up about the hour or so that fermentation is not occurring as I pitch a large healthy amount of yeast. Fermentation is usually very active within 6-8 hours.
A temperature controller with immersion probe keeps the fermentation at temperature.
After around 7-10 days i will raise the temperature to 68 deg F for a 3 day diacetyl rest then keg/bottle condition.
I prepare a 1-2 liter starter the day before with a lot of aeration to get a good population of active yeast
Whirlfloc in the last 10-15 minutes of the boil to coagulate any protiens
Immersion wort chiller to get a good hot and cold break and cool the beer quickly.
Once cooled, I pour the entire contents into a glass carboy and I let it sit for about an hour. The protiens and hop particles floc and form a trub at the bottom with a very clear layer of wort on the top. I then rack off the top layer into my primary fermentor, aerate and pitch yeast. This will leave behind all the protiens that could redissolve into the beer and cause chill haze and off flavors and also allows me to reuse the yeast cake from the primary fermentor without very little trub material getting transfered.
I don't get wound up about the hour or so that fermentation is not occurring as I pitch a large healthy amount of yeast. Fermentation is usually very active within 6-8 hours.
A temperature controller with immersion probe keeps the fermentation at temperature.
After around 7-10 days i will raise the temperature to 68 deg F for a 3 day diacetyl rest then keg/bottle condition.
I fixed the quote. It won't lead to off flavors, but it will change the flavor of the beer. Many folks like these flavors, others do not, and still others don't care. To me, taste is the primary reason to use a secondary. Try it both ways and see which you prefer. Both are perfectly valid techniques. Some folks prefer scrambled eggs, some prefer them over easy. Both are perfectly good ways to cook an egg.
Beers will clear about the same in a primary compared to in a secondary. In a secondary however, it is easier to avoid picking up extra trub when packaging. If you tend to be "sloppy" when transfering your beer, then you might want to use a secondary to limit trub pick up. If you can avoid the trub with your siphoning then feel free to leave it in the primary if you want
Actually, in the old days, the yeast bought from a home brew store wasn't as healthy as it is today. So after fermentation was complete you had alot of dead yeast. So, you moved your beer to a secondary to get it off of the dead yeast. This is the primary reason for a secondary. Today's yeast is very healthy and this no longer absolutley necessary for that reason.
Secondly, yes, it helps to clear your beer faster.
Even though you see no bubbling, some of the yeast are still working to clean up the mess they left behind. The stuff that can cause off flavors. So, it's actually beneficial to leave your beer on the yeast after fermentation is complete.
there are hundreds of threads on this and other sites referencing primary and secondary vessels, ad nauseum!
The only thing that i will add and that's very important is that whatever you choose to do you do not move the beer until you verify fermentation is complete, the rest is completely your own decision and what works bet for you
+1
The yeast really need some of this stuff to much on.
Why not just use the container you are going to secondary in for a primary for the new batch and skip moving the first batch into the secondary?
Tyru007
Well-Known Member
Never had a stuck, stalled or non complete fermentation using this method. If anything, most of my fermentations are so vigorous that they come out the airlock. The attenuation is usually on the high side.
IMO, most of the sugars, macro and micro nutrients along with some lipids and fatty acids for cell wall material are already in solution. The insoluble protiens, fatty acids, cellulose and other organic matter in the remaining breaks are mostly unusable or unneeded by the yeast (or at least you don't want it to use it).
According to several research articles, unless you cool to about 32 deg F, there is still alot of cold break left in solution (*about 40% at 68 deg F).
This is not an argument but a difference in opinion.
Tyru007
Well-Known Member
A couple of interesting quoted from Jamil Z and George Fix on the subject:
"It is IMPOSSIBLE to remove ALL of the cold break without getting the wort to near freezing and then filtering the wort. Yes, removing ALL of the cold break is a bad thing, mainly because it removes the nucleation sites and the CO2 builds up to a higher level.
Fix had done some interesting tests on this very thing and determined that you want to remove the cold break. Me, I tried a few batches half and half from the same wort and decided the non-break batches were far cleaner and more stable."
"The thing about the yeast synthesizing sterols from break material is that it is a last ditch effort for the yeast. If there isn't enough O2 for the yeast to start, and not enough cells to start, the yeast run out of the sterols needed to keep the cell walls pliant. They struggle fermenting and as they scrounge up the nutrients needed to keep going from the break material, this is where you see those slow, barely chugging along ferments. It happens, but it is far from ideal. And again, there is enough in there even when you cannot see any. If you see big chunks of break material in the fermenter, then that is more than you really need, even for this last ditch effort by the yeast."
"It is IMPOSSIBLE to remove ALL of the cold break without getting the wort to near freezing and then filtering the wort. Yes, removing ALL of the cold break is a bad thing, mainly because it removes the nucleation sites and the CO2 builds up to a higher level.
Fix had done some interesting tests on this very thing and determined that you want to remove the cold break. Me, I tried a few batches half and half from the same wort and decided the non-break batches were far cleaner and more stable."
"The thing about the yeast synthesizing sterols from break material is that it is a last ditch effort for the yeast. If there isn't enough O2 for the yeast to start, and not enough cells to start, the yeast run out of the sterols needed to keep the cell walls pliant. They struggle fermenting and as they scrounge up the nutrients needed to keep going from the break material, this is where you see those slow, barely chugging along ferments. It happens, but it is far from ideal. And again, there is enough in there even when you cannot see any. If you see big chunks of break material in the fermenter, then that is more than you really need, even for this last ditch effort by the yeast."
The yeast trub at the bottom of the primary is dormant, but there is still plenty of yeast in suspension, working at cleaning up things as you said. It is not necessary to leave the beer in the primary to get this benefit, as all the active, suspended yeast will be transferred to the secondary.
BronxBrew
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The yeast trub at the bottom of the primary is dormant, but there is still plenty of yeast in suspension, working at cleaning up things as you said. It is not necessary to leave the beer in the primary to get this benefit, as all the active, suspended yeast will be transferred to the secondary.
Butt... for reason, going to a secondary really isn't needed. Im the OP and can understand why some may do it. But for me and my confined space it isn't ideal. If i can get away with putting a whirlfloc tab in, whats the point ? id rather not disturb whats going on and risk infection if i can.
The yeast trub at the bottom of the primary is dormant, but there is still plenty of yeast in suspension, working at cleaning up things as you said. It is not necessary to leave the beer in the primary to get this benefit, as all the active, suspended yeast will be transferred to the secondary.
I think what you mean to say is it's not necessary to move your beer to a secondary.
It is not necessary to move it to secondary, on the other hand it is not necessary to leave it in the primary. That depends on your tastes buds.
If you find that you like the flavors you get with a secondary but are afraid of contamination/oxidation you will figure out a way to avoid these issues if the flavors are that important to you. If they aren't, don't bother.
Well, no, it's not necessary, but that wasn't my point at all. You are right to point out the benefit of the additional time for the yeast to do their stuff on the beer. My point is, you will get the same benefit whether you leave the beer in the primary OR transfer it to a secondary. This is because its the active yeast that do the work, not the yeast in the trub, and the active yeast will be transferred to the secondary with the beer.
The pros and cons of secondary fermentation are nicely summed up in this sticky; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/vs-pro-con-analysis-109318/.
lewishowardm3
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stevedis said:Well, no, it's not necessary, but that wasn't my point at all. You are right to point out the benefit of the additional time for the yeast to do their stuff on the beer. My point is, you will get the same benefit whether you leave the beer in the primary OR transfer it to a secondary. This is because its the active yeast that do the work, not the yeast in the trub, and the active yeast will be transferred to the secondary with the beer.
The pros and cons of secondary fermentation are nicely summed up in this sticky; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/vs-pro-con-analysis-109318/.
Just looked through this thread, and it has answered a lot of questions. Cheers
Seems like you just like to argue. Answering "It's not necessary to leave it in the primary" to a statement that "it's not necessary to transfer to a secondary" sounds so adolescent.
You have to have a primary. You don't have to have a secondary.
Then why bother unless you have a specific reason. (i.e. long term conditioning, lagering, adding fruit, you want to "free up" your primary)
Because they result in two different tasting beers. That is a pretty big reason to chose one method over the other. This is what the article in BYO showed. Primary only beers tasted different from those that utilized a secondary. These are not huge difference by any means, yet the tasters had clear preferences and were evenly split as to which method they preferred.
My "argument" is to try them both and see which you prefer. Either way is a perfectly acceptable way to ferment your beer. You do not need to leave your beer in primary for an extended time to make good beer. However if you like the flavors you get doing it that way, then by all means do it that way.
+1
I only have 1 6 Gallon primary and 2 have 5 gallon secondaries. I have mainly used wyeast packs and found that the fermentation almost fills the whole 6 Gallon primary, with the krausen. I guess I could use a blowoff hose in a 5 Gallon but I never really have thought about it. I am fairly new to brewing and read How to Brew by John Palmer before I started, and was concerned with off flavors, if left sitting to long ( based on what was written). You have peaked my interest though, so I might brew 2 batches and try it both ways letting 1 batch it sit in 1 the primary and transfer the other batch and compare.
Gotcha
A very good book and highly recommended. Keep in mind, how early the book was written and even Palmer will admit there have been changes over the years.
With that being said, I hope you have bought the book and aren't reading the free version.
If you have the book, on page 90 where there is talk about secondary, don't focus on the negative aspects of the primary. The 3rd paragraph talks about the controversy of racking to a secondary amongst "Seasonsed" homebrewers. And the 5th paragraph states " Leaving an ale in the primary fermenter for a total of two to THREE weeks, instead of just one, will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. The extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and esier pouring."
With the healthier yeast we get from Wyeast and WhiteLabs, there is little chance of off flavors from dead yeast these days.
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